Looking for direction

[mrscabrera]

Currently getting my water tested at the pool store. I will soon be purchasing a good test kit and start doing things myself instead of burning up my checking account at the pool store. I'm tired of adding chemicals, and then adding more chemicals to correct the additional problems caused by what else..but chemicals. Ugh.

Pool has been super cloudy but is getting better slowly.

Current readings from today:

FC: 0
TC: 0
CC: 0
(ODD because I just installed a new chlorinator and though have had issues, it is now eroding tablets. Over the past week, I have added 12 pounds of granular chlorine, on top of multiple additions of Breakout 35, all to no avail) They want me to add an additional 8 cups of breakout 35 tonight.

pH 6.3 (also odd because up until today it has been in normal range)
Hardness 191
Alk 90.5 ( I just added 6lb alkalinity up and will retest tomorrow morning)
CYA 95
TDS 1751

I have already drained 25% and replaced.

My pool is ~12,000 gallons, gunite with auto cover. Pentair superflo single speed pump, hayward cartridge filter, rainbow 320 inline chlorinator in top feed configuration. I just switched it to top feed because it wasn't holding water or dissolving my tablets in bottom feed configuration. Even now, there is minimal water that stays in the chamber.

I do have a heater, but it is currently not turned on. Saving money since no one is swimming anyhow.

Can anyone give me some pointers on how to fix this without spending an additional $500 on chemicals that seem to cause more harm than good?

[CarlD]

Whoa, Mrs Cabrera!

I hate to tell you but you've been sold a bill of goods!
First: You MUST get your pH up! I would start by adding 2 boxes of Borax, yes, 20 Mule Team Borax from the supermarket. Add one, wait 2 hours and check pH, Then, if it's not at least 7.2, add the other. If after another 2 hours it's STILL in the 6's, add a third box. You MUST get your pH up over 7.0!
Second: Stop using tablets in the chlorinator immediately and remove what's in there--where rubber gloves. They've raised your CYA to VERY high levels making it tougher but not impossible to chlorinate your pool.
Third: Don't add Alkalinity Up for 2 reasons: a) Your pH is SO low it's understating your TA, aka Alk level when 90 is FINE and it will go up when your pH does b) Alkalinity Up! is nothing but baking soda and you can buy 12-13 pound bags of that at Costco for about 1/4 the cost
Fourth: Ignore TDS--Total Dissolved Solids. They mean NOTHING and are a pool store scare tactic. Salt is a "DS" and salt water generator pools (Like mine) run normally at 3000.
Fifth: Get 8.25% ultra bleach, regular unscented. You'll need to add 3 gallons (a bit more is fine) to start. Each gallon of 8.25% should add about 6 2/3 ppm of FC and you want to get it to AT LEAST 20ppm. You'll want to keep it there until it can mostly hold over night.
6th: You'll need a simple OTO test kit, or, better yet, WalMart's HTH 6-way drop test kit--it measures OTO up to 5ppm, rather than 3ppm like most.
Here is one way to use the OTO kit to test higher chlorine levels:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html
I believe, if you don't use the dilution method, that when the OTO is deep orange, near red, chlorine levels are in the high 20's to low 30's
7th: You WILL need to get a better test kit--the Taylor K-2006 or K-2006c to properly test the higher levels of chlorine.

With a CYA level of 95, you will need to maintain a regular chlorine level of 5 to 10--closer to 10 (CYA over 100 you need FC to be between 8 and 15 to remain sanitary).

[mrscabrera]

Thanks for your advice! I have to work tonight so I will start on this stuff first thing in the morning when I get home. I think it's easy for pool stores to sell people on this stuff when they are new pool owners and don't know any better. I'll be getting my supplies from Sams Club from now on I think. I just can't afford to keep dumping money in the pool when it's doing no good to do it their way. I love this forum and am so glad I found it!

[PoolDoc]

Carl's definitely got you going in the right direction!

Let me add a couple of further notes:

1. Take back ALL the chemicals you can. Breakout 35 is overpriced underpowered granular chlorine sold because dealers make more selling it as a 'quick-dissolve' chlorine, than they do selling bleach as 'instant-dissolve' chlorine!

2. You mentioned 12# of "granular". What KIND of "granular"? As Carl noted, your CYA is already too high, and if it's "granular dichlor", it's making an existing problem worse.

3. Use an OTO kit ASAP. If your dealer is using DPD (pink / red) color match testing, your ACTUAL chlorine may be very high.

4. Post your exact filter make / model. A dealer that would sell you lithium (Breakout 35) would sell you crummy Pleatco cartridges. You may have to replace it, and use it only as a back-up.

