Pool automation

[gonzapa]

Just bought a house with an inground pool.

I am looking to find out what are the options to automate the pool maintenance and what is the bes value system out there

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How may tablets should I add to the clorintor. Fill to top or just a few at a time?

[PoolDoc]

1. "Best value" depends on you, and your budget as much as anything else.

2. There's 'automation' that works and there's what I consider 'gee-whiz'.

Automation that works is mostly 'labor-saving' rather than truly automatic. In general, anything for pools that is electronic is less reliable, and harder to service, than electro-mechanical parts. If you want 'labor-saving', go electro-mechanical. If you want to twiddle with your pool from your iPhone, go electronic -- but it won't necessarily save time or make anything easier.

Here's a list of what we've found works:

+ An oversized filter with a right-size 2 speed pump on a electro-mechanical timer
+ A Polaris 280 with booster on a multi-component timer that also operates the pump.
+ An AutoPilot or Goldline saltwater chlorinator (SWCG) . . . but ONLY if your pool is salt compatible. Many older pools are NOT.

Electronics work better in areas with few or no thunderstorms. In New Jersey, it's best to install a surge protector, even for just an SWCG. You can install a booster cleaner, only if you have the piping for it. If not, you *may* be able to install a pressure side cleaner that connects to one of the pool returns, but that depends on your pool.

Regarding tablets: if you have an RB-320, fill it up. If you have a Hayward feeder, the feed control valve often does not work, so you may have to ration tablets.

[gonzapa]

I wanted to automate the monitoring of the pool/ redo the electrical.
It drives me crazy having to pull thee plug of the pump from the outlet as the only method to turn on and off things.

I have a neptune controler from My salt water reef I can use to monitor PH and orp and turn pumps on and off. just wondering if before I rewire evertying I should do a DYI with my fishtank controller or bit the bullet and buy an actual pool system.

one last question is automatic valves. not sure what the purpose for having them is, currently everythign is manual and always open. there are 3 valves total 2 skimmers one main. what would be the purpose for automating them?

[PoolDoc]

Don't like pulling a plug? Get a switch! That's 1930's technology; you don't need electronics for that!

You may have a pH and ORP controller; that doesn't mean it's accurate. Any *competent* maker or vendor of pH electrodes will tell you that you must REGULARLY calibrate the meter, using at least 2 buffer solutions. Without regular calibration, pH meters are LESS accurate than an $8 OTO/phenol red testkit.

ORP is a different beast. Though ORP electrodes don't drift the way pH electrodes do, it's rather hard to say what ORP measures. But it's easy to say what it does NOT measure: it does NOT measure chlorine levels. It does correspond somewhat to the HOCl fraction of the oxidizing chlorine species present in the water, minus the effect of all the reducing agents in the water.

I am *very* familiar with ORP / pH control systems; I sold and serviced $10,000 commercial systems for a number of years. Believe me, they will not make your life easier. I can't prove it, but I think finding this out for themselves explains why Pentair has switched its 'automatic' chemical control systems from pH/ORP based, to timers! They don't tell you that, at least not very clearly, because a time clock is SO much more IMPRESSIVE, when you hide it behind a computer.

You want to be smart about it? Do NOT get an ORP/ph controller for your pool, AND *do* buy the buffers and learn to properly calibrate your saltwater control system. (If your system says it doesn't need to be calibrated . . . upgrade to a better system not made in China!)

Automatic valves can have a place, and can be moderately reliable, although not nearly as a reliable as manual valves. If you have a multi-feature / multi-function pool with a spa, an infinity edge, and a waterfall or fountain, auto valves properly tied to a control system can make sense of a what is other wise a hard-to-understand switch over system. But, putting auto valves on a plain pool + pump + filter is just needless and useless.

If you want to automate something harmlessly, get a fancy lighting system. A lot of people enjoy those, but if it breaks, your pool still works!

