Installing a new Intex AGP with saltwater chlorination.

[tigers75]

We are in the process of setting up a 15' x 48" Intex AGP-metal frame (4400 gal roughly) and will be adding the saltwater intex chlorinator system to it also. After intial leveling and setup, I plan on using the BBB method for the intial start up and then use the saltwater system from there forward. Just trying to plan ahead and get the steps right from the start:
1) fill pool as well as using bleach, borax, and baking soda doses at prescribed times til pool is full.
2) then add pool salt, allow to dissolve (24 hrs?)
3) turn on salt water chlorinator and filter pump
4) monitor water/test and make adjustments based on readings (ph,ect.)

Does this seem the right order as far as initial filling, adding start up chemicals, followed by adding salt, dissolve period, the maintain from there?
After pool is completely filled, I understand to let salt dissolve until turning on saltwater chlorinator system, but can I run the filter pump after adding salt and before the salt is completely dissolved? Will is clog up filters and/or pump?

Any additional comments greatly appreciated!
Thanks
Jeff

[BigDave]

Sounds about right. I don't know if you can turn off the SWCG but I would try.

The Super Simple Recipie http://pool9.net/ssr/ (http://pool9.net/ssr/) should be a pretty good startup plan. Follow the "Intex Pool Care Plan" using dichlor until you have sufficient CYA in the pool then you can let the SWCG take over; it won't be able to keep up with the demand in an unstabilized pool. According to the pool calculator, 4lbs of dichlor (3/4 Cup at a time) will get CYA to 55 which should be good.

Important! Buy a Taylor K-2006 or K-2006c test kit. Order it today, you won't find it in a store. If you buy it through this page:http://pool9.net/test/ (http://pool9.net/test/), Poolforum gets some coin to keep the lights on.

Note: As a trial user you'll need to copy the links above then log out and paste them into the browser address bar.

[tigers75]

Its my understanding that with chlorinated pools, the sunlight fades out the chlorine quickly, therefore is there an ideal "range of time" in which the salt water system should be run each day? How about the pools filter pump also? I assume it will depend on a number of factors (sunlight exposure, initial water quality at start up fill, and the waters exposure to swimmers, suntan lotions,ect.)
Thanks for the info!

[Watermom]

As Dave mentioned above, having enough CYA in the pool will help prevent the chlorine from being lost too quickly to sunlight. As far as when is ideal to run the SWCG, I'll let someone else who has one give you advice about that.

Are you aware that those Intex SWCGs have a copper electrode? You do not want copper in your pool. Contrary to popular belief, it is copper that stains things and turns blonde hair green, not chlorine. You can disconnect the copper electrode and use the SWCG without it.

[tigers75]

Yes have been looking into how to disconnect the copper part.

[CarlD]

Why you add Borax and Baking soda unless your pH and T/A were low?

[tigers75]

Yes Carl, I won't initially add the Borax or baking soda until i have tested the water. Only plan on having these on hand to make adjustments. This is our first pool, so I think there will be some trial and error. Hopefully less error, so the family can enjoy the pool throughout the summer.

[Watermom]

We'll be around if you need some help while you are in the learning curve! ;)

[tigers75]

Nice! Thanks All!

Finished leveling this afternoon. Tomorrow morning, checking leveling one final time, followed by laying down a tarp, then foam board (Gorilla tape on all seams), the pool ground cover on top of that, and then pool assembly, and finally dropping the hose in to start filling. I have been so meticulous in getting the leveled spot perfect, it almost seems to good to be true? We'll see.

Picked up all other chemicals needed in the SS Recipe, and for the BBB method of continual care! Wish me luck!

[Watermom]

Leveling is the hardest part. I have no idea how long we worked to get the area level when we put in our first pool years ago. Hope the rest is smooth sailing for you. :)

[tigers75]

Have started to fill and after testing out water flow rate into a 5 gallon bucket, guessing 9 hrs to fill (+ or -). Have added the 2 doses of bleach. Plan on filling tonight, shutting water off before bed time and if not to late, may get the 110 lbs of pool salt into the pool tonight also. That brings up my next questions for tonight: I will start up filter pump and get things circulating (will wait to turn on SWCG until salt is completely dissolved).......do I add anything else tonight? I read that in the "CARE" section/recipe, to add dichlor and equal parts Borax together each evening. Do I officially start adding those tonight?

