really cloudy water

[tarak]

at pool opening we had superbly greenish brown water, we tried everything from algae eliminater to vacuuming, to 10 bags of shock plus, you name it, water started to turn over, but then we had issues with pump motor, and algae took over again. Motor replaced and the battle of algae began again, So I drained pool 1/2 way took sample of water to pool store and they gave me a bunch of crap to dump in after I refilled and NOTHING, so I read online that you couldn't overshock a pool, so that's what I did I went to a local store and bought cases of liquid shock and started with 4 gallons the first night, and the next morning I had blue cloudy water, then the next day another 4 gallons and the next morning just a little bit better, that was over a week ago.

Now I am stuck with extremely cloudy water and nothing seems to help, my ph keeps dropping and my chlorine tabs seem to just keep getting ate up, I don't know what to do, please help

I have a 24 ft round above ground 4ft deep vinyl liner sand filter

[Watermom]

First of all, we need some good current water testing numbers to be able to help. Go see if your local Walmart has an HTH 6-Way drops kit (NOT test strips) and test your water. If they don't, at least pick up a cheap OTO/Phenol Red kit (yellow and red drops). Also, get a jug of distilled water, a bunch of jugs of their generic 8.25% bleach and two or three boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax (laundry aisle).

Repost with some numbers and when you do, also tell us:
-- exactly what all you have put in the pool, meaning ingredients and not just product names
-- what size pump you have (hp)
-- what size filter you have (how much sand does it hold)
-- what your source of fill water is (a well or city water)

Then, someone here can try and help.

[PoolDoc]

Tara, without the information W-M asked for I can't be sure, but your problems are typical of AG pool owners with sand filters. There's nothing wrong with sand filters, though. The problem is that dealers sell big pumps, which cost the same as small AG pumps, as a 'feature', but supply small sand filters, since the big ones cost more.

The combination of a big pump with a little sand filter does 2 things:
1. It blows some of the sand out the drain every time you backwash, &
2. It forces dead algae THROUGH the filter, instead of allowing the filter to catch the algae.

The typical quick fix involves:
1. Replacing the lost sand.
2. Installing a valve BETWEEN the pump and the filter so you can slow the flow.

The long term fix involves replacing or reworking your pump.

The QUICKEST fix is to drain 3/4 of your pool and then refilling. It will STILL be somewhat cloudy, but you'll be able to swim while you work on your other problems.

I should note that there are other possible problems, such as adding "Metal Free" and a polyquat algaecide to the same pool, or adding large amounts of alkalinity increaser and calcium increaser at the same time. But the algae / filter issue is the most common.

. . . membership upgraded.

[tarak]

our pump is a Hayward power flo lx pump Hp1.5
the sand filter I believe holds 150lbs at least that's what it looks like it says on the side it is a V series

about 2 weeks ago when we had major algae and pool was severely green we had tried aqua chem algae elimanator and it didn't do anything, I also bought shock plus from walmart a total of 10 bags and nothing, so we drained the pool 1/2 way took sample to pool store and they gave us, I don't even remember what they gave us we filled added didn't work, still had green algae filled water.....I went to a local mom and pop store, they had liquid shock, I put 4 gallons in the pool and left it running o filter all night and by morning we had blue cloudy water, that night I added another 4 gallons and water was a little bluer but still cloudy, I took sample in to pool store they said ph was low everything else good, add 8lbs of baking soda and 5 ozs of clarifier ad that should do the trick......24 hrs later.......nothing.......so after another 24hrs I added another 5ozs like they said and again nothing, that was a week ago today. Yesterday I got in the pool and spent 3 hrs vacuuming every inch of it, only got out a small amount of leaf debris and there were very few slippery spots, I'm not even getting anymore free floating dead algae, BUT I did find a quarter on the bottom of the pool if that matters, last night I added a bag of shock that is meant to treat 24000 gal n my pool is only 14000 and still no change.
I only have the test kit that came with our pool and when we tested this morning the BR/CL was 3.4-1.5 and the ph was 7.6-7.8 range
I also pulled the ladder out and scrubbed that bad boy down with bleach
when I got in to vacuum yesterday I couldn't see waist down, excuse my babbling I'm an extreme newbie, we just got the pool last year this is our first opening after a winter
thank you

[Watermom]

Go to Walmart and see if they have an HTH 6-Way test kit (NOT 6-Way test strips). Also, buy a bunch of jugs of their 8.25% bleach, a jug of distilled water and a couple of boxes of Borax.

