*SIGH* Looks Like I Have da' Mustard

[Tom.B]

"Cowardly, cowardly Custard... Can't cut the mustard!"

Well, it's time to divert my previous thread: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/22752-New-Thread-with-my-results-of-first-test?p=117093#post117093 about water testing and talk about what now seems to be a Mustard Algae issue I think I have. Sadly, I think I have had it for a while, but just fought it with $$$$ throw at Leslie's Pool Supply and Rising Sun Pools here in the Greater Raleigh area.

You can check the link above for my last published test results where my phosphates (PO4?) was around 125, but just in the past few days, they have shot up to between the 250 and 500 ppm range. I have begun pulling the FC up to the SHOCK level and may go higher if needed. Currently the water is beginning to cloud up.

Here are the latest numbers.

FC - 14 (I added another gallon of 8% beach after this test)
CC - .5
PH - 7.4
TA - 80
CH - 350
CYA - 55-60
Phos - 250-500 (closer to the high range)

I have hesitated to put in the bottle of Natural Chemistry PHOS-free until I talked to you all. But I want to fight this thing since I will be spending ALL summer by the pool this year (the past five years we owned a boat and spent all weekends down at the coast) and don't want to let algae ruin it. But hey... whatever it takes.

What say ye'?
(Thanks for everything so far. You guys are awesome!)

Tom-

[PoolDoc]

1. If you have the Phos-Free, go ahead and put it in.

2. Retest phosphates in BOTH the pool AND your fill water. To manage phosphates in a pool, you need to figure out how they are entering.

3. Tell me your pool specs, so I can stick it in your signature -- it's easier to answer with that info in place. (Size, shape, surface, pump make/model, filter type/make/model, other equipment)

4. Run your pump 24/7 if you're not already doing so.

5. Don't buy more PhosFree. Orenda's PR-10000 is cheaper, on a ppm removed basis, though it clouds the pool. Kem-Tek's product is cheaper than Phos-Free, though not as cheap at the Orenda product, but doesn't cloud your pool. You'll have to find the Orenda product via Google, and you'll need to buy a clarifier to use with. I'll post links to Kem-Tek below. However, I'd get the testing done before deciding to buy more.


Kem-Tek 265-6 Pool and Spa Phosphate Remover, 1 Qt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI04/scouscho-20) ($16.50 on May 12, 2014)
(1 quart will remove 2,000 ppm PO4 from 10,000 gallons.)
Natural Chemistry 5221 Phos Free Pool Cleaner, 3-Liter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXKS4/scouscho-20) ($19.80 on May 12, 2014)
(3 liters will remove 1,800 ppm from 10,000 gallons.)


Clarifier (needed if you purchase Orenda PR-10000)

Kem-Tek Pool and Spa Ultra Clarifier (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN//B0030BEI18/scouscho-20)
GLB Clear Blue (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXKWK/scouscho-20)

[Tom.B]

3. Tell me your pool specs, so I can stick it in your signature -- it's easier to answer with that info in place. (Size, shape, surface, pump make/model, filter type/make/model, other equipment)

I have wondered about this. I filled out the form when I joined and thought that maybe it was hidden to everyone but the mods. Since I don't have access to my own profile, I was just guessing. :-)

18x36 Rectangle IG 27,000 gal. Vinyl liner with a Hayward 250 sand filter and 1.5 hp pump

Now that you mention it, we just had 4" of rain. During that, I drained TOO MUCH water out (thinking it would rain another inch... it did not... So I was forced to, once again, fill the pool with what I calculate was around 500 gallons. It's dark now, so I will test me municipal water during the daylight tomorrow, but I'd bet that's it.

I set the pool to run 24/7 and just added the PHOS-free.

Thanks again!
Tom-

[Tom.B]

Oh... How many Kem-Tek's should I get? I suppose I should wait to see the results of the municipal water test. If PO4 is high, I guess I need to have a few bottles in reserve to use when I refill. Otherwise, maybe just one or two if it will REALLY lower it 1000ppm/qt./10,000g. Seems a bit lofty to me.

[PoolDoc]

Yeah, let's see where you are, and what you're putting into your pool, before you start ordering.

Regarding the forms, I don't have anyone to work on them right now, but that will change, hopefully next week.

