Pool Equipment Revamp: In over my head

[jtsarnak]

So here's the background: I have a 40x20 equivalent inground pool in central NJ. It has a 10x10 spa attached to it that spills over. We bought this home last fall and the pool was open for a couple weeks. In that time I learned a great deal, most of which was the previous owner didn't take care of it. The heater is non-functioning, the valves all have their handles broken and are plumbed in such a way that makes the spa very laborious to turn on. The filter is DE but something is wrong with the grids because it was spewing DE into the pool.

So we want to makeover the equipment. I called the guy who had done work on it in the past. By the end of the conversation he was talking about a fully automated system install. I don't mind spending money if something is worth it, but I don't really know what's worth it.

Our previous home had a similar sized pool that we kept acceptably warm for the time we used it with a solar cover. We switched to salt-water on it and loved it. But otherwise it was very no-frills. The sand filter it had was very low maintenance and was perfectly acceptable for water cleanliness.

So here's what we're looking to do and what we were quoted:

MUST HAVES:
-Change filter over to sand because it's my preference (389 filter + 66 sand + 145 labor = $600)
-Salt System (Hayward aquarite $1499 installed, salt is $180)

OPTIONAL:
-Replace valves and replumb to make vacuuming & spa easier ($300)
-Heater for spa (Hayward H250 $1900 + $145 labor = $2045)
-Automation system: Hayward/Goldline AquaPlus with remote & actuators ($2795 Price was quoted with Salt System included, but difference amounts to $1300)

The automation would integrate the pump/filter, the heater, the salt system and electronic actuation of the valves for switching the spa on or switching ports for vacuuming all of which is handled via remotr. I've never had a spa or heater or automation system in the past. The heater would really only be used when the spa is in use as we're happy to keep things warm with a solar cover.

So I guess the first question is, am I getting ripped off on these quotes?
The second is, is this worth it or am I asking for trouble adding all of this stuff in? My wife thinks I'm crazy not to do it with her argument being what good is the spa if there's no heater and it's a pain to get bubble action going. I see that side of it but I don't want this pool to turn into a money pit with repairs down the line either.

Thanks for all the advice and opinions, I welcome it all!

[PoolDoc]

You're not getting ripped off; your guy is not working free, but his not gouging you, either. Here's your heater on Amazon:
Hayward H250FDN Universal H-Series Low Nox 250,000-BTU Natural Gas Pool Heater (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002EL411M/scouscho-20/)

That's close to average wholesale pricing in non-prime markets (ie, everywhere except S. Calif and S. Florida). As I cautioned in this post (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/23173), earlier today, you have to expect $500 markup on heaters, if your guy is going to take the warranty risk. Your prices are similar to what I'd expect in this market (Chattanooga).

Personally, I don't love automation, but many people here do. Also, I'd probably encourage you to replace the filter, if you have what I suspect: the System3 makes a great DE filter, but really lousy sand filter. And a good large filter will do more to make your pool 'easy' than automation, which I tend to think of as a "gee whiz-look at me!" whiz-bang that's very prone to trouble.

[jtsarnak]

Thanks a ton! I was wondering why his equipment so much more but I suppose it makes sense. Can you tell me what I should expect regarding warranty service from the installer on the heater and automation unit? Meaning if I was to buy it through them, how long should I expect to pay nothing for repairs/replacements? Essentially, what is that $500 difference buying me?

[PoolDoc]

Actually, the difference is between paying for labor during the warranty period, or not. If you buy it, you *will* end up paying for warranty labor, one way or another. Sometimes the maker covers a little, but what they pay or do tends to be slow . . . as in, after the pool season is over!

Dealing with equipment warranties is a PAIN. If he buys the equipment, you should expect a one year warranty, parts and labor. If you buy the equipment, you can expect to wrangle with the mfg yourself, eventually get replacement parts -- AFTER THEY VERIFY THAT YOU DIDN'T CAUSE THE PROBLEM -- and to pay for most labor done, including 100% of the labor done by your installer. After all, it's not HIS fault that YOUR equipment (if you buy it) failed.

I hope that makes sense.

[jtsarnak]

I makes sense, but its also a bit disappointing.

I basically expect the heater to work this season if it is installed this season. My concern is whether it works during next season (after a season of use and then a half year of sitting around doing nothing). If I'm not wrong, it sounds like I'd be in the same boat next season whether I buy the unit myself or he supplies it. So the $500 difference is me paying up front for a problem occurring this season which I feel has a slim chance of happening.

[PoolDoc]

Actually, with manufactured equipment generally (this is not specific to pools) the highest rate of failure is when the equipment is new; then the failure rate drops off to follow what's sometimes called a "bathtub curve", and gradually increases until the equipment approaches it's life expectancy.

