having possible mustard algae problem 3 weeks now

[bluebayou]

I have an older inground pool with vinyl liner. I have growth that starts as a yellow-brown dust and then spread to to have green under the original dusty spots. The growth is only on the horizontal or sloped surfaces of the pool, not on the sides, and it is in shade or sun.

I went to 20 ppm FC (by estimate) with 11 bags of cal hypo shock. The chlorine level was to 3 the next day and zero the day after. I realized that I had no CYA.

I have added 6 pounds of CYA to try to get to 30 or so (yellowish brown on test strip, not quite brown). I brushed the pool. I added shock to get to 12 ppm and it held above 10 on the test strips for three days. Today it is around 5. The pool has stayed green and cloudy since brushing and now I have growth on the pool floor again.

I am unsure what to do because:
Historically, I have used cal hypo tablets and shock. Last summer I used trichlor tabs and apparently got my CYA out of whack.

Last September I had a pipe break and I didn't try to recover the pool for 5-6 weeks. The pool had very bad green algae. I shocked and shocked, maybe 30 pounds. I realized that my CYA was over 100.

I drained the pool partway and added 15 thousand gallons. I have shocked the pool occasionally over the winter, but had no real problems with the lower temperatures I am guessing.

Basically, I THINK that I need to raise the CYA a little more. I am hesitant to add stabilizer, but am planning on adding more slowly. I THINK that I need to add shock to get up to 20 ppm and maintain it for a few days.

If someone could tell me what to do or tell me what other info you need, I would appreciate it.

[PoolDoc]

1. Go buy a cheap OTO/phenol red drops kit. Use it to maintain your chlorine level in the DARK yellow to orange range.

2. Tell us your pool dimensions, so we can figure doses.

3. Order a K2006 kit, so we can get accurate test results => http://pool9.net/tk/
Before you use it, watch the videos:
http://pool9.net/tk-guide/
http://pool9.net/tk-interfere/ We call test strips 'guess-strips' for a reason, and the CYA measurements are especially inaccurate.

4. Low phosphate levels aren't essential for algae control, but WILL enable you to eradicate it more quickly, and more easily avoid it in the future. BUT, it will probably cost you $100 more, and will require another kit and monitoring another factor. If the money doesn't bother you, get the Taylor phosphate kit when you order the K2006. 4 quarts of the Kem-Tek product should be enough for most IG pools at typical phosphate levels:
Kem-Tek 265-6 Pool and Spa Phosphate Remover, 1 Quart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI04/scouscho-20/)
But, be sure you understand: CHLORINE kills the algae; low phosphates just makes it easier to kill.

5. Read the Cl-CYA page -- it's essential for you to understand that your correct chlorine level is determined by your CYA level:
http://pool9.net/cl-cya/

Good luck!

[bluebayou]

Money is a real problem right now. That is most of my frustration because I spent $100-150 in the last week. I just changed jobs and everything is a mess.

the pool is a vinyl lined 20x40 with roughly 30,000 gallons.

I can't afford the phosphate test and chemicals right now, but I think that a proper test kit would be a good investment.

Unless you say otherwise, then I am thinking shock to 24 and adding more stabilizer to get to 30-50, brown guess, on the test strip over the next few days. Thinking that I will add 3-4 more pounds of stabilizer to see what I read on Thursday


I will reread the Best Guess information.

so, you think that I am going in the right direction?

I have a drop kit right now and it is a strong yellow for the chlorine side.

[PoolDoc]

OK, if you're strapped let's look for alternatives.

In most cases, the cheapest source of chlorine is Sams trichlor -- IF that's available to you. Can you get Sams 40# bucket of trichlor?

If you can, I think I can work out a method using OTO testing and treatment with just bleach, borax and trichlor . . . plus brushing a lot.

[bluebayou]

any advice would be great. Before reading your last reply I shocked with 10 pounds of cal hypo yesterday.

This morning I have visible powdery algae on all horizontal and sloped surfaces. The test strip turned dark purple immediately going into the water. I have never seen such a saturated purple color before. I am pretty sure the chlorine is high.

could this just be pollen and I am flipping out for no reason?

I vacuumed the accumulations of algae. Then I brushed all of the flat surfaces. I am going to brush the sides later this afternoon.

What about turning off the pump to let everything settle and then vacuuming tomorrow morning?

my most immediate problem is that I need results quick because I am going out of town on Saturday and will be gone for 2 weeks. the rest of the family can follow simple instructions, but anything complicated......

