Desperate for answers on Mustard Algae

[CUTURHAIR]

Hi,

I haven't gotten or found the answers I need to the mustard algae problem I am having. Problem is, I am leaving for vacation next week, and need to do something immediately. This is an 11,200 gallon, vinyl, inground pool, run with only grocery store chemicals, as Ben's methods instruct.

I ran shock levels faithfully, continuously for over 2 weeks, to no avail. I added bleach 2-3 times a day as needed during that time.

I had to go to get a new step for my step ladder at Leslies yesterday, and they said the only way I will get rid of it is to use Yellow Out, followed by PhosFree, to remove the phosphates.

I don't know what else to do at this point as shocking has not done a thing to help the situation.

So, will I be crazy to follow Leslie's advice on this treatment, and will it cause major problems in the future with my pool chemistry? I need to do this tomorrow, Monday, since I am off.

PLEASE, somebody give me any advice so I don't mess anything up. My pool water only has grocery store stuff in it, since the new liner was installed 2 seasons ago, and I hate to add pool store chemicals, but I am desperate, and don't want to keep battling the mess, and fear what I will come home to after a week away next week. My neighbor will continue my regular maintenance on the pool while I am gone.

Thanks, if you guys can help me!

John

[duraleigh]

Hi, John,

What are your test results this morning?

[tundraSQ]

Check my mustard thread...I used sodium bromide and kept the FC above 12 and had good luck. Before treating, I kept the FC above 10 for about a week, then added 4oz per 10gallons and added 1 galon bleach per 10k to kick the stuff into action. Then kept hitting the pool with clorox for 4 or 5 days to keep the levels above 12ppm...which BTW was alot more clorox than i thought it would be because the SB eats clorox like crazy. I seem to have kicked...no algae in sight for the 3rd morning....

[CUTURHAIR]

Here are my numbers this morning:

I haven't been keeping the shock levels this past week, as closely as I did for at least 2 weeks straight, with no results.

FC 5.5
CC 0
TC 5.5

PH 7.9 (My PH always runs high, even after muriatic acid, it always climbs closer to 8 or stays around 8 before I know it, which I believe Ben said a few years ago, was ok, just to let it ride out around 8 in my situation??)

Alk 90

CYA Still trying to get that up slowly. More than zero, but less than 30?? The test water is now cloudy, and the dot is less visible by far, but I can still see it when the tube is full, so I know my CYA is climbing, just not where I need it yet. Need to add more today. But may wait if necessary to procede further.

So, if sodium bromide is the way for me to go, here are my questions on that:

1) Should I just get the water back up to shock levels for another 2 weeks, since I will be gone all next week. I would rather be the one to do all the chemical additions if it is other than just the bleach.

2) If I start the sodium bromide tomorrow, how much do I use for 11,200 gallon, IG, vinyl pool, and how do I know when to add more? I know it said to shock immediately after adding the bromide to kick it in. Do I just keep the FC at shock levels for the next few days? Sounds like it will take TONS of bleach!

3) Should I just go with the Yellow Out, and then the Phos Free?

4) If I go with the sodium bromide, where do you get that? What is the best way to add it to the pool, I need to re read that thread and may find some of these answers there.

Let me know what y'all would do if you knew you only had this week to really focus on this, and only had a neighbor to add bleach while I am gone for the following week.

Thanks a lot!

Confused and mind boggled on this mustard algae!

John

[haze_1956]

Did you try using the Polyquat as was suggested on one of your other threads?

[tundraSQ]

I would wait for others that are MUCH more qualified than me to advise you on a path...BUT if it were me I would add the sodium bromide 4 days before you are going to be gone...and before that(starting now) i would raise the FC level to 15ppm and keep ith there while brushing the pool and vacuuming it every day. The SB is available in most pool stores and is not expenisive. They suggest 4oz per 10k gallons...but if you have a nasty problem then they suggest 8oz per. It comes in 1lb bottles and is granular..I added mine into the return stream..I would not pour it into the skimmer. So you put in your 80z and then add a gallon or more of bleach...and after an hour or so check your FC levels and add bleach if needed...and then brush and vacuum more. After that its just a matter of monitoring your FC levels...keep hem high and expect them to drop ALOT...after 4 days and while you are gone you just keep the levels up until no more algae. I found it to be gone after 4 days...but i kept my levels up after that...

cliff notes version...since you are going to be shocking anyway and keeping the levels up...adding the sodium brode won't hurt...and it may solve the problem....clorine alone will not kill mustard algae.

[duraleigh]

Hi, John,

Thanks for posting the numbers.......very helpful.

Reading between the lines, I sense you have lost faith in chlorine's ability to solve your issue. That's fine and I understand. I would make two points:

1. You need to manage your parameters more closely. I would not run my pH nearly as high as you do. 7.2 -7.6 seems best and many feel Cl is more effective in the lower ranges.