5. I'm going to contradict Carl on this one: don't remove the tablets. The amount of tablets in the feeder aren't going to make a big difference. There's hardly anything safe you can do with wet trichlor, and there's no way to dispose of them short of giving them to a friend with a pool. Do NOT put them in the trash; you can start fires that way! If you DO remove them, do so on a sunny day, and carefully dry them on your pool deck, before storing them. Put down a piece of Saran to keep them from damaging your deck (they are quite acidic).

But, as Carl implied, DO return any tablets you can. Unless you drain your pool or have a major leak, you're not going to need more till next season . . . and they don't store well.

By the way, when we say take everything back, we mean ALL chemicals you bought from that source, that they will take back. It's a pain for us AND you to parse through a half-dozen chemical labels trying to figure out what won't mess things up further. We ALREADY know your dealer will sell you stuff you don't need . . . and won't want, once you know more!

[CarlD]

As Ben said, with 5, it's not enough to make a difference. I always have a number of the small empty buckets that tablets and di-chlor powder and other chems come in, so if something like tabs are wet, I drop them in there so they can dry out....That may not be as safe as I thought....

[mrscabrera]

Super quick reply because I'm clocking in at work right now. Thanks for the tips. I did turn the dial on chlorinator to off but did not remove the tablets. There was only one partial tab left in there so I left it. I am going to sams club in the am to buy a truckload of bleach, baking soda, and borax. I have high hopes this is going to work much better than my current process of chasing my tail. I'll post my readings tomorrow and see if I'm moving in the right direction. Thanks guys!

[mrscabrera]

Ok...new results for this morning. Yesterday before I posted here, I added 6lbs of Alkalinity up, and while I was at work last night, my son added the 8 cups of Breakout 35 the pool store had recommended. I wasn't going to do that...was going to do bleach this morning instead. But it's been done. The pool looks much better this morning and I am able to see the main drains, though we still have cloudiness and the pool is now blue. Today's readings:

FC: 0.54
TC: 1.41
CC: 0.87
pH 7.2 (YAY!)
Hardness: 580
Alk: 175.2
CYA: 126 (This printout says the recommended range for their test kit is 30-150...seems awful high)
Copper: 0.4
Iron: 0.2
Phosphate: 2500
TDS: 1723

What was recommended based on these results if to add 8 cups of non-chlorine shock now, and then tonight, an additional 6 cups of Breakout 35.

What can I do OTHER than adding more pool store chemicals?

I found a decent deal on bleach at Sams Club and was gonna go stock up today.

I took a pic of the label from the new cartridge, but it won't let me upload images for some reason.
It is a 190 sq ft Hayward CX-1900RE. Says "compares to C-8420)

OH....also. The test kit I currently have is Pentair Pool and Spa test kit (78 hour tests for chlorine, ph, acid demand, alkalinity). Tests up to 3ppm.

Is this kit sufficient for what I need immediately or do I need to go get something else?

(Note by moderator: 3 posts waiting in the queue were combined into this one.)

[Watermom]

I'm going to answer your last question first. Yes, you must get a better kit especially since you have such high CYA. Take a look at the Best Guess Chlorine Chart in my signature below. You'll see that pools with high CYA have to run higher than normal chlorine levels and your kit isn't going to be able to measure high enough. Order the Taylor K2006 or 2006C (better buy) from the test kit link below. Otherwise, you won't have the capacity to measure your chlorine to the levels you are going to need.

Stay out of the pool store. They are selling you a bunch of expensive stuff you don't need. Tell your son not to add any more stuff.

Your calcium hardness and TA are REALLY high. If you don't watch it, you are going to end up with a pool that looks like milk. No more cal-hypo, calcium or baking soda!

Since you have had a chlorine level below the minimum needed based on your CYA level (per Best Guess chart), I'd suggest shocking the pool up to 25ppm in case you are on the edge of an algae bloom. In your pool, each gallon of 8.25% bleach will add just about 7ppm of chlorine. Add enough to get to 25ppm.

Order the kit ASAP. You're gonna need it.

[Watermom]

I've asked Ben to jump back in on this thread since you have so many issues on your hands. High CYA and TA. Super high CH. Etc.

[PoolDoc]

1. Stop adding ANYTHING but bleach.

2. Stop going to that pool store; neither their testing nor their recommendations are trustworthy. Remember, THEIR ADVICE put you in this situation. And without going into the technicalities, I can tell simply by looking at the numbers that their testing is bogus. Remember, pools stores make money when they sell chemicals, NOT when they solve problems. If they actually solved your problem, they'd sell less chemicals!

3. Go to Walmart or equivalent and get more STORE brand 8% bleach. Clorox from Sams is OK, since they only sell plain bleach (I think), but Walmart sells 'flavored' Clorox, which you do NOT want!