[bluebayou]

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq321/bluebayou_2008/20140603_093205_zps4aa62324.jpg (http://s460.photobucket.com/user/bluebayou_2008/media/20140603_093205_zps4aa62324.jpg.html)
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq321/bluebayou_2008/20140603_093305_zps86810d39.jpg (http://s460.photobucket.com/user/bluebayou_2008/media/20140603_093305_zps86810d39.jpg.html)
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq321/bluebayou_2008/20140603_093954_zpsd1db8558.jpg (http://s460.photobucket.com/user/bluebayou_2008/media/20140603_093954_zpsd1db8558.jpg.html)

the last picture is what it looks like when I brush

[PoolDoc]

I'd recommend vacuuming up what's already on the bottom, first. Do this:

1. Your chart says you have a 2 speed pump. Put the pump on LOW speed, and run it 24/7.
2. Make sure the chlorine is STILL very high, and then brush the pool completely, to expose all the algae to chlorine.
3. Check the chlorine an hour later to make sure it's remaining high.
4. Wait 24 hours, and then vacuum up the algae. Stay on low speed. Put a towel over the main drain to block it, if you don't have a valve.
5. Continue to keep the chlorine high. Brush the pool again, if algae remains on any surfaces.
6. Let me know how it goes.


Watch the pool returns -- make sure algae is NOT going through the filter and returning to the pool. If it does, you'll need to get some DE filter powder from Lowes or Home Depot.

[bluebayou]

Yesterday I did as you suggested plus added 24oz of HTH Algae Guard. I rarely use the algae guard, but I am frustrated.

I vacuumed, then checked FC later in day (it was still high), brushed the entire pool (I DID find some green growth on vertical wall in shallow end which is shaded), and then brushed again about 7pm.

The water started to clear about mid afternoon yesterday. This morning it was crystal clear, but I didn't look at the bottom. Today, at 6pm, the water is still crystal clear with fine gray powder (presumably dead algae). BUT, I have the same yellow brown dust in a very thin layer in the shallow end.

I brushed it again. The test strip is still deep purple for FC. I was debating adding more cal hypo shock

its funny that you mention the DE. I was wondering the same thing. the steps into the pool accumulate dust, sand, and the algae. It looks to be blown from the returns mounted in the steps. I don't notice anything around the other returns, but water is a low deeper.

Please tell me that I can add that to the skimmer and not have to crack the filter ope

[PoolDoc]

Yesterday I did as you suggested plus added 24oz of HTH Algae Guard.

I suggested algae guard???? Where did I do that? Algae guard is cheap (well, maybe not, but it should be) foamy algaecide that's not really effective against anything. If I suggested that -- and I'm not seeing it in my posts -- I was having a 'senior moment'!

The purpose of adding DE is first of all, to see if your filter is working properly. If you add DE, and it blows out into the pool, that is pretty much proof that you do, indeed, 'have to crack the filter open' -- an unfortunately painful task on top valve filters.

[bluebayou]

no, you did not suggest the algae guard. I was frustrated and added it. I followed the steps that you suggested, but I ALSO added algae guard.

[Watermom]

NEVER use any algaecide other than 60% Polyquat. So many of them make a foamy mess in your pool that can take a long time to clear up. Besides, algaecide can be a pretty good preventative but once you have algae, don't really help so much.

[PoolDoc]

It just uses up chlorine. It *will* kills some forms of algae, if you add enough. But *enough* = looks like a sink full of dish detergent!

[bluebayou]

I had clear water yesterday and today. Last night I forgot to override the timer and it was off till 100pm this afternoon. The pool is still clear with deep purple on the test strip.

At 300pm, the pool floor was clean. Tonight at 800pm, the pool is accumulating yellow-green dust again. the test strip is still deep purple for FC.

I backwashed the filter even though it was at its normal 18 psi. I the backwash was green and dusty in the sight glass.

I have not purchased any DE. I think that it might be time to open up the filter. There is a leak at the flange clamp. It is leaking water on the backwash and there is a hissing sound when in the filter mode.

Assuming that the filter is 10-15 years old........we have been here 7 years. what is the best course of action at this point?

Add the DE and see if its blowing through or just open up the filter?
Dig out the sand?
Replace the sand? Add more sand? Or just add the DE to the existing?
Pull out the lateral assembly while I have it open?

[PoolDoc]

+ Do NOT open your filter. Do NOT backwash your filter UNLESS there has been a 3 - 5 psi pressure increase.

