Cloudy water is it my filter?

[Skymarc]

Hi all, new to the forum.
I have a 20 x 40 vinyl liner pool, about 30000 gal.
TC 4
FC 4
PH 7.2
TA 74
Cal 72
Copper 0.9
CYA 0

I had lots of leaves and dirt in the spring and had to use a lot of chlorine.

Now that the pool is very clean I'm still dumping 4-5 gal a day of 12% liquid chlorine and by the next night its down to under 2 ppm or 0. I just added a box of Borax to raise PH. Water is cloudy, cant see the bottom of the pool but its clean with no slim in the bottom as I was in it today.

Seems that my sand filter is not doing the job. I have a 25" Ranger filter with a 2 hp pump on 1.5 " piping. Pump is running 24 hrs a day. I changed my sand last year to a finer sand that a pool guy around here recommends.

Not sure it works as when I was cleaning with my kreepy krawly in filter mod it would come back brown from the returns. I bought a Dolphin robot cleaner and it cleaned out the pool really clean.
I don't see any algae but why I'm still using so much chlorine? Wondering if the cloudy water comes from the filter not filtering?

[Watermom]

You are probably using so much chlorine because you have no CYA in the water or are still fighting something organic in the pool. Without CYA, it is nearly impossible to keep chlorine in the pool. You can either add some CYA directly as a separate product or use some dichlor which adds chlorine and CYA at the same time. Most pools do well with a CYA level around 50. (If you buy some separately to add, it might be called stabilizer or conditioner. Ingredients should say cyanuric or isocyanuric acid.)

If brown water is shooting through your returns, you have one of three things going on or a combination of them:
1. Your pump is too powerful and is simply forcing debris through the sand bed back into the pool. (Common problem.)
2. You do not have 'pool sand' in your filter.
3. Your filter is malfunctioning. You can test this by throwing a handful of DE in your skimmer and watch the return. If you see white powder shooting out, you know you have a filter problem.

What kit are you using to test with? Can you give us some current water testing results taken with a drops-based kit? What all have you added to the pool -- meaning ingredients and not product names.

[Skymarc]

These numbers are from the pool store lab test, they are good. I take ph and chlorine test only with a small drop tester. I have a k2006 on order.

I only added liquid chlorine 12% (im on my 2nd 55 gals drum), some Borox to push ph up also some copper sulphate 2 weeks ago.

Not sure on the sand filter, I had the same problem 2 years ago, dealer said the sand was too coarse, he sold me a finer sand and its not better. I stop the pump last night and the pool was clearer this morning I was starting to see the bottom. I could see some dust in the bottom so I put in the Dolphin robot and it made it cloudy with the cleaning. I restarted the pump this morning and its cloudy again.

I will get some stabilizer and will try to find some DE sand to do your test.

My sand filter is a 30" size with sand about 10" -12" down from the top, is this too low? Pump is a 1.5 hp Pentair.

I will probably take the sand filter appart to see if I find anything wrong. What do you think of Zeobrite sand media?

[Watermom]

Is your sand "pool sand." It makes a difference. Try the DE test. (By the way, DE is not sand. You should be able to find it at your pool store.)

Check your manual for how much sand your filter needs. It may be that you are low and need to top it off. The consensus around here seems to be that most people don't think Zeobrite is worth it.

Glad you ordered a K2006. Unfortunately, most pool store testing isn't accurate.

[Skymarc]

Im pretty sure its pool sand as it was sold by a pool shop. I will try to find some DE.
Just got my K2006 test kit. Will test tomorrow.

[Skymarc]

I added some Stabilizer and Borox. I did my first test with my k2006. PH is still low, could the Stabilizer put the PH down?
Water is still cloudy, need to find the problem with the filter.

PH 7.0
FC 7.5
CC 0.5
TA 80
CA 200
CYA 50

[Watermom]

Stabilizer doesn't really affect pH too much. Go ahead and add some more Borax to try and bump it up.

[PoolDoc]

. . . membership updated.

DE filter test info => http://pool9.net/de-test/

[Skymarc]

Just want to update.