Your pump and filter are very much mismatched. The pump is too big for your pool and the sand filter is too small for that pump. The problem is that the pump forces algae through the filter without filtering it out. It is probably also blowing sand out every time you backwash so your sand may be low which also would affect the function of the filter.

Post numbers tomorrow and let us know if you were able to find the 6-Way kit. Also, tell us if the pool is green at all anymore or just bluish and cloudy. Run the pump 24/7 right now and backwash the filter as needed.

[tarak]

went to walmart yesterday and they did not have the hth 6 way test kit, seemed to be sold out of them all except strips, so I'm stuck with what I have for now....I will go back again in the morning and pick up the bleach, distilled water, and borax, could you please specify the exact amount I should get and how much I should put in the pool at a time? I want to do it properly. thank you!!
also about the pump and filter, the original pump we got with the pool last year was a smaller one and failed working it was under warranty and they had to replace, this is the one they gave us, they said that it's the one they are using now.
and as for the current color of the water it is blue, no more green and no more algae, I'm not even getting the dead algae floating around anymore, I do believe I have killed it all off

[PoolDoc]

Maybe, 6 gallons of PLAIN 8% bleach; 2 boxes of borax, and 1 gallon of distilled water. Try to find a 2-way OTO/phenol red drops kit, too.

Till you get things worked out, adding 1/2 gallon of bleach each evening should 'keep' your pool.

[tarak]

what is the borax and distilled water for?

[PoolDoc]

Borax increases your pH without screwing up other things -- if you have low pH, you want to fix that ASAP since it can tear up your pool.

Distilled water is for pH testing (and later, CYA testing, if you have high CYA). Phenol red pH tests only work up to 5 ppm of chlorine (10 ppm with the Taylor kits), but you can dilute pool water with distilled, lowering the chlorine, but not changing the pH much.

[tarak]

ok I went to 2 walmarts and both are sold out of the HTH 6 way all they had were the 3 way, which I already have, I picked up the borax and the bleach came home and tested the water my ph is reading 6.8 or below, BR is 0.4 CL is 0.2
The water is very blue but still very cloudy, I know I need to add the borax to bring up the ph but how much do I add? AND do I add it directly to the water or do I mix with fresh water then add to pool? also do I add the 1/2 gallon of bleach at the same time or do I wait awhile then add?
I've already backwashed 3 times today, and it's been 48 hrs since I have added anything to my pool water.
it's been a pretty beautiful sunny hot day here in Tn so I know I need to wait a bit while the sun goes down some before I add anything.
thank you so much for all your help so far!!!

[Pappy]

You can ignore the BR (BROMINE) number of the test kit. Add a box of borax SLOWLY to the skimmer, if you have one. If not you can just pour it around the pool. Also put a quart to quart and a half bleach in. Borax and bleach don't react badly so you can do one right after the other. About an hour after adding Borax, check your pH again and keep adding 1/2 box at a time until your pH is at least 7.2, low pH can damage liners.

Pappy

[tarak]

alrighty, added 1 full box of borax and quart and a half of the bleach and readings are as follows exactly 1 hr after
ph 7.8 according to my eyes
ph 8.2 according to my husbands eyes
CL 1.5 we both agree

[Pappy]

What does your water look like now? Any green tint at all? I'd probably add at least another quart of bleach if there has been NO GREEN for 2 days. If there's been any trace of green, I'd go 2 more quarts. Have you dome the DE test? http://pool9.net/de-test/

Many of the local Walmarts stock this
http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-D.E-Filter-Aid-10-lb/20434370
The picture is WRONG. Description is accurate.

