having trouble with a cloudy pool

[adambeazley]

Hello,

Ive been struggling opening up my pool this summer. I neglected the pool over the winter and it got dark green, almost black. I just started running the pump full time over the past few weeks, dropping gallon after gallon of bleach in it and finally the water is looking good, but cloudy. I changed the sand in my Pentair Triton II TR-140 (last weekend) and rebuilt the Whisperflow pump (changed gaskets and bearings) and those two are running great now with no more leaks. I have tried "Robarb Down and Out" and a clarifier from wallyworld. Just cant seem to get the cloudiness out.

I have a 50,000 gallon L shaped pool and I made the mistake of using those darn strips to test while I was shocking it, and then when I started doing some real chemical tests, my numbers were way off. The PH was really low a few days ago, so I dropped 12 Lbs of baking soda in and it was still low tonight, so I added a box of Borax. Still putting in 2-3 gallons of chlorine per day, but 0ppm by the time I get home from work in the afternoon (chlorine deficient?).

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated. Ill test it again in the morning and get you guys a current reading:


PS: my test kit doesn't test for Cyanuric Acid, will the cheap test strips suffice for this?

[Watermom]

You need a good kit. Test strips will not do the job. Order a Taylor K2006 or 2006C from the test kit link in my signature. In the meantime, keep at it with the bleach. Use Borax to raise pH, not baking soda. Run your pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear the pool and clean the filter as needed. Don't add any other things to the pool right now. Chlorine kills algae but you have to give the filter time to clean it. One thing you might try is adding a little DE to your sand filter to help it filter better. You can read more about it in the Pool Equipment and Operations section of the forum. There is a stickied thread in there near the top that explains it. Until your registration is complete, you will have to log out first to be able to see the rest of the forum.

Welcome to the Pool Forum!

[PoolDoc]

1. Make sure you used actual labeled "pool filter sand".

2. Order a K2006 kit -- you WILL need one => http://pool9.net/test

3. Use a leaf net and/or vacuum to remove ALL physical debris, like leaves, sticks and so forth.

4. Decide whether you want to drain and refill. This is NOT an option if you have a liner pool, or if your pool is in a low, flat, wet or damp area. But, you're probably going to have to spend $200+ or so on chlorine to clear a 50,000 gal swamp. It might be both cheaper and easier to drain and refill IF that's an option.

5. Let us know whether you have access to a Sams Club. If you do, check to see if they carry the Pool Brand pool chemicals. If they do, that's your source for chlorine. Another option might be to see if you have access to a 100# drum of commercial calcium hypochlorite.

6. Do not add any more pool goop -- flocs, clarifiers, copper algaecides, soapy algaecides, etc. Flocs, clarifiers AND filters do NOT work on live algae! Pool store algaecides can make things worse.

7. Do not try to add a little chlorine -- doing so wastes time and money. Wait till you are ready to go, and kill ALL the algae quickly.

[adambeazley]

Current levels: 7.5 ph and total Alkalinity ~100ppm. Chlorine ... well thats the problem, it stays at 2ppm overnight and then by noon its all gone. I just dumped 8 gallons of bleach in it and plan on keeping the chlorine levels really high all day tomorrow... the dollar store is running out....

Watermom: why is borax better than A&H Baking Soda?

PoolDoc:
#1: I did use pool sand...925 lbs of it... fun day!
#2: I have 2 Bioguard 1200V Multi Test Kits, can I just get something to test Cyn, or shoudl I just buy the k-2006? can I use the reagents from the biogard kit with the taylor kits?
#3: the pool is clean and free of debris. I have a creepy crawly vacuuming it. Should I keep using that while shocking, or remove it for better circulation?
#4: not wanting to refill, I already used up my one freebe from the utility company when I re-fiberglassed and gelcoated the stairs.
#5: No Sams, but Ill see if I can get the other stuff... Is that just a fancy name for Chlorine?
#6: not a problem, that stuff is expensive anyway.
#7: What is a little vs a lot in a 50k gallon pool? Im trying to keep it registering with ~6 gallons per day. The sun burns it off so quickly. 2ppm per 4 hour sun burn off.

[PoolDoc]

#2 - I trust BioGuard no further . . . no, I don't trust them at ALL. But, I don't know that kit. Probably, the pH, TA, and CH measurements are OK. But, only the K2006 (or a MUCH more expensive LaMotte) kit has the FAS-DPD test that accurately measures chlorine above 5.0 ppm. And, the Taylor CYA test is more accurate than most wet CYA tests (and ALL test-strips). If you're not on a tight budget, please go ahead and get the K2006. Among other things, it makes it easier for us to help you, since we can have some confidence in the testing. That said, if you do get it, I'd love to have you run side-by-sides with the BioGuard kit.

#3 Where does the KK attach? (But, if the pool is clean, go ahead and take it out)

#5 There are 4 types of chlorine widely available to consumers: trichlor (tabs, etc.), dichlor (granular), bleach (aka liquid chlorine), and cal hypo (granular, also occasionally tabs). The first two add stabilizer roughly as fast as they do chlorine; the second two have no stabilizer, but cal hypo adds calcium rapidly.