Thanks for the advice everyone! Did the bucket test (5 gallon bucket with 1/4 cup bleach) and water was clear as can be, so no initial issues I believe in water quality.

[Watermom]

You can start whenever your pool is full. Have you checked the pH of your fill water?

[tigers75]

YES--tested it this afternoon:
CL/BR=0....this was prior to 2 doses of bleach being added during filling
PH=7.5
ALKALINITY=70
HARDNESS=90
Did not test for CYA yet, was going to wait 24 hrs until pool was filled, salt was added and dissolved, and pump was running for a while. After filling and adding salt, how long should I run the filter/pump the first night? All night long to circulate the salt throughout the pool?

[Watermom]

You can ignore the bromine side of your tester since this is a chlorine pool.
Your pH, alk and hardness all look fine. Don't test for CYA. Since it is a fresh fill, there won't be any in there yet and you'll just be wasting your reagents. CYA is not a test you need to run all that often. Since you are using dichlor, it will gradually add CYA. (For every 10ppm of chlorine that it adds, it adds 9ppm of CYA.) So, wait awhile to test for it.

If it were my pool with new equipment, I would probably not run it unattended overnight in case there were any problems with something until you have had a chance to make sure everything is working properly. Run it as many hours as you can but I'd turn it off before going to bed the first night. Just my opinion.

[tigers75]

Great! Thanks for the advice! Plan on running filter for a couple of hours after adding salt to start recirculating. Will also start on nightly "care recipe" of dichlor and borax (equal parts). All this upfront advice has been so helpful!

[tigers75]

One question I forgot to check with: I occasionally have pine needles falling into the pool--will the acidity of those have a great enough effect that it will mess with readings?
And also...anything special to pay attention to if I have numerous days of rainfall?
Thanks again

[Watermom]

i have no idea about the pine needles, but I doubt it.

The biggest problem that rain causes is that people don't get check their pools. Then, they get algae and assume it was caused by the rain. As long as you remember that you still need to keep the chlorine and pH levels in check, you are fine.

[tigers75]

After I have added the 4lbs of dichlor to get the CYA up, my understanding is that the SWCG should be able to handle the levels at that point?

Is it still recommended to to the dichlor/borax combo every night from here on out?

[tigers75]

Full Day 2 for my new setup and filling. Salt was added the first night (sunday night) and the first dichlor /borax batch added the last two nights. Had less then 0.5 chlorine reading last night. Added nightly dose dichlor/borax mix and ran pump for 6.5 hrs overnight. This morning water readings are as followed:
CL=5
pH=7.5
Alkalinity=70ppm
Total Hardness=100ppm
CYA=filled tube to 30ppm and black dot faded but I could still see it. Not sure what to do about this?
Chlorine reading of 5.....Is that to high? I am using test kit "HTH 6-way" from Walmart, and the test guide says chlorine should be between 1-4 ppm.

Will this eventually lower on its own during day?
With CL reading of 5, should I still dichlor/borax nightly after SWCG is hooked up? Should I test the CL in the evening prior to adding the nightly dichlor/borax mix?
Pool will be sitting in full sunlight most of the day. No swimmers in it yet, still a little to cold at 60 degrees.
Planning on turning on salt water chlorine generator tonight and running along side filter/pump.

Thanks in advance again for your input.

[Watermom]

Chlorine in a pool without much CYA doesn't stick around long so, yes, your chlorine will come down. Your tester may say that chlorine should be between 1-4ppm but it actually isn't that simple. How high your chlorine level needs to be depends on your CYA level. (See the Best Guess Chlorine Chart below for more about that.) However, when you have a pool with a SWCG, you need to follow your SWCG manufacturers recommendation for how high the CYA needs to be. You'll want to continue to use dichlor until your CYA is a the level you need it to be. At that point, your SWCG will take over the chlorine production for you.

Your pH is great at 7.5 so no need right now to add any more Borax.

CarlD has an SWCG. I'm going to ask him to look in on this thread and walk you through the rest of your start up with it.

