First time poster - excited to use BBB method but have a question!

[rdbrya1]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting on this forum. I am excited to continue to read through all the old post and learn new things. I have a 16x32 vinyl liner cholorine pool that we put in about 3 years ago. Up until now I've just been bringing samples to the pool store and doing whatever they tell me to do (with all Biogaurd products).

I have read a lot on the BBB method but I am still confused on one part as I have read contradicting things. By using the bleach/borax/baking soda to control the different levels.....do I still use chlorine tablets in my automatic chorinator as well? I read one thing that said yes, you will still continue to buy the 50 lbs buckets of chlorine tablets and use those in addition to BBB. Then I read something else saying that using the gallon of bleach every other day replaces the cholorine tablets. Could someone please clarify that?

A few weeks ago I took a sample to the pool store and my Alkalinity was 0...of course PH was below 6.2, no telling how low since that is as low as it will read. So naturally they gave me the Biogaurd equivalent to increase Alkalinity first ( I really wanted to simply try baking soda or soda ash after reading these forums but I had already purchased the other stuff so I figured I may as well use it). I used that and as of today my Alkalinity is 130 (sheet says my pool should be between 125-150. The PH was up to 7.5. I have a 6 way test kit that I got from Walmart to determine this. I will get the Taylor kit when this one runs out but since I already have this one it seems to work fine.

My FC was at 2 and CC was at 2.2 today as well. CYA was 70.

So everything seems balanced just fine at this point. My water is crystal clear. So from here, I am going to attempt the BBB method. My plan was to keep the 3" cholorine tablets in the feeder (I run my pump about 8 hours a day in the summer). And then in addition to that I will add baking soda when Alkalinity test low and Borax if PH test off as well. But other than those things, why would I need bleach if I am using the chlorine tablets?

Hope this makes sense and I hope I didn't ramble too much! Just want to make sure I am doing this right as I am just starting out :-) I look forward to posting more on this forum!

[CarlD]

Hi:
Chlorine is chlorine whether you use bleach or the tablets. But only Bleach/LC doesn't anything else or unbalance the pH of the water.

However, if the tablets are Tri-chlor (the most common 3" tablets) then they add two more ingredients: CYA/Stabilizer, and Acid (as in pH lowering). For every 10ppm of FC they add, I believe they add 6ppm of CYA.

Since your CYA is already at 70, you probably do NOT want it any higher. And, since you just fought to get your pH back to 7.5 from 6.2 (!) you really do NOT want to be adding acid either!

Further, check your tablet bucket. If it has any other ingredient, or says "Double Acting!" it probably is adding copper as an algae inhibitor. We do NOT recommend that because copper creates too many problems.

Since you have a vinyl pool, you're main worry about alkalinity is that it doesn't go over 200ppm (I prefer a limit of 180ppm). HOWEVER, if you find your pH keeps rising and you have to keep adding acid to bring it down, you'll need to lower TA, to something like 80.

The fancy Bioguard equivalent is merely Soda Ash, aka Sodium Carbonate, aka Washing Soda. Since Washing Soda was about $$1.04/lb last time I checked (last week) consider the pricing.

Note Tuesday evening: Wow! I must have been half-asleep when I wrote the above. I've edited some of the worst errors in grammar and spelling out...Sorry!

[PoolDoc]

. . . membership upgraded!

Did you get your questions answered?

Also, if you've been going to a Bioguard store, you've been victimized by one of the most effective pool chemical marketing programs I've ever seen. The ONLY way I know to get free of them, is to test your own water -- if you don't, you'll just end up getting caught again. Their program really, REALLY works! (to sell chemicals!)

Get a K2006 kit from Amazon (link to test kit page below) and let us teach you how. You'll still go to the store occasionally, but when you do, you'll be telling them what you want to buy, rather than buying what they want to sell!