[PoolDoc]

I should add -- you can automate pool cleaning usefully. Here's a link to an Amazon search for robotic pool cleaners:
4-star rated robotic pool cleaners at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/s/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&pageMinusResults=1&suo=1400082073840&tag=scouscho-20&url=search-alias%3Dlawngarden#/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dlawngarden&field-keywords=aquabot&sprefix=aquabo%2Clawngarden&rh=i%3Alawngarden%2Ck%3Aaquabot&sepatfbtf=true&tc=1400082076197&linkId=OZH4RYXX5R726ZIQ)

Avoid the ones with only 3 or 4 ratings. The search is for models shipped from Amazon; this puts you inside Amazon's 30-day return period. Returning stuff to 3rd party sellers on Amazon is much harder. If you find one you like, READ the manual from the manufacturer, FIRST. Some have limitations that make the work well on some pools, but not others.

I'll ask CarlD to take a look. He's used several of these and likes them; my experience was been with monstrous commercial models that are an expensive PITA.

[CarlD]

Pretty much all of the house-shaped robotics work the same. Aquabot, Hayward, Blue Diamond, Dolphin, Dirt Devil, PoolBlaster (They now have a robotic), Swimbot. The original was invented in Israel and I understand that there was a family feud that caused spinoffs. I'm not sure which was the first or the first spin-off--I can only guess that it was Aquabot and Dolphin.

They have 2 or 3 motors. The first is simple suction--it vacuums, into a bag or filter. These filters/bags are very dense and filter about as well as a DE filter. They also suck the unit to the floor or walls at the same time. The filter or bag can be easy or difficult to clean, depending on the brand.

The other 1 or 2 motors drive the front and rear rollers. 2 motor units have split rollers that allow the left and right sides to move independently, turning more easily, and requiring 2 motors. Most of them work by sensing changes in the electrical demand, such as when it hits a wall, and processing that info in its base-station/power supply computer. That computer also randomly changes the unit's directions.
The roller act to brush the pool as well as drive the unit. If it's climbing the walls (it can be set to do that) it means you never have to brush your pool!

The handle is an interesting part of the cleaner. When the unit climbs the wall (that's where the vacuum's suction is really important), the handle floats to support the top of the unit. It is always set to an angle because, when the unit reaches the water line, it will start to move. Because it's angled, it moves sideways, crab-like, along the wall. The floating cord can get a bit tangled. Therefore, you move the handle to the opposite angle for the next cleaning, so it moves along the waterline the other way.

I've not used one without a remote, but they range from very cool, with a joystick and LCD display--Dolphin Dynamic, to simple like a simple TV remote--Blue Diamond.

1) Blue Diamond. This is what I have now with wireless remote. The BD is fast and powerful, enough so it can chew up its own floating cord if you're not careful. It can wear the liner where the bottom hits the wall and when moving along the waterline, when it hits a perpendicular wall, it can hang there too long. It also gets hung up on my ladder--but that's an-to-remove item for me. It doesn't climb my wedding cake steps.

But it's fast and effective, and the bag is VERY easy to wash out in a 5 gal bucket. It's only one layer but very finely woven. The remote is nearly useless--good mainly for turning wall-climbing on and off but difficult to "drive" because it has 4 direction buttons rather than a joystick. I did have it fail once, and the company was AMAZING about fixing it--fast, free, and easy! I had it back in days. It's been fine for years now.

2) Dolphin. I had a Dolphin Dynamic and for the first 2 years it was amazing! It takes far longer to clean the pool than the B-D, 4-8 hours so it's something you do overnight or just before going to work. It had no problem with the ladder, being a bigger and heavier unit. However, the motors are, in comparison, tiny--about the size of the old frozen OJ cans--1/3 the size of the B-D's. The bags are thick, multi-layered and VERY effective at collecting dirt--and tougher to clean than a Blue Diamond's After rinsing all the loose dirt out you have to toss it in a washing machine. But they work really effectively. The remote was pretty cool--LCD display, joystick, multiple menus of choices that make it easy to tailor the unit to your pool. The antenna for the remote is hidden in the power-supply's molded in power supply.

But, it's heavier than the B-D, and once I started having problems it never worked right again. I gather Dolphin no longer uses the same company for support so....They also have a laser-based unit, the Nautilus I've heard good things about.