[tigers75]

Sounds good, thank you! Yes, I was wondering if it was worth starting up the SWCG now to assist with the chlorine, or wait until the chlorine level has stabilized along with the CYA together, and then start using it? Looks like I only have a couple of CYA test in my kit.........do they sell individual CYA testing kit?

[BigDave]

Do you know how much dichlor you've used(easy if it came in 1lb bags)? We could calculate approximate CYA added by dichlor if we knew. No need to test CYA every day, as you know there are very few tests in the kit.

[tigers75]

Yes I have used 1 dose, which for 4400 gallons is 3/4 cup, and I have also added equal part (3/4 cup) Borax at same time the last 2 nights. My wife picked up a salt stick test kit today also. Tested that and it came up around 5.4 reading which on this test kit equals 1960ppm.

I understand that the CYA will take a little while to up itself with this being a fresh fill only 2 days ago.

[Watermom]

To answer another of your questions above, yes, you can just buy CYA reagent. That is one that runs out quickly. It is R-0013 and if you click on the test kit link in my signature, you'll find the link to be able to order it at Amazon.

[tigers75]

Tested CL and pH this am before leaving for work and got this:
CL=orange color....guessing above 20ppm?
pH=7.5

Assuming the 3/4 cup dichlor and 3/4 cup borax nightly has obviously raised chlorine levels. Will test again tonight, run pump again for another 6 hrs overnight. I am thinking of skipping tonight dichlor/borax dump in, and to see how much the chlorine will drop in a 24 hr period. Will then check again tomorrow morning as well as, I will now turn on the SWCG nightly and see what readings will be running that.

**Once levels are all stable, should I add anything nightly to maintain? Smaller amounts of dichlor/borax, bleach,ect?
Thanks for info, I have told my wife I am hell-bent on preventing any weird color bloom in the water if possible! haha!

[BigDave]

If the OTO is orange this evening, skip tonight's dose.

I could be way off, but I think 3/4C of dichlor should be between 9 and 12oz. If it is, in 4400 gallons, it will raise CYA 8-10 for each dose. Once you've used 5 doses, test CYA again.

After the CYA is about 50, you might consider using bleach for daily (nightly) chlorination. If the dichlor is bagged, use up any open bags before switching.

"Nightly to maintain": Test FC, CC, and pH nightly. Add enough chlorine so that the FC is at or above the minimum on the Best Guess chart when you test the next evening.

[PoolDoc]

. . . membership upgraded. Cool thread!

Do you have pictures I can post? (poolforum@gmail.com) Or you can post them, using Photobucket or whatever.

[tigers75]

Yes, photos to come this week! I have pics from the initial spray painted circle in the grass, to leveling, tarp and foam board underlament, pool set-up, and water in! Coming soon :)

[tigers75]

Day 4 and things are looking great. Water is clear, temps up to 68 degrees. Skipped last nights dichlor/borax dose and ran pump 6hrs.
This mornings readings:
pH=7.4
CL=5
ALkalinity= 80
hardness= 90
salt= showed 6 on scale equaling 2490ppm

Looking to continue running filter pump 6hrs a night, and will start SWCG tonight. If the SWCG shows that the salt level is to low, I will turn that off, and use the included SWCG guide/manual on how to add a little salt to up the PPM, wait for that to completely dissolve and then resume using SWCG. I understand that its important to add the salt in small increments to get the salt ppm reading up for the SWCG to operate efficiently and produce chlorine, also knowing that the only way to DECREASE the salt ppm is to drain some water and refill.

I think the only questions I have are:
1)When should I test my CYA again? I realize that an accurate reading may take a few days to get since the CYA is a slow developer.
2)If my chlorine level stays in the range of 1 -4 (ideally) without dropping off daily to fast, is it safe to say the CYA has been established? Will I ever need to add a separate CYA chemical to keep its reading with in range? (2 days ago the CYA ready 30ppm and I could STILL see the black dot on test tube)
3)If the SWCG can maintain accurate and safe chlorine levels (checking them daily of course), do I still need to add any dichlor/borax nightly dose for maitanence? I realize that with more activity and hot direct sunlight days this summer, this will also affect and vary the chlorine levels.
4)How can I add photos of my project of this pool--start to finish--would like to share.

