Pool Pilot Digital 220 unit - Warning Low Amps - Cell? and Bad Temp Sense

[pacsman]

I have had this unit for 5 years and this is the second SC-48 cell for the unit. The first cell was bad (not getting an chlorine) after the first season and was replaced by the local dealer where I purchased the system. This latest issue started at the end of last season just before I closed the pool for the winter.

The display is reading 28V, 1.4 A (was 28V, 1.7 A last week) and the unit is not producing chlorine, test results below.
I have checked the three fuses, removed them and tested for continuity with a multimeter, all three good.
I have checked all pins in both cables from end to end for continuity and each is good.
Visual inspection of all internal components didn't reveal any signs of burnt wires, popped capacitors, or burnt board components. All connectors reseated. Both fans operating and I can hear the unit click on and off when put in BOOST mode, just as it always has

20'x40', 3' to 8' in ground grecian shaped pool, 28,000 gal, 4 returns, main drain and skimmer, sand filter (new this year - replaced DE filter)
Cell = SC-48
Software Ver 4.2
Power Level = 3 (I just bumped this up last week to see if it made a difference, having been running at power level 2 last three years without issue)
Salt 3400 (pool store tested at 3300)
Actual water temp is at 84 degrees but unit is reporting 75 (again, Bad Temp Sense is one of my issues)
Calcium Hardness = 200
Cyanuric Acid = 0
Total Alkalinity = 100
pH = 7.6
Copper = 0
Iron = 0
Phosphates = 0

I had just cleaned the cell prior to the start of this season, have never had an issue with scale or build-up but did the recommended cleaning anyway. Also cleaned the temp sensor at the same time as my local pool store said that the temp sensor didn't "appear" to be bad. They normaly see signs of the two temperature pickup points being burnt on a bad sensor and they said mine looked fine, recommended cleaning it and trying it again, no change though.

Any thoughts? I don't want to spring for a new cell if there is something wrong with a board or another issue.

[PoolDoc]

. . . membership upgraded.

If you'll look at the bottom of the page, there are a number of threads reporting similar problems. If none are relevant, post again, and I'll ask PoolSean to take a look.

[pacsman]

Thanks for the info. Looks like thread 23752, the first one in the list is my exact problem. Didn't clean the ends of the fuses so will try that and hope that I get the same results.

Thanks for your time in creating and managing this site, very helpful.

[pacsman]

Well, that didn't solve my iussue, no joy here. Cleaned all three of the fuses and still getting the same readings. Also checked the other connections and no corrosion on any of them.

[PoolDoc]

Let me make sure I understand:

1. The cell has been in service for 4 years.

2. The only fault is lack of chlorine production.

3. You have occasional, or regularly, used the BOOST mode.

Is that all correct?

If so, is there reason you aren't thinking that the cell is simply at the end of its life? Are you aware that SWCG cell life is pretty much a straight forward function of "ON" time? And that BOOST mode results in significantly reduced cell life?

[pacsman]

Yes, all is correct. Last year due to the conditions in our area we did use boost more frequetly than in the prior years. I am aware that the life of the cell is limited but wasn't sure how many years I should expect to get from normal use. Having looked around on the internet for others with the same issue, and finding all sorts of reason that the unit may not be functioning, I didn't want to just order up a cell without exploring/investigating all the possibilities.

I also have a church friend whose neighbor uses the same system and was getting similar (not sure if it was exact) messages and it turned out he had three bad diodes on a control board. Once he had the board repaired all was well. Again, I dont know if he had any Voltage or Amperage reading, just that he had the same warning message.

It does appear that my issue may just simply be the cell is at end of life and I need a new one. Just trying to cover all the bases.

So your recommendation would be to purchase a replacement cell? Appreciate your time and feedback.

[PoolDoc]

.
1. Purchase the largest cell that will fit with your system -- a 10,000 hour unit will last 2x as long (in years) if it's used 1/2 as much.