#7 In a 50k gal pool, 1 gallon of 8% bleach adds about 1.7 ppm of chlorine. The jugs mostly sold now are a little less than a gallon, so figure 1.5 ppm per jug.

Do an overnight test: 4 gallons in the late evening; test 1 hour later, than again first thing in the morning. If little chlorine is lost overnight, then your chlorine loss problem = no/low stabilizer. Of course, this test is much more useful if you have the K2006.

In any case, it's best to dose in the PM, then in the AM. That way you can be sure the chlorine has 8+ hours to work, without being affected by sunlight.

[adambeazley]

I went ahead and purchased the k2006, and I will be happy to run a side by side test for ya, its the least I could do for all of this help.

The KK attaches under the basket in either one of my two Aqua Genie skimmers. I also have two sets of jets on either side of my stair (4 total).

The chlorine I'm using (concentrated bleach) has 8.25% available chlorine and is just a hair under a gallon (.97 gallons). Should I be using the 1.7 ppm number due to the 8.25%?

I "believe" I have good levels of stabilizer (somewhere between 30-50), but then again that's the varying readings I've been getting with those darn strips... Ill await the arrival of the k2006 and get a accurate reading.

Thanks for the help.

[Watermom]

The jugs I buy (Walmart generic 8.25%) are 121 oz so roughly 0.95 gallons. In a 50K pool, each of these jugs will add 1.6ppm of chlorine.

If you find that you have only 30ppm of CYA, you'll want to bump it up. I'd go up to at least 50. It's awfully hard to keep chlorine in a pool on hot sunny days with a CYA of only 30. One of the gals who used to help moderate on this forum also lives in Louisiana. She deliberately kept her CYA around 80 I think (if I am remembering correctly) because otherwise she had trouble maintaining adequate chlorine levels. A plus of a higher CYA is that you don't have to dose as often with bleach.

Regarding your question about why Borax instead of baking soda --------- Borax will raise pH without affecting Alk much.

Good decision to buy the kit. You won't regret it!

[adambeazley]

ok, so I got my taylor testing kit in and just went out and ran a few tests...

Something apparently got into the strainer and died, so my PH was below 7.0 or right at it. Just dumped 4lbs of borax into the water.

Now the thing that is confusing me is the CYN Acid test... I filled up the little bottle to the 7ml mark, added the R-0013 and mixed for 30 seconds, but the water never turned cloudy. I squirted the mixture into the small tube with the black dot, but the dot never "disappeared" when viewing t through the water from the top... Does this mean that my CYN levels are way too low?

Im heading on vacation today, the pool is starting to turn green again... what shoudl I do before leaving to help clear this up? dump a bunch of powder shock to get the CYN levels up?

[PoolDoc]

1. Your CYA test result = 15 ppm CYA *or* less (probably, zero).

2. It's too late to try to adjust chems.

3. If you're leaving today, see if you can get http://pool9.net/polyquat/ some polyquat algaecide locally. If you can, add 4x the normal algae dose, and put your filter on BYPASS or recirculate. (The filter tends to remove it).

4. Alternatively, add 1 gallon of PLAIN 8% bleach per 10,000 gallons of water AND put 1 or 2 'floaters' filled with chlorine tabs into the pool.

Good luck!

[Watermom]

But, make sure the trichlor tabs do NOT have copper in them.

[adambeazley]

ok I am back from vacation. While I was gone my mom was feeding my dogs and she dumped 1 powder super shock every day while i was gone (gave those instructions to he before seeing the responses above). It also apparently rained and flooded around here, so my pool got totally topped off and is still at the overflow drain hole, so the CYN I was hoping to get from those CYN shocks did not even register on the tests I just took tonight.
PH: 7.6
TA: 90 ppm
Calcium Hardness 110 ppm
FC: 0
CYN: 0

Just dumped 6 gallons of bleach to shock it because its green again (darn frogs). also put a couple of trichlor pucks in the strainers. About to head to the store to get some CYN and some more bleach, now that I have the time to truly shock treat it!!!

any tips at this point?

[PoolDoc]

I should have been promoting these videos more; watch them, especially the CYA (not: CYN) test, and see if you did it correctly. If you did, you have no stabilizer.
http://pool9.net/tk-guide/
http://pool9.net/tk-interfere/

Also, post your pool dimensions. You entered your address, so I looked at your pool. Scaling off Google Maps photos is not very accurate, but your pool does not appear to be a 50k pool . . . so I can't figure doses for you. It looks like a 20x40 short L, but those are typically 30,000 gallons (20 x 40, 3.5 water depth in shallow, 8.5 water depth in deep)

However, if you've got algae, 6 gallons of 8% bleach is not enough for a 50k pool and barely enough for a 30k pool.