3) Aquabot. I don't know much about them but I do know belts fail and are expensive--a friend had one and I was able to get him a belt.

As for other automation, I know little about it. There are Jandy ball valves designed to work with actuators, but I only see them as useful for turning solar panels on and off remotely.

[PoolDoc]

Thanks, Carl. That's a helpful summary.



There are Jandy ball valves designed to work with actuators, but I only see them as useful for turning solar panels on and off remotely.

Good point. That would be another valid use of automatic valves, since it's necessary to set valve position based on temperature, possible freezing, insolation, and more. It's not practical for many people to run out and make all those changes manually.

[CarlD]

Good point. That would be another valid use of automatic valves, since it's necessary to set valve position based on temperature, possible freezing, insolation, and more. It's not practical for many people to run out and make all those changes manually.

Which I always seem to be doing! :)

[gonzapa]

This is Awesome information. I will stick to the strips for everyother day use and once a week I will take it to the pool store which is only 3 blocks away for a real test.

I ended up getting a dolphin deluxe 4. I tried a polaris p93 which looked way cooler but it got stuck and shut down every 15 min so it was useless. The dolphin does a great job at cleaning but the bag cleanup part is just awful.

I switched from shock to bleach this week and probably will start the full BBB method once Im more familiar with it.

The other thing that has made a huge difference is the solar blanket. I gotten a 16 mil one. Over here is still in the low 60's at night and it hasnt been a day over 72 this week. Pool Water is at a nice 80 degrees so the blanket is already saving me money :)

[PoolDoc]

This is Awesome information. I will stick to the strips for everyother day use and once a week I will take it to the pool store which is only 3 blocks away for a real test.

Most pool stores do NOT provide a 'real' test. 'Real' tests are done with liquids, using either droppers or glass lab burets. Most likely they use 'guess-strips' just like yours, but read them electronically. This takes test results that are 'terribly inaccurate', and improves them to the point of only being 'badly inaccurate'!

There are a few stores around the country that still do 'real' testing: if you are fortunate to be hooked up with one of those, I take it all back.


I switched from shock to bleach this week and probably will start the full BBB method once I'm more familiar with it.

A *fundamental* component of the BBB method is periodic accurate testing, with reliable testing in between. Strips are neither accurate nor reliable.

You'd be MUCH better off tossing the strips, and using a cheap OTO/phenol red drops kit for daily testing, and getting a K2006 for periodic testing.
http://pool9.net/oto-kit/
http://pool9.net/tk/

[gonzapa]

Not sure what kind of test it is but they inject the water into a little plastic disk and put it into a machine that comes up with the results. This weekend when I go there I will see what the label in the machine says.

I have a real difficult time distingushing between the different shades of colors in most tests.
I have asked other people to look at the same test and most of the time im one ot 2 shades appart, so for a real test It is difficult for me.

for the quick strips I have to go as far as taking a picture of the test and then going to the computer to compare what the camera sees which makes the process quite anoying.

[PoolDoc]

The test that strips -- and dealers -- most often mess up badly is the CYA test.

See if you can find an HTH 6-way: http://pool9.net/tk-hth6/

If you can, use it to do the CYA test, and compare results. The videos for the K2006 apply to the CYA test in the HTH6: http://pool9.net/tk-guide/

[gonzapa]

To overcome what i descibed above I was thinking on getting a colorimeter for at least the PH and the free clorine.
Have been looking at the hanna ones but they seem not to be the most reliable either :(

[Watermom]

The Taylor K2006 does not use color matching for the chlorine test. You add a powder to a water sample which turns it pink. Then, you add drops until it turns clear. Your reading comes from counting drops, not matching a color.

[PoolDoc]

The only color match in the Taylor kit is the pH reading. Check this page: http://pool9.net/ph-meter/ to see if you need a pH meter.

The Taylor K2006 does require you to notice a color CHANGE; these videos show you what you're looking for:
http://pool9.net/tk-guide/
http://pool9.net/tk-interfere/