I took my sand filter apart, found out that the installer 7 years ago had use a 1.1/4 pipe standout on a 2" filter head. Spyders were ok. No wonder it wouldn't filter. Glued in an adapter and pipe to 2" and reinstall my sand and filter head. Big job on a 30" filter.

Within 4 days the pool as clear up perfectly.

Added 2 box of borax and 1 box of sod bicarb.
Added 3 x 2 kgs of stabilizer and now the pool is clear and uses very little chlorine.

Here are my numbers, from the pool shop test but mine are basically the same.
FC 3
TC 3
PH 7.5
TA 140
CH 220
CYA 70
Borate 30
Copper 0.5

I took a sample of water to my pool shop and they gave me a perfect water balance certificate !
Thanks for the help.

Now I got a few stains on the liner, whats the best product to clean does?

[CarlD]

Fire your pool store.

With a CYA level of 70, your FC needs to be a MINIMUM of 5ppm. If you have an SWCG (saltwater chlorine generator), it needs to be a MINIMUM of 3.5ppm.

So FC of 3 with CYA of 70 is definitely NOT perfect and at risk of algae growth. Other numbers look OK for a vinyl pool.

But...if you find your pH isn't stable, you'll want to lower your TA. If, however, pH is stable, you are fine--don't fix what isn't broken.

[PoolDoc]

Argh. I really, really *wish* we had a simple way to remove stains and metals.

But you've got a sand filter; that will help. Let me explain the concept, and then get to the details.

1. You need to find out out the metals are getting into your water -- and stop it, if possible.
2. You need to make sure that standard chemicals will remove the stains -- test with Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and Iron Out (sodium hydrosulfite)
3. You need to prepare to re-dissolve the stains into the pool water (Vit. C or Iron Out) -- using non-chlorine compatible chemicals.
4. You need to re-chlorinate BUT keep the metals dissolved.
5. You need to gradually remove the dissolved metals from solution, without returning them to the stains
6. You need to act to prevent metals from entering your pool (preferable) or else manage their entry, if you can't prevent it.
7. Because the process often isn't perfect, you may have to repeat the stain removal 1 or 2x, before you can permanently eliminate them.

Whew!

As you can see, this is a complex process. As far as I know, there is no simple one-step fix. The various products on the market for metal control or management are over-hyped and under-described, presumably because explaining to pool owners how complex this process is, hurts sales.

Keep in mind, that doing nothing is an option.

Stains don't hurt anyone, and if no one in your family is getting green hair, deciding you can live with them is a perfectly good option. You *should* figure out (a) if that 0.5 ppm Cu result is real or bogus, and (b) if it's not bogus, how copper is entering your pool. Once you do, you probably want to stop it.

If you decide you DO want to deal with the stains and metal, you need to do all of the following:

1. Enter your pool data in the pool chart:
http://pool9.net/pf-pool-form/

2. Enter test results from your pool into the pool history spread sheet:
http://pool9.net/pf-hist-form/
You can see results here:
http://pool9.net/pf-hist-chart/

3. Enter test results from your pool FILL water into the pool history spread sheet as well.

4. Try to identify HOW metals are entering your pool. (Algaecides, ionizers, fill water)

5. Test your stains with Vit. C and Iron Out to see if applying a few tabs or 1/4 cup granules will lift the stains.



Lemme know what you plan do to!

[PoolDoc]

Just thought of 2 other things:

1. With borates = 30 ppm, you might want to go ahead and add the additional borax and acid to reach the 60 ppm level that is helpful in preventing algae. This is especially worthwhile if you're planning to go on vacation and leave the pool untended. On your pool, 12 boxes of borax (72 oz) and 4 gallons of 21 degree 31% muriatic acid should do it. If you do this, read the muriatic acid page, http://pool9.net/ma/ and add the 4th gallon slowly, testing in between additions. Given your stains, you probably want to add acid first -- directly to the pool -- followed immediately by borax added directly to the skimmers. (Do NOT choke the skimmer pipe -- borax can 'freeze' into a solid lump that will take forever to dissolve!) High pH can drop metals out, as stains.