[Watermom]

Thanks for the subscription! :)

[Tom.B]

Yeah, let's see where you are, and what you're putting into your pool, before you start ordering.

As suspected, municipal water has nearly 500 ppb of PO4. The PHOS-free appears to not have had any affect on the phosphate level over the last 24 hours. Currently, the FC level is 15 and the CYA is up to 60.

Recommendations?

[PoolDoc]

Actually, 500 ppb is not bad; the water here has over 2,000 ppb!

If you'd like, go ahead and pick one of the removers (Orenda PR-10000 or the Kem-Tek product), purchase it, and take the phosphates below 125 ppb. BUT, keep your chlorine up. Low phosphates weaken, but do not kill algae.

-- I assume you aren't using any products that would ADD phosphates, like stain removers, United Chemicals products, etc.? --

How's your pool looking, or more specifically, how is the mustard algae looking?

[Tom.B]

Good assumption... No other products being used. I also just ordered four quarts of the Kem-Tek to give it a whirl to lower my PO4. Looking forward to not spending $50 per bottle on the stuff at the pool store.

The pool looks fabulous currently. The water has cleared up quite a bit and is what I would consider crystal clear. The algae seems to still be there, but is less than before (unscientific). It still appears at the seams of the liner and on the steps, however, we are keeping it brushed every-other day or so. I just wen out and had to backwash the sand filter. The pressure had jumped and there was no visible output from the jets. When I did, the water was very green coming out of the waste hose. Normal?

I have also raised the FC level up to 19ppm as of the test just a few minutes ago. I finally got to Wally World and bought 12 gallons of their 8% Great Googly-Moogly Bleach. Unfortunately, someone beat me to the 20 Mule. Oh well, live to fight another day.

I actually have another question(s): What is the upper limit for chlorine with a vinyl liner? With a CYA of 55-60, I hesitate to run to the +SHOCK+ FC level to 30 as noted in Best Guess, much less 70ppm! Where should I raise it to and how long should I leave it there to kill off the algae?

[PoolDoc]

I just went out and had to backwash the sand filter. The pressure had jumped and there was no visible output from the jets. When I did, the water was very green coming out of the waste hose. Normal?

No, that's an indicator of algae. If you can, put a few tabs in the skimmer, which will raise the chlorine level in the filter, without raising it so much in the pool.



I actually have another question(s): What is the upper limit for chlorine with a vinyl liner? With a CYA of 55-60, I hesitate to run to the +SHOCK+ FC level to 30 as noted in Best Guess, much less 70ppm! Where should I raise it to and how long should I leave it there to kill off the algae?

Unfortunately, that's a question without a good answer. It varies from liner to liner, even within brands. I've been told that dark blue tends to be the color most susceptible to bleach-out, because of the pigments or dyes usually used.

Having a liner you're concerned about is an even better reason to try the phosphates. I probably should let you know I have entirely selfish reasons for wanting you to try phosphate removal: this is a perfect test case, for VALID use of phosphate removers:
=> You clearly have chlorine resistant algae -- the backwash is almost absolute confirmation of that.
=> You have a legit concern about 'mustard shock levels' of chlorine.
=> You're behaving predictably from our point of view and seem to testing reliably . . . so the 'data' we get from you is likely to be meaningful..

But . . . I really do hope it works. It would provide us a very useful additional tool with which to help people.

[Tom.B]

No, that's an indicator of algae. If you can, put a few tabs in the skimmer, which will raise the chlorine level in the filter, without raising it so much in the pool.

A few... Meaning three at once? Isn't that going to shoot my CYA thru the roof? With it currently at 60, I can keep a SHOCK level FC without breaking the bank or killing the liner.


Having a liner you're concerned about is an even better reason to try the phosphates. I probably should let you know I have entirely selfish reasons for wanting you to try phosphate removal: this is a perfect test case, for VALID use of phosphate removers:
=> You clearly have chlorine resistant algae -- the backwash is almost absolute confirmation of that.
=> You have a legit concern about 'mustard shock levels' of chlorine.
=> You're behaving predictably from our point of view and seem to testing reliably . . . so the 'data' we get from you is likely to be meaningful..

But . . . I really do hope it works. It would provide us a very useful additional tool with which to help people.