If

(a) your heater works well this year, (spring and fall) AND
(b) you protect it from the weather over winter, THEN

it will probably be OK next year.

Moisture and bugs kill unused heaters. So does poor water chemistry.

[jtsarnak]

Thanks for the info!

I guess I am just scared by the reviews of the H-series on Amazon. It seems either people love it or the panels or something fails when they try to fire them up the next year. But thanks again for your wisdom, it seems as though everything is a fair price, it's just a matter of what do I want to pull the trigger on.

[PoolDoc]

When I read through those, I was left with the impression that there 3 issues:

1. The possible real problem with the electronics -- probably from getting damp.

2. People buying the heaters without paying attention to what the requirements were.

3. People making incorrect assumptions about how the heaters would work.

Only the first is really Hayward's problem. The others are a result of less than full informed consumers purchasing complex equipment without taking the time to understand it. Those problems would have existed, no matter which heater they purchased.

I probably should add: gas or propane pool heaters are, in my own local experience, the single piece of pool equipment most likely to go unused after the first season. Often they are turned off after the first large gas bill. Due to fracking, natural gas prices are down, relatively speaking, from what they have been historically. Because fracking is still growing, prices are likely to remain down. Heat pumps -- when applied correctly (= only in cool, not cold, climates!) -- offer a potentially more economical solution.

But, heating outdoor pools is EXPENSIVE. The ONLY method of heating that is not, is solar heating, and in the East, it's a very hit or miss method.

[PoolDoc]

Followup: I spent a bit of time looking for reviews of OTHER gas pool heaters on Amazon:

StaRite Max-E-Therm 400 (http://www.amazon.com/Sta-Rite-SR400NA-Max-E-Therm-Natural-400-BTU/product-reviews/B002G9U1A2/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1)
Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm Black 400 (http://www.amazon.com/Sta-Rite-SR400HD-Max-E-Therm-Heater-400-BTU/product-reviews/B002G9U18E/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1)
Pentair Minimax 100 (http://www.amazon.com/Pentair-460387-Minimax-Electronic-Performance/product-reviews/B004VT51RS/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1)
Pentair Minimax 100 Millivolt (http://www.amazon.com/Pentair-460352-MiniMax-Milivolt-Performance/product-reviews/B004VT524K/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1)
Pentair MasterTemp 250 (http://www.amazon.com/Pentair-460733-MasterTemp-Performance-Eco-Friendly/product-reviews/B004VU87VO/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1)
Zodiac Legacy 399 (http://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-LRZ400EN-Electronic-Digital-Control/product-reviews/B008E6AX5Y/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1)

Most others hadn't been reviewed. I didn't read most of these reviews, but I still saw several where it was obvious to me that the purchaser made the error.

[jtsarnak]

I probably should add: gas or propane pool heaters are, in my own local experience, the single piece of pool equipment most likely to go unused after the first season. Often they are turned off after the first large gas bill. Due to fracking, natural gas prices are down, relatively speaking, from what they have been historically. Because fracking is still growing, prices are likely to remain down. Heat pumps -- when applied correctly (= only in cool, not cold, climates!) -- offer a potentially more economical solution.

But, heating outdoor pools is EXPENSIVE. The ONLY method of heating that is not, is solar heating, and in the East, it's a very hit or miss method.

The plan is really to only use it for the purpose of heating the attached spa that spills over when we have guests come by and people want to relax in the bubbly. We do not plan to use the heater to ever heat the pool itself so I think it will be fairly inexpensive to run for that purpose. We would be using the gas model as well, so that will help some over propane.

What is a heat pump and how does it differ?

[PoolDoc]

A pool heat pump works just like a house heat pump, except it heats water instead of air.

It would not be a good choice for a spa, since even heat pumps have a fraction of the heat output of a gas heater, and don't work well once temperatures go below 45 degrees.

As you say, heating a spa occasionally will be not nearly as expensive as keeping a pool warm.

[CarlD]

From what we've seen here, heat pumps are GREAT for heating pools in the spring and summer, being very efficient when the air temp is in the 50's or higher, especially in the 70's and up. But for spas in colder weather? Ben's certainly right. My neighbors with Natural Gas heaters don't use them much unless they are having a pool party because their gas bill goes through the roof!

Solar works well here in the NE, but is inconsistent. 4 or 5 rainy days and your pool temp will drop back into the 70's. A solar cover will help slow that down and hold the heat in at night. But it's a trade-off. I've been running solar panel heating in NJ for 13 seasons now, first with my little 15' Intex donut and now with my FantaSea. Personally, I've been very happy with it. We find we don't use the pool that much in May or September except on hot days.