Ecostar VSP output safe for rest of the pool system?

[Kidney]

Hi, first-time poster here,

My 15,000-gallon pool and spa (2" piping) just got a new Hayward system (Ecostar 3400 VSP, ProGrid DE 6020 and 400 BTU heater mostly used for the spa) and my Polaris 380 just got a new PB4-60 booster pump that uses 1.5" piping.

Can I safely run the VSP at full speed (3450rpm) for the spa or with auto priming, or should I set it at a lower speed (if so, how much?) and with a 3 Minute Prime? (From manual: "It is recommended to set the maximum speed in order to not exceed the maximum flow rate[ of 80 GPM for 2" piping]" but I have no idea if that's a hard requirement or just a soft recommendation and what speed provides 80 GPM.)

Can the DE filter and heater (and the rest of the pool system) take the flow output by the Ecostar at full speed?

Thanks!

[Watermom]

I'm going to let someone else answer your plumbing question but just wanted to welcome you to the Pool Forum!

[Kidney]

Thank you Watermom!

[Kidney]

Later today, I will fill in the PF Pool Chart to better show what I am dealing with. I hope this helps a fellow forum member answer my questions above. I will have more questions coming after that but for now, I'm really wondering if I should reduce the upper speed of my Ecostar VSP...

[mas985]

The most vulnerable piece of equipment is the filter. But with that filter, you don't have anything to worry about since max flow rate is 150 GPM and the EcoStar will never reach that let alone the APSP flow rate of 120 GPM.

Also, the flow rate recommendations for PVC pipes are mainly for water hammer. You can exceed that without much worry about any damage. So you can technically run as high as you want although I would keep the filter pressure below 25 PSI.

Also, how many spa jets do you have and do you know what size? (e.g. 3/8" or 7/16")

Is the spa on 2" pipe as well?

[Kidney]

Thank you Mark! Glad to hear I don't have to worry. The DE6020's manual shows a "design flow rate" of 120gpm. I guess that corresponds to your second number?

I have 4 jets in the spa and the piping feeding them out of the equipment pad is 2" but not sure it stays that way underground. I don't know the size of the spa jets unfortunately.

I filled up the PF Pool Chart. I so far run the VSP for 21h15 a day at 600rpm and at 2400rpm for 2h30 when my Polaris 380 is running its 2h daily cleaning powered by its PB4-60 booster. Since I have the booster pump, could I reduce the VSP speed to the 1000rpm (or less?) at which I often see the Ecostar being recommended to run for max efficiency? How do I know I am getting proper skimming other than seeing all debris not making it in the Polaris ending up in the 2 pool skimmers (spa has none but overflows in pool)?

When I run the VSP at full speed there is no air in its basket (there is air however at much lower speeds, is this normal?), I hear some noises (sounds like small stones) around the 6-position variflow valve interfacing the filter: the equipment installers said this is normal due to the high water flow. I do hope that is nothing bad like cavitation. For information, I made sure more than 10" of straight piping feeds the VSP.

I am reading the "BBB" to get up to speed re testing and what I am learning is very interesting and quite exciting :-) Once this is understood and used, I will look into remotely controlling the system for spa operation...

[mas985]

There is no point in reducing the RPM of VS pump below 800-1000 RPM. That is the most efficient speed and efficiency drops off with lower speeds. And yes, you should be able to lower RPM on the pump while running the booster although it still isn't as efficient as running a pressure cleaner without a booster at higher RPM.


How do I know I am getting proper skimming other than seeing all debris not making it in the Polaris ending up in the 2 pool skimmers (spa has none but overflows in pool)?That's pretty much it.

Also, I serious doubt you need that much run time for your pump. Run time is mostly for removing debris from the pool. Generally skimming will occur within the first hour or two and after that, not much happens unless something else falls in the pool. So you are much better off with 2 periods of 2 hour run time and set the speeds for optimal cleaning. Adjust the pump run time based upon how well it keeps the pool clean. You will probably find that you do not see any difference at the reduced run time.


I hear some noises (sounds like small stones) around the 6-position variflow valve interfacing the filter: the equipment installers said this is normal due to the high water flow. That is NOT normal and a good indication of cavitation so I would avoid running the pump at full speed. Backwash valves can cavitate under the right conditions.

[PoolDoc]

What damages the filter is pressure, not flow per se. If the pressure IN the tank, or ACROSS the grids gets to be too high, you will likely damage the filter. This is much, much more likely to be an issue if the filter is dirty than if it's clean.

Within the piping, very high flow can lead to air hammer and/or hydraulic shock especially if air is present. These events will break plastic piping and valves. I once saw someone shatter a 6" S-80 PVC pipe that was connected to the pool's main drain, and was 6 feet below water level. THAT was impressive. I had to wade through 2 feet of flowing water to get to a valve that would shut off the flow.

. . . membership

[Kidney]

Yeah... Membership :-)

The VSP outlet connects to the VariFlow intake with a 90° elbow through a total of perhaps 2 or 3 ft (or less) of piping, i.e. both are quite close and it is hard to know for sure where the noise came from. I'm away from the system right now but will recheck soon to see if I still hear the noise. It was clearly present when the new equipment was just installed and had to filter back to clear a pool that over 2 weeks off had become dark green, almost black. (After close to 15 years, the whole pad had aged to the point of needing replacement and delays occurred.) Once the water was clear again and the filter washed, I am not sure the noise remained as strong. As I said I will recheck. What remains however is the air at lower speeds under the pump lid. Pressure in the filter is low at low speeds and within range at max speed, good.

My plan is to screw all Jandys tight, make sure all baskets/skimmers are free of debris, perhaps prime the pump by hose and see whether air enters the pump lid when none should be expected (right?): I surely hope not.

It would be sad not having peace of mind when running at full speed and using the spa to avoid possible cavitation. Is there a way of making sure it is cavitation and not something else? If it is, I wonder whether I should call the installers back to solve the problem. Could giving more space between VSP output and valve intake help?

Re pump run times, I've found a 1984 study that yes says you can do away with turning over once a day but everybody else including the DoE today recommend the one-a-day turnover rate. At 600rpm to use only 43/60 Watts max instead of IIRC about 200 Watts at 1000rpm, there probably is some money to save. I need to sit down and do the maths. At 600rpm one calculator gave me a turnover time of 22h, long but energy efficient (and it makes the spa nicely spill over into the crystal clear pool, which BTW is scheduled for resurfacing next week). This could be cheaper than 2x3h at 3450rpm, the speed at which I guess my old SP3015X20AZ single-speed pump was revving. Isn't that the whole point of a VSP, running it longer at much lower speeds? Not sure I would save more over time had I purchased a simple one speed pump and running it no more than 4hours a day but at 3450rpm.

In any case I shall have my Taylor kits on the way very soon for BBB. Can't wait! I wonder whether I can continue using my stock of Trichlor tablets or whether I should only pour generic chlorox... Need to continue reading!

[mas985]

Sorry, I have to disagree. Pressure is potential energy and flow rate is kinetic energy and only kinetic energy can cause damage. Pressure on it's own will not cause damage to the media although if high enough it could burst the tank but then all that potential energy is immediately converted to kinetic so it is still the kinetic energy that does the damage.

However, it is true that there is a relationship between pressure differential (head) and flow rate but it is still the kinetic energy of the flow that causes the damage.

Potential energy converts to kinetic energy which in turn causes the damage.

It is a bit like voltage and current. It isn't the voltage that kills you, it is the current (electron flow) although the voltage causes the current.