Why does this make me feel dirty? :-D

It the backwash REALLY a clear indicator? Wouldn't the regular brushing cause the algae to get caught in the filter and clog it up? Moreover, at the apparent "concentration" of it as it left the waste hose just have it be green anyway?

Chlorine level has only been high for two days. Define "chlorine resistant". Are we saying that removal is impossible with SHOCK levels of chlorine, and that because it's a liner pool, +SHOCK+ level are unrealistic and/or unobtainable?

I will have my phosphate remover in a few days, what is the plan? To get them to zero? Problematic only because of the municipal supply I have. In fact, evaporation this week already has me needing to add more in the next few days. **EDIT** Amazon just emailed and the expected date I will get the PO4 remover is TOMORROW! YAY!

I hope we can figure this out. How's your track record? ;-)

[PoolDoc]

1. Several tabs will only add 5 - 10 ppm CYA. Overall that effect is small compared to the algae issue.

2. There are other possible causes of 'mustard' looking surfaces, but combined with green backwash, it's a pretty positive indication of actual algae. It ALSO can indicate an incipient algae bloom.

3. The problem with low PO4 is that it has to be maintained. Unless you have a bad leak, it shouldn't be that hard with only 500 ppb in the fill water. But it's an ongoing issue, which is the reason pool stores have loved it. Now that more generic forms of PO4 remover are available, and profit margins are declining, their enthusiasm will wane.

4. The issue of really high chlorine levels with liners is unresolved. Many people have no problem. The high levels of CYA associated with high levels of chlorine reduced the bleaching effect. We *suspect* that it will only rarely be a problem, but we don't know that, and testing it is troublesome.

5. Dunno if you were serious or not about "feeling dirty". Personally, I've always liked solving problems, especially when the solution could help other people.

6. My track record is not bad: pretty much every idea* that's part of the overall "BBB method" was my idea. Chem_Geek as validated those ideas analytically in a way I couldn't, and has refined the details. And a bazillion pool owners here and at TFP have tested and proven them empirically. But the ideas were mine.

But . . . I tend to solve problems iteratively: try something, look at the results, make changes, and try again. It took me 9-10 complete iterations to finally come up with a commercial chemical feed system that could be maintained with periodic care on reasonable intervals, rather than unscheduled emergency 'intervention'. (I *still* need to market that!)

Of course, if you're present during the iterations . . . it can get a bit frustrating. I try to remind myself, when speaking to owners and managers, not to respond to failures that expose a weakness with, "Wow that's great! I know how to fix that!". Their enthusiasm for those 'successful failures' tends to be a hair less than mine. ;)


* I should add, I didn't come up with this stuff from nothing. A lot of it was field experience, but I talked to a LOT of people from whom I learned a LOT:. senior engineer Bud Frederick at PacFab (now, Pentair); Dave Knoop and others at HTH/Arch; an owner/chemist at a local regional chemical company (Farm and Industrial) supplying the carpet businesses in Dalton, GA; Jock Hamilton, at United Chemical, who finally refused to talk to me, because he kept 'leaking' bits he didn't mean to say; a number of near-retirement chemists and engineers at various large chemical companies, including Monsanto, fabric designers at Speedo, hair treatment chemists at Clairol, and more.

Of course, I had to sort through some mis-direction from from some very astute and smart people at BioLab and Great Lakes Bio.

So a lot of what I did was something I seem to have a gift for: not necessarily discovering anything that's actually new, but gathering and putting together bits of info from here, there and yon, into a newly functional whole. For a long time, I couldn't understand why no one else had seen these things: after all, the data was there. But apparently I combined several characteristics into a statistically novel result: that 'gift'; plus being endlessly curious about almost everything, and finally being enough of a 'jerk' that I was unbothered by publishing stuff that made many people, including some very nice people, look utterly stupid. It's not a socially attractive mix: I'm very, very blessed that my wife and sons still like me.

[Tom.B]

Nice bio! Glad you have a positive attitude towards all this. I guess with the onset of the internet, a pool related forum was just a natural progression. Thanks for all this... just in case I forget to tell you later)

Okay, so... I added another 500-ish gallons of municipal water this morning, dropped two more 3" trichlor tabs in the skimmer that bring the total to 2 1/2 of them in there now, and just for kicks, added a 1# bag of cal-hypo (Powder Plus) because of it's high chlorine content (and just because I still have some lying around). I haven't used it in a couple of weeks, so I thought it would be fine. I'd like to get rid of the last few bags I have, so I will spread out the usage to the times I add water to the pool as not to boost the CA levels (SEE!!! I HAVE learned some stuff here!).