[rdbrya1]

Thanks everyone!! This is making a lot more sense!! Sorry for the late reply, I had been checking to see if my first post was approved so I must have missed it when it was :)

And crap about the chlorine tablets adding all the other stuff argh! I JUST purchased a 50lbs tub of tablets. I am going to go look at the ingredients now. Of course I am kicking myself because I spent extra $$ to get the "super skimmer tablets" that supposedly did all kind of extra stuff (I only did this before even knowing of the BBB method or knowing there was any other alternative other than regular pool store chemicals).

It says:
72% available stabilized chlorine.
79.2% Trichlor-S-Triazinetrine, each tab weighs 7oz.

I def do NOT want to add copper to my pool!!!! It says prevents algae but doesn't mention anything about copper.

It is these:
http://www.intheswim.com/Pool-Chemicals/Pool-Chlorine-and-Bromine/Triple-Action-Chlorine-Super-Skimmer-Tabs/

Do they make a chlorine tablet that just simply adds chlorine?

Thanks again everyone!

[rdbrya1]

Just me again! Just wanted to add that the reason I like the tablets as opposed to adding the bleach everyday is simply because of our work schedules, we go out of town for 2-4 days at a time very frequently. I do not want to have to bother neighbors or family to come add bleach to the pool if we are gone for 3 days. So I was hoping to be able to use the tablets and then still continue test with my test kit every day that I am home and check the levels and add baking soda/borax/washing soda/acid as needed. I am hoping this is feasible to do, but I could be wrong and maybe the BBB method just will not work in my case. But if it will work, that way I am still not buying the unnecessary and not to mention $$ pool store chemicals but am able to keep my pool balanced on my own.

[BigDave]

Can you return the "Super Tabs"? Generally , you'll find no love for combo action product around here. This product is worse than many because they don't tell you what is in it. 79.2% Trichlor, 20.8% Secret Sauce. As CarlD points out, your pool already has pretty high CYA and Low pH has been a problem. It's probably best to avoid stabilized chlorine altogether.

Sorry, I know of no tabs that don't add stabilizer. Most of use bleach or liquid chlorine (same thing, LC may be stronger) which adds only chlorine and a little(not enought to ever worry about) salt. Another popular option is Calcium Hypochlorite which adds chlorine and calcium.

The most important thig to do to set yourself free of the chemical store is to order a Taylor K-2006 (or K-2006C). If you order through the link in PoolDoc's sig (above) the form gets some coin to keep the lights on. Next this is to read all you can here and at pool solutions.com. The BBB and Best Guess links in PoolDoc's Sig are great for starting.

Good luck, we're here to help.

[BigDave]

Just read your follow up post, Maybe bleach when you are home tabs when away? Maybe add enough bleach to get you through your expected absence? Or even stay on tabs. What ever you do, do make sure to keep your Free Chlorine above the minimum on the Best Guess chart for your CYA and your pool will stay clean.

[PoolDoc]

Do they make a chlorine tablet that just simply adds chlorine?

Sams Club sells "PoolBrand" tablets that are undiluted trichlor. These Kem-Tek tablets are 95% trichlor, which is better than most:
Kem-Tek 3-Inch Chlorinating Chlorine Tablets for Pool and Spa (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHYQ/scouscho-20)

Kem-Tek's MSDS (http://www.kem-tek.com/assets/Kem_Tek_Swimming_Pool_3_Chlor._Tablets_MSDS1.pdf) doesn't list the 'other' ingredients, but I just talked to one of their techs, and she told me it's boric acid, which is fine. She also told me that they are now producing Kem-Tek Power 99 which is undiluted, and will be available on Amazon later this season.

[rdbrya1]

Thanks to all of you for the help!! I will most definitely order my test kit from the link in the signature to support this board.

Hopefully this doesn't sound dumb but I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly - that the Sam's Brand tablets that are 99% active ingredient undiluted trichlor...does that mean they do not add any stabilizer?

I have been keeping my FC around 2-3 and have not had any problems but based on the best guess chart it says I should keep it at 5. I am wondering should I increase it or leave it alone.