You do not have nearly enough CYA in there to maintain shock levels unless you are adding Cl every hour or so.

2. If you clear your issue with something other than Cl, what do you intend to change to keep it from recurring? It seems to me that your problem will simply return unless you get a handle on what is causing it in the first place.

[CUTURHAIR]

Thanks for all your help everyone! I hope to get through this at some point! I just wish I didn't have to leave town next week.

I would much prefer to just deal with it via chlorine. I know I need more CYA, but am doing it slowly as I am not sure at this point how much I have, and how much more I need to add to get into the 40ppm range. So, I keep adding by the half pound. I "believe" I have added 2 pounds so far.

So, say I stay the chlorine route for now, until I get back from vacation, and try to up my CYA more, and lower my PH, and keep shocking close to 15ppm as possible? Does that sound legit?

If so, what do I do first, add more CYA, any guess how much, being it has clouded my test water, so I know there is some there, just not up to the 30 mark yet.

Or, add muriatic acid to drop PH first? Can I do these two things by doing one today, and the other tomorrow?

I am using my PoolBuster Max CG vacuum, and not using my pool vacuum at all, so I don't have to worry about backwashing out my stabilizer, since there will be no need to backwash.

I haven't used the muriatic acid in at least a season or two. Can y'all tell me how much I need to add to drop from 7.9 to the preferred range in 11,200 gal vinyl pool? I think I just pour it from the measuring cup into the deep end?

Then, if I recall, that can/will alter Alkalinity?? How soon can I address that issue?

If y'all can give me the best order I should add these chemicals, and how long I need to wait in between, that would be great!

Thanks for your patience. And Dave, you are right! I have gotten slack on my numbers since last season, and hence, PROBLEMS.....

John

[duraleigh]

Hi, John,

It sounds like you don't have the bleachcalc....download it from any of mwsmith2's posts.....it'll calc Chlorine, pH, CYA and make it easy for you to put in accurate doses.

Next, I would bring down the pH. use the bleachcalc and aim for 7.4...you'll get pretty close if you measure accurately. pour it in front of the return jet...don't put it in the skimmer. (everything else can go in the skimmer)

Simultaneously with pH, I would add enough CYA to get to 30-40 range. The container will tell you how much to add.

If you get those in this afternoon, I suggest you bring Cl up to around 15 or so at dusk....it'll be most effective in the dark. If you can, test again before you go to bed and bring it right back up to 15. Tomorrow morning same thing. Repeat this daily (if you can test and add during the day as well, that's even better) until your Cl loses less than 2ppm overnight.

Adding polyquat to this regimen will hurt nothing and may very well be what you need to finish the job. Without the above steps, I'm not sure you'll have much luck.

I have no experience whatsoever with Sodium Bromide so I cannot comment.

I hear your frustration, John, but my money is on you ending up the winner....not mustard algae.:) :)

[CUTURHAIR]

Dave, thanks for all the help so far! I tried to download the bleach calculator, but it is not able to take me to the link. Any ideas what is going on with that? I am clicking on the link beside MWSmith's siggy.

Thanks,
John

[Sherra]

He's apparently changed the link trying to make it shorter...here's the original link and I just tried it so it should work. Save the file to your desktop so it's readily available...it's a VERY small file.
http://www.hal-pc.org/~mwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe (http://www.hal-pc.org/%7Emwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe)

[CUTURHAIR]

Thanks Sherra, but the link didn't work! It isn't meant for me to get this calculator today!!

John

[CUTURHAIR]

OK, here is where I am today. I added 2 cups of muriatic acid yesterday. PH started at 8.0 and was at 7.5 after a while. TA dropped to 80 from 90. I also added another 3/4 pound of stabilizer, so I will have to give that a while before testing. I added four 96 ounce jugs of 6% bleach last night to shock, which actually took FC to 16.5 ppm. I checked again this morning and FC was 16, so I only lost .5 ppm overnight, which is a first. Do you think that is partially due to dropping the PH, making the bleach more effective? However, my TA was up to 100ppm this morning. So it started at 90 yesterday BEFORE the mur. acid and dropped to 80 yesterday after the acid and was 100 this morning. The PH had also drifted a bit more as well, and was around 7.3 this morning. I believe PH readings are not that accurate with shock levels??

Also, there was much less algae in the pool this morning than normal. I vacuumed yesterday morning, and brushed the pool down in the evening. I rebrushed the entire pool again this morning and will check chlorine levels again in a few more hours.

I feel like my CYA is soon to be near the 30+ mark. I know it is >0, but ,<30, as I can see the water is cloudier than plain pool water when it is in the tester, so I think that will be in line soon.

Dave, you recommend adding Polyquat, so can you tell me how much I should add for 11,200 gallon vinyl pool? And, do I need to continually add polyquat after this initial dose for maintenance sake, or just one time? I really want to take all measures to get this under control before I leave on Saturday for the week. My friend will be able to vac. and brush and add bleach, but I really don't want him messing with any other chems while I am away. No telling what I could come home to though.