2. Never, ever use BOOST. Use a gallon or two of bleach, instead.

3. Only use your SWCG for NORMAL pool operation -- not for start-up, not for algae, etc. If something's wrong, understand it and fix it manually.

AutoPilot is by no means the worst, but like most 'new and improved' or 'digital' pool equipment, it is often oversold as a complete solution, when in reality it is just a tool with limitations like every other tool. Quite a few people here think the AutoPilot is the best SWCG, but it's still just an SWCG, with all the limitation inherent in the technology.

What SWCG's do well is consistently chlorinate pools that are experiencing normal loads. What they don't do so well, is everything else.

[rcenturion]

my Autopilot cells have lasted around 4-5 years. I use the SC-36

[pacsman]

Thanks for that info. From what I am reading it appears I have been using my system incorrectly and will be making some changes based on above feedback.

[Poolsean]

Sorry to jump in so late, but the information provided in the Original post indicates a warn out cell. Normally the display will show either CHECK/CLEAN CELL or LOW AMPS/CELL?
However, the high volts and lower amps is indicative of a depleted cell, low salt (and the displayed salt needs to be calibrated), or operation during cold water conditions with low salt levels. I would recommended having your water tested to verify the salinity first.
If you remove the cell, inspect for any scale formation on the blades. While you have it out, do the outer blades appear to be worn down along the leading edge of the blades? This is a sign of cell depletion.

[PoolDoc]

Thanks, Sean.

[pacsman]

New information, I replaced the tri-sensor and the cell but now have a different message.
I went with the RC-52 (SC-60) which is the largest my unit will accept. Purchased from saltpoolguys.com.
The tri-sensor was bad and the new one is reporting a temp of 82 degrees which is what the thermometer in the pool is reading.
Salt is reported at 3300ppm which is what the old sensor reported and the same as the pool store measured.
I set the control unit back to power level 1 and changed the cell type to SC-60.
I still have a flashing red light on the control unit and the message now reads "Warning check/clean cell?"
The cell is clean and i dont see anything on any of the blades, all 15 are the same length, Some appear to be newer than others so not sure if the cell may be bad?
when testing the unit I have 17 volts and 2.9 Amps reported on the display.
When i turn the unit on initially, once it runs throught its tests, the purifier states 60% but within about 5 seconds that changes to 48%.
The unit is on and states purifier on 48%

Any thoughts on what could be causing the check/clean cell message?

[BigDave]

I noticed on the first post in this thread that a CYA of 0 is reported. Is that accurate? My understanding is that most SWCG manufacturers recommend a CYA level around 60. I would assume that a SWCG would have a hard time keeping up with the chlorine lost to sunlight.

[pacsman]

I connected with Josh from the saltpoolguys.com site, where I purchased the new cell and tri sensor, concerning the new message I am getting.

After some additional troubleshooting and sharing some pictures of my controller, it appears I have a bad board, specifically 4 of the 6 capacitors are shot and it appears one of the computer chips may have overheated as well.

The board alone is $400+ and the whole controller unit is 600+ and comes with a new cell cable and a two year warranty so I elected to do the whole unit. Awaiting arrival of the unit, should be here Monday, Tuesday at the latest.

At that point I will essentially have a new system and just need to get it back operational. Now if I can just keep the pool stable until I can get this installed the grandbaby can get back in the swim mode.

[PoolDoc]

Sorry for the problems you're having.

But I have question: do you know whether the board problems were caused by a voltage surge?

The reason I ask, we're seeing a number of VS pumps dying because of surges, possibly from thunderstorms. Now that Intermatic has marketed a pool warranted surge protector, I've been recommending that pool owners with VS pumps install one. I hadn't really thought about whether SWCG might also need protection. I would guess that the transformer and power supply might offer protection not present in a VS pump - but I'm only guessing.

So . . . back to my question: do you have any idea what caused the board failure?

Thanks!