Unfortunately I cannot return the 50Lbs super skimmer tablets so I will have to decide if its worth losing the money or not and tossing them or trying to use them :-(

[PoolDoc]

1. Trichlor is, molecularly, a stabilizer molecule with 3 attached chlorine atoms. So, 100% trichlor does add stabilizer.

2. You can probably get away with lower chlorine levels in cool weather, but once water temps hit 70 degrees, you need to match your chlorine to your CYA level.

3. I found label info here: http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData%5CSC%5Cpesticide%5CProduct%20Label%5C514 32%5C5185-481-51432%5C5185-481-51432_IN_THE_SWIM_SUPER_SKIMMER_TABS_3_31_2010_11_ 26_02_AM.pdf

Your tabs are 80% trichlor, 10% borax, and 10% aluminum sulfate. The borax is fine -- it will keep the pH from dropping so much. The aluminum sulfate (alum) is OK . . . IF you have a sand filter. If you have a cartridge filter, you will need to clean more often. If you have a DE filter, you may also need to clean more, but I don't think the alum will hurt the filter.

This formulation does NOT contain copper, which is what stains pools.

[PoolDoc]

PS. Do NOT 'toss' trichor tablets. Doing so would be a serious environmental violation, if you were caught. And given that trichlor might explode or catch fire if mixed with certain types of garbage, there's a good chance that "tossing" a 50# bucket would get caught!

[PoolDoc]

Oops. I must have accidentally closed this thread -- it's open now.

[rdbrya1]

haha thanks!! I tried to reply a few times but it was closed :-( I couldn't find a way to PM you either to say thanks! The answers were SOO helpful and I really appreciate it!! It is creeping up to 70 degrees here in Louisiana so my cholorine levels will stay a little higher soon. I just clicked to order my Taylor 2006 test kit and it says "Sold by Amato Industries, Inc. "...that is the correct store right? I want to make sure Pool Forum gets the credit.

[PoolDoc]

Yes.

Amato has been the most consistent seller on Amazon, and tends to be have more consistent stock. (Their store is not far from Taylor.) There've been a few problems with Amato, but I believe they've all been straightened out eventually.

Amazon started selling the K2006C directly last year, but not the K2006A, which is what you've ordered.

[CarlD]

1. T
Your tabs are 80% trichlor, 10% borax, and 10% aluminum sulfate. The borax is fine -- it will keep the pH from dropping so much. The aluminum sulfate (alum) is OK . . . IF you have a sand filter. If you have a cartridge filter, you will need to clean more often. If you have a DE filter, you may also need to clean more, but I don't think the alum will hurt the filter.

This formulation does NOT contain copper, which is what stains pools.

I am guessing they are cutting the tri-chlor with cheaper ingredients that are not as destructive as others. Since tri-chlor tends to be very acidic, the borax would offset that, and, as Ben says, borates can inhibit algae. I don't know much about aluminum sulfate, but I am guessing it is a pH raiser as well.

[PoolDoc]

Carl, aluminum sulfate is an old-line floc and filter aid. It used to be fairly standard on commercial pools to feed small amounts of aluminum sulfate upstream of sand filters. It has the fairly unique quality of being able -- under certain conditions -- to tie up or capture metal ions. But I've never been able to find out exactly what those conditions were.

[CarlD]

Ah! I bow to your superior knowledge!
I'd still bet it helps reduce the production cost of those tri-chlor tabs...but, then again, I do have a cynical streak! :)

[PoolDoc]

I wasn't trying to say alum wasn't cheaper -- I'm almost certain it is, and that you are correct about their motives for adding it. I was just explaining what it does, and why it's a comparatively benign additive.