And yes... I WAS joking about the feeling dirty part. I feel I am now just another lab rat of yours... and I am TOTALLY fine with that! But that was the joke behind the "I feel dirty" comment. You'll get used to my sarcastic humor sooner-or-later... I hope. :-D

Any tips or tricks to using the Kem-Tek Phosphate remover?

[PoolDoc]

Any tips or tricks to using the Kem-Tek Phosphate remover?

Not that I can tell.

[Tom.B]

Done. Test results will come tomorrow morning.

[PoolDoc]

At least 24 hours -- and after vacuuming and backwashing. The material comes out, mostly on the filter.

[Tom.B]

At least 24 hours -- and after vacuuming and backwashing. The material comes out, mostly on the filter.

I'm not sure I completely understand this sentence. Can you clarify?

**EDIT**
Okay, so... PO4, in 12 hours after Kem-Tek, has doubled to 1000-ish. YIKES! (will retest)

FC-21.5
CC-.5
pH-7.4
TA-80
CH-340
CYA-60-70
PO4->1000

Pool still crystal clear with no overnight algae growth.

[PoolDoc]

The PO4 removers work by precipitating lanthanum phosphate particles. But the phosphate is not actually REMOVED from your pool, till those particles are filtered out, and backwashed (or washed, with cartridge filters) away.

I don't know enough about the phosphate test, to know whether it would register phosphate still present in the pool as unfiltered lanthanum phosphate particles.

I would treat PO4 removal as a week-long process: add the PO4 remover, filter and clean normally, and then -- after a week -- check your PO4 level. You might also want to retest the fill water when you do - PO4 levels in drinking water can vary, depending on what's happening at the treatment plant!

[Tom.B]

Will these particulates settle to the bottom of the pool or remain transient and just get caught in the filter?

[PoolDoc]

Honestly, I don't know. I *think* it mostly filters.

What puzzled me about using the Kem-Tek product was that I never saw any cloudiness, or particles -- but the PO4 level did come down. However, I was separating dosing and testing by a week or more.

[Tom.B]

I used 32oz. yesterday. I will wait and possibly do it again mid-week.

[Tom.B]

FYI--- Water is AMAZINGLY clear! I brushed the pool today and there were zero signs of algae. So far... so good.

[PoolDoc]

Sounds good!

[Tom.B]

Any ideas on how long I should keep the FC level this high?

[PoolDoc]

Normally, I suggest keeping it elevated a day or 2 AFTER all traces of algae are gone.

[Tom.B]

Normally, I suggest keeping it elevated a day or 2 AFTER all traces of algae are gone.

Hmmm... Very non-specific ;-) How do I know when ALL TRACES of algae are gone? I have to say that it has felt gone before and it came back again... and again... and again... and... well, you get the picture. It appears that most, if not all of it SEEMS to be gone. So maybe I will keep high until next weekend, then slowly let it drop to it's Best Guess level.

In other words: Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. :-D

[PoolDoc]

With the possibility of liner bleaching, I wouldn't necessarily wait a week to let levels drop. Usually, liner bleaching is not a problem. But unfortunately on some liners, levels of chlorine effective against mustard overlap the levels that can cause bleaching.

This is not a process that someone like Consumer Reports has carefully studied and optimized, with exact data collection and meaningful statistical analysis of that data.

Pool chemical companies have NO interest in spending serious research $$$'s to find out how to optimize algae removal with cheap, unprofitable chlorine.

So you have to fly by the seat of your pants, to some degree.

[BigDave]

Hmmm... Very non-specific ;-)Nope, not specific. Specific leads to chasing numbers which leads to over-adjusting which leads to running to the pool store for someone to "Tell me what to do!". That's not best for you. take it easy. Move a little at a time. Set targets and sneak up on them.