2. If you want to just remove the stains and see if they stay gone, you can try that. Do the Vitamin C test. If that removes the stain, do all the following:
add polyquat algaecide http://pool9.net/polyquat/
let your chlorine level drop below 1 ppm
dump ascorbic acid on the stains (http://pool9.net/ascorbic/)
add HEDP (to keep the metal in the water)* [/B]
do your borax treatment at this time (optional)
re-chlorinate

The polyquat keeps your pool from turning green as the chlorine drops. The HEDP keeps the metal in the water (temporarily -- it gradually breaks down!) once you re-chlorinate. Doing it in this order will prevent new staining from the pH spike if you add borax.

If you'd like a relatively trouble-free, but not completely effective way to actually remove the metals from your water, you can use the CuLator packs. Contrary to the maker's literature, these are NOT 'worn out' after a month. The remain good until they are all gummed up from pool goo OR heavily colored from absorbing metals. You can put one in each skimmer, and hang them in front of the returns. If you put them in the skimmer, use a skimmer sock to prevent 'pool goo' from ruining them. -- They work but VERY slowly -- Using 6 at once, for 6 months, is better than using 1 at at a time, replacing them every month for 6 months.
http://pool9.net/culator/
http://pool9.net/skim-sock/


* HEDP is not sold directly under that name. "Jacks Magic Pink Stuff" is the highest concentration HEDP we've able to find, that is usually available. Amazon doesn't sell it directly, but usually there are 1 or 2 3rd party sellers on Amazon who do sell it.

[Skymarc]

The stains are only dirt stain from last year as I lost the pool at the end of the season.
Im rubbing a chloring puck on it and brush and it helps to remove it.

As for the copper level, its my fault as I use some copper sulphate earlier this season. I always used some the last 3-4 years to control algua before I read on it that its not very good to use. I have plenty here at the feedmill and its cheap. I have stop using it and the copper level will go down in time when I remove some water this fall to close the pool.

I have zero stains from the copper or metal. No green hair neither.
Water is crystal clear and my CHL level is more like 5 ppm when I test it with my k2006 tester. I think the pool store does not test higher than 3.

Liner as a rough texture now, before it was more slippery??

[PoolDoc]

+ The most common cause I've seen for a rough liner is what I've called "sand algae". Under certain conditions, some forms of algae and slime will either secrete tiny calcium domes that adhere to the pool surfaces. You can see some extreme examples here: http://pool9.net/algae-sand/

+ Do NOT rub a trichlor puck on your liner; they are VERY acidic, and low pH will do serious damage to a liner. If you have stains that respond to high chlorine, dose your pool with bleach at night, and let the stains gradually disappear.

[Skymarc]

No slime but just a rough texture.

[PoolDoc]

Look at the pictures of the white or sand colored bumps -- those are the end point residue left after the algae is gone.

[Skymarc]

My k2006 test this am,
FC 2.5
CC 0
PH 7.2
TA 90
CH 90

I added more chlorine and 1 box of borax.
Water is crystal clear.

[PoolDoc]

Looking good.

But if the roughness on your liner is calcium scale it would be better to keep your pH near 7.0, till the roughness is gone.

[Skymarc]

my latest test last night,

FC 4.5
CC 0.5
PH 7.2-7.3
TA 90
CA 90
CYA 45

the box of Borax didn't do very much as I added water and my fill water PH is 6.8 and FC of 2-3 ppm.
did a chock last night and its looking good this am. Very clear.
On the CYA its hard to not see that dot, how far should I be when looking down at it?

[Watermom]

When testing CYA, hold the vial at waist level and have the sun at your back.

[Skymarc]

Just reopened my pool last week and got it cleaned and clear water within 3 days.
Filter is running good with the fix from last year.

Got it chocked to try to remove some dirt stain.
Water looks pretty good without adding any chemicals beside chlorine.
Is my CYA level of 40 ok Or I should bump it up?


Fc 7
Ph 7,6
TA 90
CH 120
CYA 40

[FormerBromineUser]

Leave the CYA where it is unless you have a SWCG. Congrats on your numbers!