4. While at Walmart get a cheap OTO/phenol red drops test kit. Use it when you get home, and report results.

5. Order a K2006 kit ASAP -- try to get one from Amazon, if they have them. If not pick Amato Ind as a 3rd party seller. The 2 oz size is a better deal (K2006C). http://pool9.net/testkits

6. Really. Do NOT put any chemicals in, except bleach. Keep adding doses till you get a dark yellow OTO result.

7. Do NOT get a "compares to" cartridge: the way they 'compare' not a good way! Get a Unicel, Filbur or Hayward OEM, when you replace, and make SURE the cartridge itself is labeled Unicel, Filbur or Hayward! I don't know if you need a new cartridge, but here are Amazon links:

Cartridges for a Hayward CX1900RE
Unicel C-8420 Replacement Filter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005DQV7UI/scouscho-20/)
Filbur FC-1211 Antimicrobial Replacement Filter Cartridge (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007NFBACM/scouscho-20/)

[mrscabrera]

Ok. I'm back from Sams/Walmart. I didn't put in any chemicals today....just did a good vac. I bought 6 gallons of 8.25% bleach, and an OTO test kit. Ph is reading 7.2 and chlorine is barely registering. Looks like about 0.5
I'm going to put the bleach in now. How long should I wait to retest?

And does water temp matter? It's still a bit chilly.

[PoolDoc]

Add bleach in 2 gallon increments; allow 2 hours of pump operation before retesting.

Water temp doesn't matter . . . unless you're planning to swim today! ;)

[mrscabrera]

Super. Thanks! I will report back this evening with new results.

PS..as an aside, I asked at the pool store specifically "Won't doing this raise my CYA even higher?" I was told the trichlor will not raise it. Bull Hockey. Aaaannnd DONE. I was already done before, but that just was the icing on top.

[PoolDoc]

I asked at the pool store specifically "Won't doing this raise my CYA even higher?" I was told the trichlor will not raise it.

!

Just wow.

[mrscabrera]

Retested....I'm having difficulty distinguishing between the varying degrees of yellow. My eyes are crossed from staring at it so hard. Ha!

I wish I could put a picture of the test on here.

I -think- it calculates to a chlorine level of 15. But I had to dilute the sample 4:1 just to get a read. Looks like it matches most closely with 3. So I multiple that by 5, right?

[PoolDoc]

Don't worry about it too much; DARK yellow with a bit of orange should be high enough to keep you till you get the K2006 and can actually measure levels.

[mrscabrera]

Ok. I'll do my best to maintain where it is until the kit arrives.

Thank God for Amazon Prime.

[PoolDoc]

Thank God for Amazon Prime.

We got Prime when we were still home-schooling, and were ordering books constantly, and have had it ever since. Plus, it's been a lifesaver for me, since I often forgot to get gifts when I should'uv ;)

[mrscabrera]

Okie doke. I finally got the test kit the other day. I had surgery 2 weeks ago, so I'm a bit lagging in getting this kit out and messing with it all.

The pool looks fantastic....crystal clear using only bleach. I do have some combined and my CYA, TA, and Ca+ are high. Bleh.
I'm afraid a partial drain is in my very near future.

FC is only 1.5
CC 0.75
pH 7.4
TA 280
Ca+ 685
cya 160

I anticipated Ca and CYA being high, so I used 50/50 dilution for the cya measurement and used the instructions for more concentrated sample to test hardness.

So.....where do I go first? Do I drain and handle the cya/hardness issue, and then retest and balance? I'm assuming the new fill water will alter my TA/pH, etc.
I really do need to test my tap water I think before I use it to fill....new house, etc. Maybe the water is super hard even with the softner and I'd only be adding to the problem.

[PoolDoc]

Do NOT drain a crystal clear pool!

If it's not broken, don't fix it!

You can do a 50:50 dilution with tap water for the CYA test, but not for any other test. For pH, TA, CH . . . you must dilute with DISTILLED water, which Walmart sells in gallon jugs for about a dollar.

Diluting for the pH test with distilled does NOT change the pH -- so there's no multiplier. It's just a way to get fairly accurate pH result when the chlorine is above 10 -15 ppm.

ABSOLUTELY, test your fill water BEFORE you even consider draining and refilling.

Once you have those results, you can think about options.

[mrscabrera]

Thanks! I was dreading having to do another drain. That gets expensive!

[PoolDoc]

It still might be necessary, but you don't know that, yet. And you surely don't have to right now.

The goal of pool treatment is not numbers, but a clear, sanitary pool that's pleasant to swim in -- and you have that, at least for the moment.