[Watermom]

You can keep the pool stable by using bleach until you get your unit up and running. For reference to help you figure out how much to add, in a 28K gallon pool, each 121-oz. jug of Walmart's generic 8.25% bleach will add about 2.8ppm of chlorine to the pool. I don't know what your CYA reading is but if you look at the chart at this link, it will tell you what range you need to keep your chlorine in based on that reading and you can dose with bleach accordingly.

http://pool9.net/cl-cya/

[pacsman]

It's been ten days since I received the new control unit, installed it and got it up and running. The pool is looking good, water is crystal clear and everything appears to be fine.

To answer a previous question asked on this thread regarding a power surge, yes. It does appear that it was a power surge which took out at least the control unit and possible the tri-sensor. Although, everything is connected correctly, properly grounded and there were no blown fuses but I have seen lightning strikes do some very strange things such as pin holes in boots and oil cans. Wondering if I can file any of this expense against my home owner's policy?

I do have some questions as I want to be sure I am using my new system correctly to extend the life of it as much as possible. My current readings and water test results from 6/21/14 are below. Any recommendations to my questions below would be welcome.

20'x40', 3' to 8' in ground Grecian shaped pool, 28,000 gal, 4 returns, main drain and skimmer, sand filter (new this year - replaced DE filter)
New Cell = SC-60
New Control Unit
Software Version 4.4
Power Level = 1 (Factory setting)
Cell reverse 4 hours (Factory setting)
20 Volts, 5.0 Amps
Purifier on at 75%
Salt 3500 (pool store tested at 3500)

FAC=4.0
TAC=4.0
Actual water temp is at 83 degrees (verified with thermometer and MM temp probe so I adjusted the unit down 3 degrees to match that)
Calcium Hardness = 200
Cyanuric Acid = 60 (recommended range is 60-80 in the manual)
Total Alkalinity = 120
pH = 7.8
Copper = 0
Iron = 0
Phosphates = 0

Should I adjust the Purifier % down manually or increase the power level and see if the unit makes the adjustment? Will increasing the power level cause the cell to wear quicker, I assume having the unit run at anything over 50% will decrease the life of the cell?

I am running the unit 16 hours per day, 6:30 am to 10:30 pm. Is this too much/too little? How do I know other than the FAC and TAC level is good? Should I change the time of day the unit is running, i.e. start it earlier in the day and shut it off earlier in the evening or vice versa?

[pacsman]

Thanks. I will check out the link. I have wondered if using bleach was ok to do or not. Have had some say yes and some say no. Any particular way to dispense it i.e. dilute it first or just pour it in without splashing it on the liner?

I had some shock so I used that every couple of days and got lucky with the weather having some very overcast days which I'm sure helped somewhat.

[Watermom]

It is certainly ok to use bleach. No need to dilute it first. You can either pour it in front of a return jet or directly into the skimmer while the pump is running which is what I do. (By the way, if you ever have a need to shock the pool, turn your SWCG off and just use bleach to do so. Using the SWCG on the superchlorinate setting simply ages your cell faster and limits the life of it.)

I'll let someone else advise you on your specific questions about your unit.

[PoolDoc]

You'd have to check your insurance to see if voltage surge damage is covered; I would doubt it, simple because the nebulous nature of that claim would expose insurance companies to fraud. (I'm not saying you are acting fraudulently; just that surge coverage would make it easy for fraudsters!)

What you should do is install surge protection -- especially now that there is a pool rated model with insurance(!):

Intermatic PS3000 Pool Surge Protector (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I506Z3S/scouscho-20/)

However PoolSean (Auto Pilot service manager) has told me that the Auto Pilot units contain surge protection, which may now need replacing on yours. I'm going to ask him to check on this.

[pacsman]

Thanks for the link I will be checking it out. If the Auto Pilot units contain surge protection mine must not have been working or there was some other issue. At any rate I have already replaced the Dig 220 Control unit. Went with a new unit for $200 more rather than having old unit repaired, still have the old unit though. New unit has a 2 year warranty along with the replacement cell I purchased as well.