[tarak]

I Haven't had any green in over a week if not longer, my pool water is clean, it's REALLY blue, just very cloudy, I have not done a DE test, I have pretty good pressure when it's running and when I backwash......my issue is getting the water to clear

[PoolDoc]

I deleted my irrelevant post -- I'd had this thread open for several hours, and didn't refresh before I posted.

Anyhow, good on the pH. It's a bit high, but it may drop and it's not an urgent problem in any case.

[tarak]

that's fine PoolDoc totally understandable, what should my next step be as to getting the water to clear up, it really is a beautiful blue but cloudy beautiful blue. My funds have are beginning to get depleted just on the pool alone :(
But I am determined to get my lil ones swimming

[Pappy]

If you put about 1/4 cup of DE into the skimmer and it doesn't shoot out of the returns, you know your filter is working, and will eventually get the pool cleaned up. The DE will help your filter work better, but you'll have to backwash more often. I always add a little DE to my skimmer after I backwash. Also, if the water is clear enough that you can see the bottom, it's fine to go swimming. Dead algae is harmless to people and keeping it stirred up helps get it into the filter. Just be sure you can't loose sight of someone in the cloudy water.

Pappy

[tarak]

no we cannot see the bottom at all

[Pappy]

OK. Try the DE. It is about $11 for 10 lbs in the Dallas Tx area. That much will last you - on your current pool - for about 60 years (OK, maybe not really 60, but really MANY years), and it doesn't ever go bad.

[PoolDoc]

The DE is a good idea, but watch the pool return, where water re-enters the pool. If you see DE being sprayed out into your pool, your filter probably needs more sand.

[tarak]

ok headed out to get DE let's hope my always understocked walmart has it, tested water an hr and half ago and ph was at a 7.6 and CL was a lil higher than ideal
water still cloudy and not being able to see the bottom I backwashed and it didn't look to bad from what I could see.
quick question.....if/when I find DE do I mix it with anything or add straight to skimmer? do I remove skimmer basket? sorry that was 2 :)

[Watermom]

Just put it into the skimmer basket. It will quickly get sucked into your filter.

If you can't see the bottom of your pool, it is a real safety issue to let children swim. It only takes a few seconds......

[tarak]

None of the walmarts in my area carry the hth de I'm at home depot and they have pool time de in a lg 25lb box or another brand called safer that's in their pesticide section are either of these acceptable? I'm thinking of checking Lowes

[PoolDoc]

Get the pool DE from any location that has it. Do NOT get the pesticide grade, since it may not be the same particle size.

[tarak]

got it from Lowes AquaChem DE media and filter aid ( but good lord 24lbs ) gonna last a lifetime
1/4 cup right into skimmer basket alrighty here goes nothing

ps
watermom I promise I'm not letting the littles in, their hating on me for it, but they'll live

[tarak]

alrighty I backwashed it was clean, I added 1/4 cup of DE straight to skimmer and nothing came out
and my water is still cloudy
what do you guys think of adding clarifier I have 2 different kinds
1. 10ozs of Bioguard improve polysheen blue ( someone gave me)
2. 14ozs left of Natural chemistry Clear 4 in 1 Clarifier all natural ( that I bought from pool store) used 10ozs of previously did nothing

[PoolDoc]

Add a couple of cups of DE. If the DE stays in your filter, it will help filter out whatever is in your pool -- but you'll have to backwash more frequently.

Polysheen won't hurt . . . if you haven't used any OTHER sort of clarifier in the past 2 weeks. There can be some bad interactions that make things worse, instead of better.

More DE would be safest.

[tarak]

ok I'll go put about 2 more cups of the DE in I'll wait on the clarifier for about a day or 2 cause it's been about a week and half since I used that stuff from the pool store.....I'll let ya know how I make out.
Thank you soooo much for all your help

[tarak]

back quickly I know, I put 1 cup in and noticed a little coming out of the return so I turned and looked at the speed meter and the psi had jumped to 18 when it always stays at 15 or below, so I didn't add the 2nd cup and I backwashed and it was really dirty
what does this mean?