[adambeazley]

oh Gosh, I even drew the swimming pool in 3D when I first moved in, to get the cu. ft. and you are right its 30,000 gallons, I'm not sure why I was saying 50K... I guess I just remembered wrong one day and just started repeating it.

[adambeazley]

ok just an update... a few days ago I put in about 8lbs of stabilizer and finally today my CYA is at a 52-53 (I'm in South Louisiana).
CYA: 52
PH: 7.2 <--why did this drop? Add Borax or baking soda? TA is low... does that mean baking soda woudl be better
FC: 5.6 ppm (when I tested it earlier--> shocked with 8 more gallons of 8% Bleach-> this should put my chlorine up to about 22ppm)
CC: 0.4 ppm
CH: 110 ppm
TA: 90 ppm

So my main question is what do I do next other than just brush the pool, keep the FC levels high >15 and wait for the pool to clear up? Should I try to adjust the PH at this point? Would I be better off using baking soda to do that in order to increase the Alkalinity too?

thanks for all of the help.

PS: I went ahead and did the side by side test that you asked me to do and here are the results from the Biogard Multi-test 1200-V

FC: 5 ish ppm <-- its harder to read and match than the taylor kit, but close, however the Biogard kit only goes up to 5 ppm for Free Chlorine.
PH" 7.2-7.5 <-- somewhere in between.. again its hard to read and match (taylor is much better)
TA: 110 ppm <-- same at Taylor test

thats all the test that the multi-test offers. For the most part its pretty accurate, but hard to read comparatively speaking.

[PoolDoc]

If you would, fill out the chart, so I can advise you better: http://pool9.net/pf-chart/

Also, tell me how your water *looks*.

[adambeazley]

looks dark and still a little cloudy. I can finally see the bottom at the shallow end, so that's good.

[PoolDoc]

Color?

[adambeazley]

http://www.abeazleydesign.com/images/my-pool.jpg

Blue, but still cloudy.

[PoolDoc]

+ Run your filter 24/7

+ Only backwash on a 4 psi or greater pressure rise.

+ Add 2 - 4 cups of DE filter powder (Lowes, Ace, Home Depot, Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00DSKPFYU/scouscho-20/)) to skimmer after each backwash. Watch for rapid pressure increase. Discontinue when pool is clear.

? What size filter do you have?

[adambeazley]

TR-140 with about 900 lbs of pool sand. Its a big one. I did just change the sand and rebuilt the pump about 3 weeks ago FYI.

[Watermom]

TR-140 with about 900 lbs of pool sand. Its a big one.
No kidding! That's huge!

[PoolDoc]

I'm surprised your water is not cleaning up rapidly. Definitely, do the DE test. I'm wondering if you got low quality filter sand -- or even sand that's NOT filter sand, such as coarse sand blast sand.

[adambeazley]

I used pool sand from home depot (I believe it said #20 on the bag)... http://www.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-50-lb-Pool-Filter-Sand-115350/202314677 thats all i could find on their website, i cant remember if this is the exact type I bought.

However, the pool was cloudy even before the sand change... I thought the sand change would help.

[adambeazley]

+ Run your filter 24/7

+ Only backwash on a 4 psi or greater pressure rise.

+ Add 2 - 4 cups of DE filter powder (Lowes, Ace, Home Depot, Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00DSKPFYU/scouscho-20/)) to skimmer after each backwash. Watch for rapid pressure increase. Discontinue when pool is clear.

? What size filter do you have?

So I noticed that there is DE filter powder for DE filters and sand filters... Does it matter which one i get? The one you linked to is for DE filters? Does it matter that i have a sand filter?

[Watermom]

The DE that is used to test to see if sand filters are working properly is the DE that is normally used in DE filters. One and the same.

[PoolDoc]

From what we've been able to tell this season, the Quikrete sand is very marginal in quality, and probably does not meet specs.

Definitely, do the DE test.

But also, go ahead and purchase a bag of labeled pool sand from a pool store. Then pop the top on your filter and grab a cup of sand from the filter. Replace the top, allow the sand to dry and then compare. Filter sand quality has at least 4 factors:
1. Range of sizes, within tight limits -- no very fine particles; no large ones.
2. Size -- average size is quite small.
3. Sand grains are sharp edged, not round.
4. Material is quartz, not other minerals.

If you can't tell by eye, take a dark sheet of paper, and spread some of the pool filter sand out in a very thin layer, and then photograph it in sunshine, using the macro setting on your camera. Then, do the same with the sand out of your filter.

If the Quikrete you have is like some of the other that we've seen, you may need to remove and replace the top 8 - 10" to get good filtration.

[adambeazley]

Well I did the DE for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and noticed that the pool continued to clear, but still couldn't see the bottom in the deep end. I stopped using the DE Saturday evening and just left the pump running without adding anything but about 4 gallons of bleach and as of Sunday, the pool it crystal clear.

I also found a small rip in the vinyl at the very bottom in the deep end on Saturday, so I patched it.

Thank you so much for all of the help, I think I've got a good handle on this now.

Thanks!!!

[Watermom]

Great to hear!