+ DO get some DE and test your filter immediately!

+ DO get an HTH 6way kit IMMEDIATELY. If you cannot get one, get a local OTO / phenol red it. We *NEED* to be able to test your chlorine at levels above 10 ppm. http://pool9.net/tk-hth6/

+ If you cannot get a 6way, but have to get just an OTO, ORDER a K2006. We *NEED* to know what your CYA level is

+ STOP ignoring our instructions OR I will close this thread. There are other people who we *can* help, because they *are* listening.

[bluebayou]

I am sorry if I offended you. I made a mistake adding the algaecide and I accept that. Otherwise, I just considered my posts as "thinking out loud".

No one has a 6 way kit locally. I have a OTO/Phenol kit and the reading today is shown below.

I do not understand whether you prefer the HTH 6way over the K2006. I will have to order one either way. I will order what you recommend.

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq321/bluebayou_2008/20140606_160132_zps0d775698.jpg (http://s460.photobucket.com/user/bluebayou_2008/media/20140606_160132_zps0d775698.jpg.html)

[Watermom]

Definitely prefer the K2006! Can order it through this link: http://pool9.net/tk/

Another link that may be helpful shows shows you how to interpret OTO readings that are off the scale: http://pool9.net/oto-chart/

[bluebayou]

I got the DE and added one cup mixed with pool water into a skimmer. There was not a visible result from any of the returns.

The FC is at 5 according to the OTO kit.

The k2006 kit is scheduled to arrive on Monday.

Today the pool has a very fine film of rust colored dust around the returns (maybe 3-4 feet around). Otherwise, the pool floor is starting to accumulate the powdery looking algae. It always starts accumulating wherever there are wrinkles in the liner or at the angles where the inclines meet.

[PoolDoc]

OK.

We won't know for sure till you have the K2006, but your pool is acting like you have (a) a very chlorine resistant strain of algae and (b) high levels of stabilizer. Watch the guide videos, especially the one on CYA testing so you'll be able to get a good reading right away.
http://pool9.net/tk-guide/
http://pool9.net/tk-interfere/

The only preference I had for the 6-way was for finding our your CYA level sooner rather than later.

I scanned back through the thread. Without using phosphates, the only other option you have for mustard algae is higher chlorine. I'd recommend dosing till the OTO has an orange tint. As you push levels higher, the risk of liner bleaching increases. But you really don't have any other options.

You *could* use high levels of copper, but the amounts you'd need (unless you used plain copper sulphate) will cost more than treating for phosphates, and will likely stain the heck out of your pool.

Foamy algaecides don't work against mustard, and polyquat is not much better.

You could use the ammonia based products, to generate monochloramine, but your pool water will become very irritating to eyes and skin. And the clean-up is a mess.

Borates may help somewhat preventatively, but I haven't seen any evidence that they will help once the algae is established. And again, establishing an effective 60 ppm borate level would cost more than lowering phosphates.

Just in case you run into them -- there are some anti-mustard algae products that contain sodium bromide. Do NOT try these; they turn your pool into an unstabilized bromine pool for an unknown period of time. Using them will cause your chlorine use to skyrocket and will accomplish nothing you can't already accomplish by raising chlorine levels directly.

[bluebayou]

ugh. I drained down the pool last fall because the test strips were showing over 100 ppm on CYA. It was expensive to refill, but I have to fix this.

The test kit should be here Monday. I am going out of town, but my wife is going to test it. I will post the results ASAP.

(I will not add anything else to the pool till I hear from you)

[PoolDoc]

You probably missed this, buried under all my other verbiage:


I'd recommend dosing till the OTO has an orange tint. As you push levels higher, the risk of liner bleaching increases. But you really don't have any other options.

[bluebayou]

the Taylor kit came today and my wife tested it. it showed CYA at 75ppm. I did not have her to test the chlorine with the Taylor. The test strips showed 3 ppm, however. The pictures that she forwarded me show the pool to have green algae covering the floor surfaces and a greenish tint to the water.

please advise what to do and I will relay the instructions. we have access to bleach and to cal hypo powder locally.
Sorry about the delay, but I left for an out of town two week business trip. that was why I was stressed trying to solve it quickly last week. I have a little additional money coincidentally if I need to replace water or purchase a lot of chlorine.
thanks

[PoolDoc]

Wall algae with CYA=75 ppm?

