Newbie with a 21' AG pool, wondering about copper

[The Frant]

Well here comes another pool newbie who will probably have plenty of questions. I know that I will need some knowledge to free myself from the pool company cartel.

So last summer my wife surprised me with a a 21ft round above ground pool with a canister filter. (Surprise!) She also said that her and the kids will take of it and I won't have to do anything but enjoy it. Unfortunately that didn't happen. It was green most of the time. So this year I'm taking over and re-starting the pool.

Over the week end we drained and cleaned the pool. That was disgusting! At the bottom there was about 2-3 inches of the most foul smelling green slime but it was more like pudding. But it is now clean and about filled with hose water.

So before I made the trip to the pool store to have them empty my wallet, my wife's sister told her that all she does to the pool is chlorine and root killer (copper sulfate i believe). So before I did anything I was not sure about, I did what any sane person would do, searched the internet. And I've wound up here.

Now I'm reading lots of posts and trying to figure out how to care for my pool.

[PoolDoc]

Copper sulfate root killer *IS* an effective algaecide; it is NOT a sanitizer. But if you maintain high levels of copper (2 ppm CuSO4 or 0.5 ppm Cu), you will prevent almost all algae. You will ALSO stain concrete pools and turn light colored hair greenish. You know your pool and your swimmers: if that's a problem for you, don't use it.

If you use copper, you have to keep the pH lowish -- 7.0 - 7.4 and NEVER shock. Shocking high copper pools can precipitate black copper oxide, instead of greenish blue copper carbonate or copper chloride, and will stain even vinyl pools.

It's possible though. Maintain low pH, low chlorine, and low stabilizer (7.0 - 7.4; 0.5 - 2 ppm, 20 - 40 ppm). We don't recommend it. It's almost as cheap to follow the BBB method (chlorine + stabilizer + borax) and not nearly so 'twitchy'.

Either way, you need accurate testing. People do operate like your sister-in-law without it, and a portion of them get lucky and avoid problems. But the only way to avoid problems, without depending on random luck is to test accurately and manage your chemistry. It's not that hard, but there is a learning curve. We can help with that, if you're willing.

Check out the test kit page, linked in my signature. You'll need a K2006 (A or C model) and also a copper kit, if you want to run copper.

Good luck!

[PoolDoc]

PS: Post your filter model, so we can point you to a correct replacement cartridge. If you clean them properly, you need 2 -- one in the filter and one in the tank. See http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/18044

Make SURE you do not get an Asian made filter. And, if your pool is an Asian made soft-side pool, you'll need 2 cartridges -- it will make life much easier for you.

[The Frant]

I am going to be using the BBB method. Not that I don't trust my sister-in-law, but I had read too many possible negative things about using copper, so i'll skip it. I like using methods that others have been proven to work for most people.
Right now I have the HTH 6 test kit but will be ordering my test kit later today. I did my tests last night, but I forgot to bring in the paper where I wrote my results. But if I remember correctly, PH was high at 8, TC was almost 0, TA was 140 and I don't remember the rest. I treated the pool for chlorine and PH last according to the pool calculator, bleach and muriatic acid. I think I read that I should worry about getting the chlorine and PH in line first then deal with the others. I did stock up on all my grocery store chemicals, bleach, borax, baking soda, muriatic acid. That way I'm ready for anything.

When I get home I'll find the model of the filter so that I can have a clean filter ready to swap. I'm an IT guy so I like having swappable parts.

I did have one last thing I wanted to ask about before I did it. I have an old aluminum truck box in the back yard and was thinking about storing my chemicals in it. It has been there for a while and has never had any water in it. But it is in the sun. Is it OK to store my stuff in it?

[Watermom]

Sounds like you are learning how to take care of your pool the BBB way! Good decision to order the good kit. That will make things easier for you. As far as storing your chemicals ---- you want to store them in a cool dry place so the truck box in the sun is not a good choice.

Hope you enjoy being a part of our forum!

[BigDave]

I'd like to add that storing Muriatic Acid in the aluminum box may be a pretty poor choice as the HCL fumes are corrosive. Take a look at Using Muriatic Acid to Safely Lower Your Pool's pH (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/13111-Using-Muriatic-Acid-to-Safely-Lower-Your-Pool-s-pH). It has good advice for handling and storing MA. I put the bottle in a bag and close it, put the bag in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid that seals and then I put the bucket in a 20 gallon garbage can with a lid that shuts tight.

[The Frant]

BigDave, I will take your advice about storing my chemicals. The only indoor place I have store it would be in my garage, but my son's room is right above it. I've always been careful about what work I do in the garage, cleaning products, paint, stains, etc. I do have a 20x20 wooden shed with 16 ft roof. It one of those barn type sheds with the asphalt shingle roof. It does get rather warm in there. Would that be better or am I being too cautious?
He's my oldest but i've got two others just like him. :)

Also while cleaning out the pool, i noticed that I have small white grit on the sides of the pool. I have not had a chance to pick some off and vinegar test it. I'm adding that to my list of problems to resolve.

[PoolDoc]

Use a plastic 'lawn box', with a light colored lid. Something like this would be ideal:
Rubbermaid 5F21-00-OLVSS Deck Storage Box (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CFOW3O/scouscho-20/)

[The Frant]

Ok I have the information about my filter. Its from Waterways and labeled "Millenium Ultimate Filtration" and has a sticker with FC125 on it. The pump is a Model SD-20-2N11CD and has a part number of PM2200-6P.

[PoolDoc]

Looks like it's a WaterWay Clearwater II FC125 filter -- check their catalog, and verify that, before you purchase the cartridge below:
http://www.waterwayplastics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/150-8120.0510_web.pdf

The Unicel cartridge guide IDs the correct replacement as a either Unicel C8412 or an C8413 (pg 59). You'll have to measure the cartridge: the C8412 is 23 5/16 inches; the C8413 is 28 3/16 inches. The Filbur FC-1293 (23 5/16") or FC-2575 (28 3/16") are options as well.