Taylor k2006 I ordered from amazon is on backorder and not arriving til June 2 at the earliest, so for now I have been using the HTH 6way test kit from Walmart.
Thanks in advance as usual everyone!

[PoolDoc]

1. I'd wait at least till you've used 5 more doses of dichlor

2,3. CYA is effective in any range above 20 ppm. However, your SWCG will keep up better at higher levels. With the Intex SWCG, you'll probably need to 'boost' chlorine levels weekly with either some dichlor or some bleach.

4. Either email them to poolforum@gmail.com (FULL SIZE!) or post them using links Photobucket, Picasa or what have you.

[BigDave]

One of the things I like about dichlor for startup is that it's the second quickest way to get CYA in the water (pre-dissolved, liquid CYA being faster). No need to wait; when the dichlor's dissolved, the pool has it's CYA.

1) I would continue to chlorinate as needed with dichlor / Borax until a total of 4 lbs (about five 3/4C doses) of dichlor are used. At that point (a few hours after the latest dose of dichlor), measure CYA and report back total dichlor used, current CYA level, pH, TA, FC and CC.

2) Sort of. FC of 1-4 might be kinda low. Please consult Ben's Best Guess Chart (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html) and find FC range for given CYA level. This can be reduced a bit for SWCG users who run SWCG during daylight and swimming times but tweak that later - let's get the pool running now.

3) Nope, dichlor until CYA level is established then get chlorine from SWCG, supplement with bleach as needed.

4) email pictures to poolforum@gmail.com, reference thread 23425.

edit: Uhh ... What PoolDoc says goes.

[PoolDoc]

One of the things . . .

Hm-m-mh. Simul-post much? ;)

[tigers75]

Thank You!
Since yesterday mornings CL level was "orange" (guessing 15-20) and has dropped down to 5 now, I think I am going to wait and let the chlorine level drop a little, stay with using the dichlor/borax to maintain chlorine levels and to build up CYA when needed, for a few more doses.....and then turn on the SWCG.

You guys have been great in my start up, can't give praise enough!

[PoolDoc]

thanks.

[tigers75]

Well, it has officially been one week and we are totally pleased with how things in "pool chemical country" are concerned so far! We have crystal clear water, that is holding a steady chlorine level (4-5) as well as a steady ph (7.4). Granted the temps have been cooler last week, and very minimal usage due to the water temp still around 70 degrees. I am anxiously waiting for my K-2006 test kit, due to be delivered in another week. At that point I will make a full set of test results and use these as my base line for the rest of the summer and how to tackle any sudden water issues.
I have not added anything...I mean nothing for the last 4 days chemical wise. No bleach, borax, dichlor, nothing. I still have crystal clear water, with NO signs of any cloudy water or any green algae growth. I have run the filter pump for 6 hrs each night, and have yet to SWCG. According to my last salt test, I believe Iam at 2700ppm. I believe the Intex SWCG I have works best on 3000ppm? Once I see chlorine levels dip a little I will fire up the SWCG and maintain levels, AND if need be add any additional salt to allow the SWCG to work as efficiently as it can.

My curious question: is it possible for me to go 4-7 days without adding any chemicals (bleach or dichlor/borax) and still maintain stable CL and pH levels day after day? I feel that each night, testing the levels I will see some major divergence in numbers, which would result in making some sort of overnight adjustment. Can using the BBB method be this simple and efficient. I do totally expect that with warmer temps, and more usage of the pool, that numbers will definately fluctuate, but for now I am loving it! So easy.
As far as the SWCG is concerned, I plan on letting CL levels drop down to 2 or 3 and then start nightly use of it. Should I test salt levels again, and raise them now according to what the SWCG recommends, OR wait and see how the SWCG runs at its current level? This intex system, will let me know if salt levels are to low, therefore, I will have to shut it down and slowly dissolve in small amounts to make the machine happy. THoughts on this anyone??

[PoolDoc]

If you mean, can you go 7 days without adding anything, other than operating an SWCG, then the answer is yes.

If you mean, can you go 7 days without adding anything and without using an SWCG . . . the answer is, "Not without special prep" *or* using the HiC2 method" (CYA> 150 ppm; FC > 15 ppm 1x per week).