1. Put your pump on LOW speed.
2. Set your timer to run 24/7
3. Add 5 gallons of PLAIN 8% bleach OR 5 pounds of 68% cal hypo daily . . . ASAP
4. Test with the OTO kit; stop adding chlorine when you read orange tinted yellow; repeat when chlorine drops back to DARK yellow.
5. Brush the algae spots AFTER adding the chlorine.

[bluebayou]

added 5 pounds yesterday around 2pm. OTO was orange tinted around 5pm. is orange tinted still today with no visible change. my wife brushed yesterday and will brush again today. she says that the water is clear with greenish tint. green algae on floor surfaces.

told her to check OTO test again tomorrow morning and to add shock if dark yellow

[PoolDoc]

You may want to test your phosphate level.

I've never been able to discover why, but some pools are prone to recurrent chlorine-resistant mustard algae. For years, I've serviced a large country club pool like this. Even though I treated it like all the other pools, it would develop mustard algae in late summer, and they would not. This past season, I tried using phosphate removers, and it made a huge difference. I can't guarantee the same for you but at this point it's worth a try.

Keep in mind that low phosphate levels SLOW algae growth, and make it more susceptible to chlorine, but do NOT kill it. So using phosphate removers is a 'in-addition' to chlorine, rather than 'in-place' of chlorine!

Phosphate removers vary greatly in quality. The KemTek Phosphate remover appears to offer the most 'bang for the buck', with 1 quart @ $18 removing 2,000 ppb (2 ppm) from 10,000 gallons of water.
Clorox Phosphate Remover (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00IJVBBQ4/scouscho-20/) @ Amazon

The Orenda product PR-10000 is more concentrated and usually cheaper, but more likely to cloud your pool. It's not available through Amazon.

After testing numerous phosphate kits and strips, only the AquaChek and Taylor tests seem to be accurate enough to be useful, and the AquaChek is only helpful once you've greatly reduced the phosphate levels. Both kits are a bit of a pain to use.

Hach (AquaChek) Company 562227 Phosphate Test Kit (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004L4RPW2/scouscho-20) @ Amazon

If you want to pursue this, I'd recommend getting the Taylor kit and a couple of quarts of remover. Have her add one quart as soon as it arrives. When you get back, test the water and add more, if needed.

[bluebayou]

I appreciate your continued help.

The Kem Tek is no longer available from Amazon. I see from the MSDS that the Kem Tek one is 7% lanthanum chloride. The Orenda PR-10000 lists 'proprietary" chemical composition. PHOSfree by Natural Chemistry lists 7-13% lanthanum chloride. Have you heard anything about that one?

It occurred to me that the town switched to a communal well earlier last year. Previously, we were receiving water from a nearby industrial mill. Not that I am assigning blame, but that would explain why we never had an algae problem until last summer.

[PoolDoc]

I just confirmed that Amazon problem. I'm not sure what's going on. I'll check tomorrow with Amazon and Kem-Tek, and see if I can get an answer.

You might check your local Home Depot; some of the carry Kem-Tek products. Mine does not.

[bluebayou]

I am back home. I purchased Phosfree from Natural Chemistry and I purchased the Aqua Chek test kit that you listed. The Phosfree came with a test kit included.

I tested the phosphate level with the both. The Natural Chemistry one shows over 1000 ppm for phosphates. The Aqua Chek one shows at least 300 ppm, maybe a little darker.

The pool is crystal clear right now with powdery green algae in the wrinkled areas in the deep end. small spots of visible algae growth in the shadows of the shallow end.

I am going to vacuum to waste and then see what you want to do.

OTO drops show 5 ppm FC. I read the instructions the other day that high chlorine can affect the phosphate test results, so I told her not to add any yesterday.

[PoolDoc]

I tested the phosphate level with the both. The Natural Chemistry one shows over 1000 ppm for phosphates. The Aqua Chek one shows at least 300 ppm, maybe a little darker.


Interesting.

When I did the side-by-sides with the Taylor and the AquaCheck, I got similar readings below 1000 ppb with both. But above 1000, all the readings from the AquaCheck were the same. I'm some what confident of my results, since I started with tap water (about 3,000 ppb at that location) and did successive dilutions with distilled water. So, even if my starting value was off (not 3,000), I knew that each succeeding result should be 1/2 of the preceding one.

I wouldn't suspect Natural Chemistry of deliberately creating a kit that overstates PO4, but I would suspect them of not caring much when someone pointed it out. After all, having a kit that shows their product as being more effective than it is would help them sell product.