[chem geek]

A decent online source is poolgeek.com and they sell the following (prices are for 25 pound size) GLB 3" Trichlor tabs (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/glb-large-3-inch-tablets-25-lb) at a decent price ($91.14) and these are 99% pure Trichlor. You'll save even more if you can find these tabs in a local pool store since shipping is extra ($9.99 for 25 pounds). Other brands at 99% include Omni (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/omni-stabilized-chlorinating-tablets-giant-3-inc-size-25-lb) ($102.25), Robarb (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/robarb-3-inch-tablets-25-lb) ($86.57 that appears to be the cheapest), ProTeam (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/proteam-3-inch-pure-tabs-25-lb) ($117.08).

[CarlD]

I wasn't trying to say alum wasn't cheaper -- I'm almost certain it is, and that you are correct about their motives for adding it. I was just explaining what it does, and why it's a comparatively benign additive.

I was just exploring the rationale for combining Borax and the alum with Tri-chlor. I also don't know much about it chemically.

[rdbrya1]

Sounds like I got ripped off royally LOL :-)
Around $99 for most 50lbs buckets of 99% Trichlor tabs and I paid $249 (!!!!!) for this bucket of "super" tabs that probably cost them less to make...ouch! This forum has helped me tremendously and I only found it a week ago. At least I feel safe using these tabs up until they are gone now that ya'll have explained the makeup of them so well. I wish I had found ya'll sooner!

[CarlD]

Sorry! I hope it helps to know they won't CONTINUE to rip you off. I find I can easily get through the summer on less than $100 of Liquid Chlorine (12.5%) at $18/5 gallon carboy.

[chem geek]

I was just exploring the rationale for combining Borax and the alum with Tri-chlor. I also don't know much about it chemically.
Let's look at the possible rationale and then blow holes in it, just for fun.

The rationale is to try and keep the pool clear since continued use of Trichlor builds up CYA lowering chlorine effectiveness so algae can start to grow faster than chlorine can kill it. When this happens, the water may not show visible green algae but instead look dull or cloudy. You already mentioned how Borax can help balance the acidity of the Trichlor and building up borates can help prevent algae. The aluminum helps to clarify the water so initial algae gets swept to the filter so if you backwash you get rid of it but if you don't clean the filter then it sits there using up chlorine and possibly continuing to grow.

However, with 80% Trichlor and 10% Borax and 10% aluminum sulfate, for every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor the relatively small amount of Borax (I assume it's sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, not decahydrate) barely touches the pH and adds 0.2 ppm borates so at 2 ppm FC per day that's only an increase of 1.2 ppm Borates per month. So your assumption about it being more about "filler" may be accurate though there are less expensive fillers than borax. The minimum aluminum sulfate concentration for coagulation (as in DIN 19643-2) is 0.05 g/m^3 expressed as aluminum so for the example I gave there was 51.7 grams aluminum sulfate (4.08 grams aluminum equivalent) in 10,000 gallons or 37.85 cubic meters so this is 0.11 g/m^3. So while the addition of borates is of questionable value, the use of aluminum sulfate does appear to be in the ballpark at least after 10 ppm FC equivalent of chlorine is added (the alum gets caught in the filter so must be replenished).

[JimK]

A decent online source is poolgeek.com and they sell the following (prices are for 25 pound size) GLB 3" Trichlor tabs (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/glb-large-3-inch-tablets-25-lb) at a decent price ($91.14) and these are 99% pure Trichlor. You'll save even more if you can find these tabs in a local pool store since shipping is extra ($9.99 for 25 pounds). Other brands at 99% include Omni (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/omni-stabilized-chlorinating-tablets-giant-3-inc-size-25-lb) ($102.25), Robarb (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/robarb-3-inch-tablets-25-lb) ($86.57 that appears to be the cheapest), ProTeam (http://www.poolgeek.com/products/proteam-3-inch-pure-tabs-25-lb) ($117.08).

I've ordered from PoolGeek many times and have been happy with them. They use to have the lowest prices on the things I ordered, but I've noticed the past couple seasons the prices have gone up.....still cheaper than local prices though.

[CarlD]

Of course the kicker, Richard, is that rdbrya1 got horribly ripped off on this concoction, paying around $250 for $90 worth of tri-chlor. Now that won't happen again!