[Tom.B]

Well... As y'all predicted, I am now beginning to see signs of bleaching of my liner. Sooo... I supposed it's time to let it come down. I hope I am not too late. We got a 15-year liner about 4 years ago, but I would bet the warranty won't cover this. Oh well. On the brightside, it looks like the algae is gone. "So I got THAT going for me... Which is nice."

[PoolDoc]

Warranties don't cover bleaching.

But bleaching is pretty literally just 'skin-deep', and doesn't affect the functional longevity of the liner. (Personally I'd prefer a white liner: blue makes pools in Georgia hot, and white pool walls make the water look more 'blue' when the water is in really good condition.)

[Tom.B]

Well, after five days, the Kem-Tek did virtually nothing to lower my phosphates. It's still at, or near 1000 :-( I have just added another dose (1 quart) and we will see what happens. I wonder if the high FC reduces its effect. Nothing on the label addresses it.

[PoolDoc]

How are you testing? With the Aqua-Chek, or the Taylor? ( I scanned back very quickly, but didn't see)

The reason I'm asking is that I found the Aqua Check and the Taylor matched fairly well below 1 ppm, but not above. At 1 ppm or higher, the AquaCheck made no distinctions -- with samples with 1 ppm and 3 ppm PO4 appearing identical to me.

If you're using the Aqua Check, you need to dilute your test samples to results of 0.5 PO4 or less, and then multiple back. (Mix 1/4 cup fill water with 3/4 cup distilled water, test, then multiple x4).

[Tom.B]

Taylor K-1106

[PoolDoc]

I don't know what to say.

Go ahead and retest -- as carefully as you can -- your pool water, now.

Then test again after 5 or 6 days. Be sure to run your filter most of the time.

. . . just had another thought. Do the DE test on your filter: http://pool9.net/de-test/ If the filter doesn't trap the phosphates, they won't be removed.

[Tom.B]

GOOD NEWS!!

FC-9
CC-.5
pH-7.4
TA-90
CH-310
CYA-70
PO4----- WAIT FOR IT--- 125 :-D

Looks like the second dose (or a combination of the TWO doses) finally lowered my phosphate level. I may continue to add small doses, but that might be a bit pie-in-the-sky. Maybe instead, I should hang on to the other two bottles to counteract evaporation as I add my, apparently, high-phosphate municipal water. Because I certainly don't want it to rain enough to keep it full :-D

Now I just need to monitor things, keep "Best Guessing" the chlorine level and see where things go. Thanks 1x10^6. At this point in previous years, I would have already spend many, many, many hundreds of dollars and gotten nowhere. Sure, the test kit, and the stuff from Wally World has been a couple hundred (plus) for sure, but I also have a pool education like I have never had before.

I'll keep you posted how it goes. Thanks again!

[PoolDoc]

You'll definitely want to use small doses of the PO4 remover each time you add water. It doesn't take much phosphate in the water to be 'enough' for the algae to live on. I suspect that the Kem-Tek product may be rather slower acting, which would explain why it doesn't cloud the water so badly.

Your pool is about 400 gallons per inch; a reasonable PO4 remover dose would be 2 tablespoons each time you add an inch of water.

Your calcium is fairly high; use borax rather if you need to raise the pH, to avoid adding carbonates.

And . . . tell me what the water looks like? And whether all traces of algae are gone.

One other thing -- lots of people end up asking about vacations 3 - 4 days before they go. Don't do that -- plan now. I'd recommend having 4 quarts of polyquat on hand. If you add a quart when you leave, and have a neighbor pour a quart in 1/2 way through AND you keep your phosphates low, you should have an excellent chance of returning to a clear pool.

[Tom.B]

Water looks fine with no signs of algae... now.

I know my CA is high, but my pH seems to stay pretty stable. I just used baking soda to raise my TA from 70 to 90 a few days ago. (thread in alk forum). I had to add another 500-600 gallons of municipal water today, so I will put some more Kem-Tek in now.

What is polyquat?

[Watermom]

60% Polyquat is the only algaecide we recommend. Most pools don't need it although sometimes we suggest using it for various reasons, one being if you are going to be gone for awhile and unable to attend the pool. It can't prevent algae, but it can help to make it less likely that if your chlorine dips a little low that algae will start. Some people add some upon closing the pool in the fall. I never use it but others do.

add link: http://pool9.net/polyquat/
.