[Watermom]

Do it again and watch the returns again.

BTW -- Many of us often use a little DE in our sand filters on a routine basis, not necessarily for testing to see if the filter is working properly but just for the little extra it can give in filtration. As you found, the pressure goes up quickly. You just have to learn how much to put in for your setup so that you only get that slight increase.

More about this here: http://pool9.net/de-test/

(That is not a speed meter; it is a pressure gauge.)

[tarak]

the article in the link says to mix with pool water, but previous comments here say to put directly into skimmer, which is the correct way?

[tarak]

took another cup out, added 3/4 then 1/4 nothing came out of return that I saw and pressure only jumped to 16, Then I backwashed, I'm now adding more water cause all the backwashing I've been doing lately has brought my level down

[Watermom]

You can mix it in some water first.

[tarak]

I didn't I just put it directly in and at 1:30 this is what I did

took another cup out, added 3/4 then 1/4 nothing came out of return that I saw and pressure only jumped to 16, Then I backwashed, I'm now adding more water cause all the backwashing I've been doing lately has brought my level down

[Watermom]

Ok. Sounds like your filter is working properly. Sometimes the pressure rise isn't immediate. I know when I put it into my filter, I might not see the pressure rise for 20 or 30 minutes. You can continue to use it. It may help to clear your water.

[tarak]

Just a quick mention, our water was so cloudy that we couldn't see the bottom of the pump when you looked in it, I was just out there and for some reason I looked at it and I could actually see the whole basket in there and even the bottom, then I looked over the pool REALLY good and I think I'm beginning to see what looks like our 3rd step, I wonder if this is a sign of good things, or just wishful thinking on my part :)

[tarak]

Thanks Watermom, You all have been such a wonderful help, I was so lucky to have found this forum, I was at my wits end and feeling helpless, now I feel like the kids will be swimming soon.
How often should I be adding the DE? I don't wanna over or under do it.
I will be testing PH and CL again this evening and adding borax and bleach as necessary.
thank you again

[PoolDoc]

Add DE after each backwash.

[tarak]

ok todays totals of DE have included 1/4 cup nothing from return no pressure increase, 1 cup a lil out of return and a pressure increase from 15 to 18, 3/4 cup immediately followed by 1/4 cup with a slow pressure increase to 16, 3/4 with a pressure increase to 18
I just now tested my water it's 7:30pm here in Tn and my Ph is holding at 7.6 and my CL is at 1.0 maybe a lil higher, I haven't added anything other than the DE since last night(when I added borax and bleach) and water is still cloudy, it's been 1 week since adding any clarifer( per my comments with pooldoc earlier about clarifer)

[PoolDoc]

You gotta understand, clearing water even with an IDEAL pump and filter is not a fast process.

The large country club pool I service has (3) 72" filters, for a total of 85 sft sand surface area. Your filter probably has about 0.8 sft. So, while this pool has about 18x as much water, it has 105x as much filter area. That would be like putting SIX pumps and filters on your pool, instead of one! And it would STILL takes a week to go from slimy green to mostly clear.

You're in a situation where the only fast fix is to drain and refill! This is why I tell people constantly that it's so much easier to avoid algae than to clean it up.

Pool stores LOVE this, because they probably sell 2/3 or even 3/4 of their chemicals cleaning up messes. And the most profitable sales come when pool owners "just can't take it any more" and buy expensive stuff that promises miracles. Of course, the products don't do what they promise, but there are so many 'flavors' of miracle products out there, that the pool store can sell you a new one every month for 10 seasons!

Anyhow, adding DE to your sand filter helps filter fine particles out, that otherwise will go through the Intex filter. But you don't need to backwash every hour. Let the pressure rise at least 6 or 7 pounds before you backwash.

Good luck!