[tigers75]

Ok....our INtex 15'x48" metal frame has been up and running since Mother's day with no issues except, this New England weather hasn't made it the warmest,pool swimming temps yet this year! After using the 6-way test kit from Walmart, I have been able to stabilize the pH and CL each day to be within acceptable ranges, and we have NO sign of any algae growth and NO cloudy water issues! Yippy! I finally received my Taylor k-2006 kit yesterday and todays official numbers are as followed:
FC=3ppm
CC= 0.5
pH=7.5
Total Alkalinity=70ppm
Calcium Hardness=80ppm
CYA= 30ppm. I added test fluid until it reached the top of the testing tube which was 30ppm, yet I could still see the black dot. Very cloudy, but still visible.
I also tested the salt level, and it was 1960ppm. The INtex SWCG I am using likes at least 2500ppm, so I threw in more salt, and ran the pump 24 hrs dissolving it, and finally ended up with a salt level of 2490ppm. I will occasionally test and add salt as necessary depending on how much water we splash out of pool and if any more water needs to be added in the future.
Since Mothers Day I have only added 4 doses of dichlor/borax mixture, totally 3 cups. (1 dose=3/4 for 4450 gallons).
I continue to run the filter pump for 6 hrs nightly and the SWCG for 5 hrs nightly, and have found that pH and CL levels each mornings are right in range and good.

My questions at this point are:
1) Do I have to worry about that lower CYA level and the black dot test results? If I start to see chlorine burning off quicker with more frequent pool use and hotter sunny days (pool is mainly full sun exposure), do you recommend using a CYA chemical to up it a little? I guess I could use maybe 1/2 dose of dichlor/borax to up the CYA..keeping in mind that it will also up CL, so I probably won't have to run the SWCG for a small time frame to allow CL levels to stabilize?
2) Do I need to worry much about the Total alkalinity and/or calcium hardness levels with this seasonal setup?
3) How about the FC and CC test results? Any reason to be concerned or need for adjustment on either of these two?

Thanks again for everyones help on using the BBB method! Close friends are impressed with how crystal clear our pool has stayed and how much knowledge I have gained from this website and its forum questions and answers! As a matter of fact, last week while at a big box store, I overheard a young lady and her mother talking about buying all these chemicals that were on sale because they were last years supply. I interrupted them and told them to look into the BBB method and this website and about the ease of using all this info to better your pool with less harsh chemicals! She immediately started taking note of your website and its advice! Looking forward to a hot, sunny summer with clear water, and an enjoyable AG pool!!!

[PoolDoc]

1. Your CYA is low, for use with an SWCG. Add some stabilizer . . . or use some dichlor. Sams Club has inexpensive undiluted dichlor: http://pool9.net/sams-dichlor24/

2. Only worry about calcium if it's too HIGH (> 300 ppm). You can ignore it. Only worry about TA if it's too high (>160 ppm) OR if you are having trouble with the pH level wandering all over the place.

3. Normally, with the FAS-DPD test, you shouldn't be concerned with a 1 drop CC reading (0.5 ppm with 10ml sample, 0.2 ppm with a 25 ml sample). If you continue to see a 0.5 ppm CC, you can run a test with a 25 ml sample, and see if it's just a '1 drop' error, or if you really do have 0.4 or 0.6 ppm CC.

Even then, on outdoor pools CC levels quickly disappear if you maintain chlorine levels -- and have some sunshine.

[PoolDoc]

Oh, and thanks for the promotion! ;)

[Watermom]

Oh, and thanks for the promotion! ;)
Of course, that means you will probably not be the pool store's favorite customer!

Your SWCG manual should give the recommended CYA level for that particular unit.

[tigers75]

Hello folk, just looking to touch base with some test numbers to make sure Iam still on course. Our pool has been up and filled since Mother's Day, and we have had NO issues at all, thanks to everyones advice and the help on this site! Thanks a million! Our pool get pretty much direct sunlight from about 10am til 6pm daily. Our temp is up to about 78 degrees, and the whole family (and neighbors) are enjoying it! Nothing like walking into your backyard to cool off!
*I run the pump/filter nightly from 6-8 hours, depending on that days usage, or if alot of debris has blown into pool.
*I run the SWCG anywhere from 5-7 hours night also, depending on on CL numbers and that days usage.
*I usually only test for CL and pH levels daily, and then every 10-14 days run the full Taylor kit tests.