23 5/16" long
Unicel C-8412 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0039QC0T6/scouscho-20/)
FIlbur FC-1293 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045LU25S/scouscho-20/)


28 3/16" long
Unicel C-8413 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014RNQ04/scouscho-20/)
Filbur FC-2575 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004W4TSHQ/scouscho-20/)


Be very careful if you purchase without using the links below; Asian made cartridges are sold deceptively online, at Amazon and elsewhere, with descriptions like "replaces Unicel C8412"! If you want further info, here are the links to the Unicel and Filbur cartridge guides:
http://www.filburmfg.com/uploads/resources/FILBUR%20Catalog.pdf
http://www.unicelfilters.com/pdf/replacement_guide.pdf

[The Frant]

That looks exactly like my filter. And it's the 28" one too. Is there a difference between those two filters?

And I've not been able to find plain liquid CYA. I've found a granular one, but the guy at the store says that it will just clog up my filter before it actually dissolves (2-3 Days). So he steered me to a liquid "CYA" that turns out to be monosodium cyanurate monohydrate. I'm assumed that the guy was full of it and left. So, are the granules OK? should I dissolve them in water first then add? My searches here did not find anything positive about monosodium cyanurate monohydrate, so i might be skipping liquid and going granular.

My test kit should be here soon, so I can get some more accurate numbers.

And thanks for all the help.

[PoolDoc]

CYA *will* sit on your filter for a few days, but it won't clog it.

Liquid CYA is based on the sodium salt of cyanuric acid you mentioned. A cheaper and easier way to add CYA is simply to chlorinate with dichlor granules for the first few weeks. For each ppm of chlorine you add that way, you also add almost a ppm of CYA! As long as you NEED cyanuric acid, this is a very good deal, both in terms of price and convenience.

If you have access to a Sams Club, their PoolBrand undiluted dichlor (50# bucket; 24# box) is usually the best deal going. But I'll post links to Amazon, in case you can't use Sams Club. Most other stores -- Costco, Walmart, Kmart, etc -- sell diluted dichlor.

To use dichlor, just add doses to the skimmer, with the pump running. With 13K gallons, a reasonable dose would be 1 pound (about 2 cups) in the skimmer each evening. Each dose will add about 5 ppm chlorine and 4 ppm of stabilizer. Once you have added (5) doses, you'll have enough CYA in the pool to have an effect.

Have you ordered a K2006 test kit, yet? Regardless, get a cheap OTO/phenol red kit, and adjust your dose the following evening, based on pH and chlorine levels.

Regarding your filter, apparently Water Way made two models of that filter, and you have to match replacements by length.

Here are the Amazon dichlor links:


PoolBrand granular dichlor 50lbs (http://www.samsclub.com/prod4340004.ip) @ Sams Club => ~$2.20/lb (May 2014 in Chattanooga)
PoolBrand dichlor bagged shock 24lbs (http://www.samsclub.com/108822.ip) @ Sams Club => ~$2.50/lb (May 2014 in Chattanooga)

Kem-Tek dichlor 22 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZA/scouscho-20) @ Amazon => ~$3.50/lb (May 2014)
Kem-Tek dichlor 12 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZ0/scouscho-20) @ Amazon => ~$4.10/lb (May 2014)
Kem-Tek dichlor 5 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0015UIOWK/scouscho-20) @ Amazon => ~$5.00/lb (May 2014)
Kem-Tek dichlor 2 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI40/scouscho-20) @ Amazon => ~$9.00/lb (May 2014)

Keep in mind that Amazon products normally ship free; and that in many parts of the country, you will not have to pay sales tax. Shipping + tax can increase the cost from other suppliers by 15 - 40%, so compare delivered cost, not nominal price.

KemTek brand products may also be available at local Home Depots; match pictures here to what you see at Home Depot, before you buy. Otherwise you may end up with diluted dichlor there, too.

[Watermom]

If you don't want to use the dichlor, it is perfectly fine to use the granular CYA. I have done so for many years without a problem. You can slowly pour it into the skimmer while the pump is running and then just leave your pump running for the first 4 or 5 days after adding it while it is dissolving. Don't retest your CYA level for about a week after you add it to make sure it is fully dissolved and in the water to be able to be detected or else you are just wasting your reagent.

[The Frant]

Ok I picked up a box of PoolBrand dichlor bagged shock from Sam's today. When I got home about 1:00, I tested and the test said 0 CC. So I added one bag and waited a few hours. Then I got a surprise around 5. My K2006C test kit arrived. So I can now post my numbers.

So here are my numbers from the new test kit. If I did everything correctly
FC=.66
CC=0
PH=7.8
TA=120
CYA=0

[PoolDoc]

OK, need a little more chlorine.

Don't overtest CYA -- you'll run out of reagent.

[Watermom]

How can the chlorine reading be 0.66?? Maybe meant 6.6 instead?

[The Frant]

I thought something didn't seem right with my chlorine levels. So I checked again and my math was off. I multiplied by .02 instead of .2.

So my FC is 6.6, but my CC is still 0.

[Watermom]

CC of 0 is good. That is what you want! :)

[The Frant]

I tested my water today and my FC was 4, CC was 0 and CA was 40. I picked up a box of the 1lb dichlor bags from Sam's. I have been using that for the last couple of days.
How fast does CA usually drop? Should I continue to use the dichlor or do CA levels stay good for a while?

[BigDave]

CYA is lost from backwash, splashout, and sometimes bacteria will consume it if chlorine is depleted. Once you get it where you want it, it should pretty much stay.