I'll be VERY interested, once you reach PO4<100 ppb, to see what the Natural Chemistry test shows.

BTW, I've revised the phosphate link above. It took me several phone calls to Kem-Tek (KIK) to find out what's going on. Apparently, they are slowly closing out the Kem-Tek brand and replacing it with the Clorox brand -- but KIK is blending and packaging all the products. Their chief chemist told me the products themselves are completely unchanged.

However, because Amazon has not yet distributed the Clorox products to all its warehouses, Amazon is showing the Clorox products as "temporarily unavailable" which apparently means "since we don't have the product in all locations, we don't want you to hold us to our normal shipping standards"!

[bluebayou]

on a side note, the pool filter was off since Thursday around noon apparently. I started the system on "filter" before vacuuming. One return was not functioning. After 10-15 seconds (about the time to realize it and to walk to the return) it started blowing green powder into the pool for 4-5 seconds and then clear water.

otherwise, I am going to use the Phosfree. It says run filter for 48 hours and then to retest.

[bluebayou]

after adding 1.5L of Phosfree 48 hours ago, the AquaCheck test shows about 100 ppm (definitely a bluish tint, but not matching the 200 ppm color). the Natural Chemistry test still shows greater than 1000 ppm.

yesterday, I checked on the pool at 11 am and at 3 pm. there was visibly more of the brownish powder in the shallow end.

It accumulates in the same patterns every time. could it just be a particulate and not living algae? I don't understand where it is coming from if its dead algae. I really don't understand how it could double the visible amount in the course of 4 hours if it was growing.

the powder isnt attached to the floor and it brushes away with movement, but there will be obvious green growth under the powder (sometimes).

Saturday at 8 am there was very little material in the pool and the OTO test showed 10 ppm. Sunday at 3 pm the OTO test was maybe 4 ppm.

I am thinking about increasing my regular FC amount to 6 ppm. previous years I have just been around 3 ppm, but the CYA from test strips was less than 30. 10 ppm seems to be the breaking point for algae growth (not the brown powder, but greenish tint to the water and green algae on the sides and ladder).

[PoolDoc]

1. Order the Taylor kit; using successive dilutions with distilled water, I validated it against the AquaCheck kit, and they correlated well at the lower levels. I'm guessing the Natural Chemistry kit is bogus. Remember, they'll sell more if it consistently reads high! http://pool9.net/tk/.

Tip: get some sticky putty (Scotch brand (www.walmart.com/ip/19675494) @ Walmart) to hold the Taylor test cylinder. It's really tall and easy to tip over. A bit of sticky putty to set it on will make the test go much more smoothly. And use a TIMER for the wait period -- otherwise it's too easy to get impatient.

Regarding the powder - I haven't re-read the whole thread: did we ever suggest, or did you ever do the DE test? It would confirm or eliminate the filter as a source of problems. Plus, if you hand vacuumed the powder while DE was in the filter, you could be sure of capturing the dirt. And, if there is live algae in the pool, it will tend to rapidly stop up the DE and thus your filter, giving another indication. http://pool9.net/de-test/

[bluebayou]

you had me to do the DE test and none came out the returns.

Sunday afternoon I added 3 pounds of 53% cal hypo and 3 cal hypo tablets to the skimmers.
Monday the FC was 10 ppm.

I intentionally did not do anything the pool yesterday. As of right now, 24 hours later, the FC is 5 ppm.
I have new growth on the shady sides and in the deep end. The brown powder is accumulated on the pool floor, but does not have new growth under it.

I think that the powder is dead algae being returned into the pool.

My question is: where is the LIVE algae? if there was active growth some place in the plumbing or filter then would that explain it? I would figure that algae needed sunlight. We do not have lights in the pool. The skimmers could use a cleaning, but no algae visible there.

If I had to estimate then I would say there is one square foot of visible green algae growth TOTAL in the pool right now. But, I have maybe 5-6 square feet of the brown powder at a time.

Would the drop from 10 ppm on Monday to 5 ppm today be normal? Seems too fast to lose that much chlorine with CYA at 75

[PoolDoc]

When mustard algae is breeding, you will lose chlorine faster than normal.

1. Operate your filter 24/7.
2. Keep your chlorine in the ORANGE to orange-tinted DARK YELLOW range.
3. Add 2 - 3 cups of DE powder after EACH backwash. That will stop algae from leaking through.
4. Brush the algae spots after each chlorine boost.

Where did you get 53% cal hypo? What *else* is in it? What's the brand/product name?