Using the Taylor kit my numbers this am are as followed:
FC=4
CC=0.2
ph=7.5
Alkalinity=70
Calcium Hardness=80
CYA=40
salt=2750ppm

I only run pump and SWCG nightly to maintain my CL levels. After a weekend or a couple of days of heavy usage, or if CL drops rapidly, I will pick a night--skip SWCG usage, and add a dose of dichlor/borax to bump up levels by morning. I have only had to do that once.
Any advice or recommendations on anything based on these numbers? Like I said, we have a totally clear pool which holds daily CL and ph levels really good.
Thanks in advance!
BTW...I emailed off some photos of our pools build process from start to finish, yet I can't find them anywhere?

[Watermom]

Your numbers look fine. The only thing I am wondering about is your CYA. Does your SWCG manual not call for a higher reading than that?

Can't remember if we suggested this to you previously and don't have time right now to rescan the whole thread to find out but...... just use a 10mL sample instead of a 25mL one. It will make your testing reagents last longer. You'll multiply by 0.5 instead of 0.2.

Did you disconnect the copper electrode to your SWCG?

[tigers75]

Yes I unplugged the copper electrode from day one. I had issues initially getting the CYA up. The SWCG has been very consistent in keeping the CL in range, and I am not seeing giant shifts in the CL, so I assume the CYA level is functional at its level?
Would it be wise to NOT use the SWCG for a couple of days, and instead add a nightly dose of dichlor/borax to up the CYA, retest and if find, continue on using SWCG from there? Or just stay the same course, I am on?

[Watermom]

Do you have your manual for your unit? Or can look it up online? I'd try and find out what the required CYA level is for your SWCG.

[PoolDoc]

All the manuals are available online at http://www.intexcorp.com/index.php/manual-video/

[tigers75]

Yes, so according to the Intex "preferred water chemistry readings", they have this in the manual for CYA levels:
Minimum-10ppm
Ideal-20-40ppm
maximum-50ppm

They also have readings for free chlorine:
minimum-0ppm
ideal-0.5-3.0ppm
maximum-5.0ppm

Combined Chlorine:
minimum-0
ideal-0
maximum-0.2ppm

pH:
minimum-7.2
ideal-7.4-7.6
maximum-7.8

I guess based on their preferred readings, my CYA of 40 is right in the middle. Does this seem to low? Do I assume that since I am maintaining consistant levels for pH and CL, have a clear pool with no signs of algae bloom,ect. that this is ok?
Thanks everyone again.

[PoolDoc]

You can certainly run a pool successfully with those levels.

[tigers75]

Hello all! It has been a great summer so far with our pool and all things seem to be pretty much right on course. I noticed over the past couple of days, that the pool water has a slight haziness look to it? I did the full Taylor test this am and the results are as followed:
fc=2
cc=0
ph=7.5
alkalinity=70
calcium hardness=70
CYA=50-55
salt= 6 or equivalent to 2490ppm
CL=2.5
Due to splashing around, rain water,ect. I will add more pool salt to get the salt level up to at least 3000ppm, which is recommended for the SWCG. I have a newly replaced pump filter.
**Along with adding more salt, and running pump for a few hours to mix it in, should I turn off the SWCG tonight, and add in a 1/2 or 1/4 dose of dichlor/borax mixture to help clean up slight haziness??
Any suggestions or previous experience (stories) much appreciated.
Thanks

[Watermom]

It wouldn't hurt and the haziness may be from your chlorine being a little low. If that is the case, shocking it may help clear it up.

[PoolDoc]

Keep in mind that your NORMAL chlorine level needs to be about 10% of your CYA level -- so 6 ppm in your case. You can go as low as 5% if EVERYTHING is perfect -- low bather load, no thunderstorm debris, good filtration, no trace of algae, etc -- but otherwise it needs to be closer to 10%.

'Recovery' chlorination needs to be 10 - 20% of your CYA level, (9 - 12 ppm), and is probably what you need at the moment.