[tarak]

Thank you again for all your help!
I know I sound impatient, but really I just want to make sure I'm doing everything right, I've only bought like 3 items from the pool store then I realized " yeah ya'll are full of it" and started doing my own research and talking to other pool owners, that's how I was able to get rid of the algae on my own, then I found you guys and learned a lot more, like using borax and bleach and DE.
Like I said before we are TOTAL newbies this our first year opening after a winter, the pool was installed late june of last year so yeah total newbie :) but trust me I've definitely been schooled and won't be visiting the pool store again unless I absolutely have too.
Again I can't thank you enough for your help and appreciate all you do for us pool owners old and new :)

[PoolDoc]

You're more than welcome.

I just wanted to head off that "gotta do something NOW!" impulse we see hit pool owners every summer.

[tarak]

totally understand, trust me I felt that way especially with the algae I went straight panic mode, but when I found the liquid shock and it worked I was like ohhhh yeahhhh but then the cloudy water hit and I went ohhhh nooo, but then like I said I found you guys.
I'm a full of questions person, sometimes I ask a question then remember something and have to ask another and that makes me seem impatient ( it also doesn't help when I have 4 littles yapping in my ear daily about "is the pool ready") But I get it, it takes time and I got it this far.
I'll keep up with the DE, I'll keep checking my ph and keep hoping for the best.
I'll check back with you guys in the next day or 2 unless some crazy question pops in my head :)
but for now I believe I am on the right track
Thank you again and have a great evening!

[Watermom]

This must be a record. In a 40 post thread, I can't believe that neither one of us has suggested that you get a Taylor K2006 test kit. You need it. Nowhere in this thread has a CYA level been mentioned because you have no way to test for it. It is a critical piece of the puzzle. You won't be able to buy this kit locally but can order it through this link:> http://pool9.net/tk/

A chlorine reading of 1ppm is way too low.

[tarak]

unfortunately Watermom I'm unable to get that kit at this time

[tarak]

is there another way to test for the cya? something I should add to the pool? I currently have chlorine tabs in the floaters and it's been 2 days at least since I've added any bleach
tested the water this morning
ph holding at 7.6
cl still looks to be at 1.0 or maybe a little higher

[Watermom]

Tara,
Call around to the pool stores in your area. Ask them if they test CYA by doing the "disappearing black dot" test. No matter what they tell you, that is the only method to test CYA accurately. If someone does do it that way, then go and have them test your CYA for you. But, do not let them talk you into buying anything. They will try!

[tarak]

We only have 1 pool store here I just called ( surprisingly they answered, they never do) she was hesitant to answer but answered with a no

[tarak]

Good morning!
Bright and early I started on the pool, I'm very determined :)
backwashed and put a cup of DE in
tested water
ph is 7.6 maybe a lil higher
CL 1.5 if not maybe a lil higher ( the yellow in the tube is really bright) I added a lil more than a 1/2 gal of bleach last night
I plan on getting in and doing some vacuuming this afternoon after my appts, I figure between the vacuum and myself stirring things up that might help to get things moved along. agree? disagree?

I also noticed that when the pressure reaches 19 after adding the DE the flow of water from the return drastically decreases to almost nothing, is this normal?

[PoolDoc]

Good morning, Tara.

WaterMom and I have discussed your situation, and I'm afraid we're going to sign off on this thread. Our ability to help people with their pools depends on us having reasonably accurate knowledge of the condition of the water in your pool. The problem is, we really don't have that information about your pool. We're sympathetic to your budget situation, but our sympathy doesn't change the facts.

And the fact is, we don't know what your CYA level is, and only have approximate ideas about your chlorine levels. We've tried the usual work-around (the HTH 6-way), which is a short term stop gap measure. And we've even tried the un-usual work-around (dealers who use the melamine test for CYA).

But we've struck out. It's not your fault that none of the Walmarts in your area carry the kit. And it's not your fault that none of the dealers in your area are foolish enough to test water in the accurate, but slow, way. (Accurate testing costs them chemical sales!)

But it's also not our fault that we don't have what we need to help you.

Sorry.

Ben / PoolDoc
.