Anyway, let me know what you think so far.

Thanks for all the help from everyone, btw!

John

[duraleigh]

Good morning, John,

I have never used polyquat so I have nothing to offer other than I'll bet the dosage is on the bottle. Others may know.

John, I personally have never needed polyquat but Pooldoc indicates it does no harm, is probably a very good preventative, and may be helpful as a cure.

I like your pH and Alk numbers. Don't overworry if they drift around somewhat.....that's maybe as much due to the testing vagaries as anything else. Just keep them around where they are.

You are wise to restrict your neighbor to bleach. You are doing everything well (very accurate additions of your chemicals) and I believe you will see continuing improvement in your pool if you continue the regimen.

I'm not sure the lower pH helped the Cl....I've read that but don't know. The results are what matters and I got a feeling you are gonna' get good results :)

[CUTURHAIR]

Thanks Dave. I hope I am getting there! Do you think if I can keep the FC as near to 15 as possible through Saturday morning, that will be ok? Then, if it seems to be gone, just have neighbor dose with normal amts of bleach?

I think I will probably add some polyquat to be safe. Anyone else advise this for my situation, or NOT advise? If you advise this, can you tell me what dosage to use, a true treatment dose I would assume, or a maintenance dose?

Thanks,
John

[sailork]

John, I tried the link and it didn't work for me either. I've put the Bleachcalc on my home web server (I'll delete it whenever mwsmith's comes back up...) See if you can get it from here...

Ah, He's changed the link. I'm taking mine down and posting his:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Emwsmith70/data/BleachCalc262.exe

[CUTURHAIR]

Yes, that did work. Thanks! I think Michael was working on it yesterday, as I found the new link to work that he had changed. Those calculators are awesome!

[ytngt]

I am a big time believer in polyquat.

I have a plaster pool that was mistreated by the original owners and it is rough in areas. I refuse to replaster the pool until it gets significantly worse... When you have rough plaster you have to be on the lookout for black alge. So I have used polyquat as algae prevention for three years. Knock on wood but I have never had a green, yellow, or black algae bloom...

I would add the whole 32oz bottle to your pool as an initial super dose of polyquat.

The only problem with polyquat is the price, normally $20... But I ordered some from Leslies on sale $7.33/quart last month now it is on sale under $5.00. So I ordered 5 more quarts.

Good luck.

[CUTURHAIR]

Is that the Pooltrine 60? Is that what you ordered from Leslies? Wonder why it is so cheap online?
John

[ytngt]

Yes, the pooltrine 60 from Leslies is polyquat. I have used a hand full of brands (polyquat) over the years but this is by far the best price ever!!!

The biggest complaint anyone has with polyquat is the price but that argument vaporizes at $5 a quart.

[poolrx]

John,

I dealt with Mustard algae 2 years ago. The pool store made things 100 times worse! This forum saved my bacon. I have a 17,00 gal AG pool with a DE filter.
This is what I did:
1st you need your stabilizer level at at least 30 otherwise the sun will start destroying your chlorine as soon as it comes out. Closer to 40 would probably be better. Keep you chlorine b/t 10-15 at all times(use calculator to determine). Add 1 quart of POLY- Poly[oxyethylene(dimethyliminio)ethylene(dimethyliminio )ethylene dichloride] 60% algacide immediately and then another qt in 3 days. Leslies Poly 60 is "Step 4 algae preventer" (link= www.lesliespool.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=8110&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=14&iSubCat=106&iProductID=8110). I don't know if POOLTRINE 60 is the same! Seems awefully cheap to be true? Do not use yellow out. Trust me! (Or copper for that fact) Only use the Poly 60.
Get your PH as close as possible to 7.3-7.6. If you go too low add a little Borax to bring it back up. Don't worry too much about alkalinity is should stabilize around 100 when you ph stabilizes.
Vacum to waste- not through your filter. Keep in mind that most tap water has a high PH so if you need to add water you may need to compensate with the Muriatic Acid(use small amounts). Also rain has a low ph and a significant amount can lower the PH in the pool. Add Borax to compensate if needed(use small amounts). My algae was gone in a week and has never returned! I use 4oz of poly 60 every Sunday and add about 4 gallons of bleach per week to keep my cl level around 5ppm(stablizer is still around 60-was at 120 when the pool store got done with me-thats another story:(. My pool has been beautiful ever since. I thank Ben and this forum everytime I go swimming:) This should work if you can keep your cl level up throughout the day. Try to keep your filter running as much as possible to keep the water circulating and vacum as much of the algae as you can out of the pool. I would probably wait a few days after the 2nd dose of poly 60 before swimming.

Good luck, Joe

[ytngt]

poolrx,
I have attached a pic of the active ingredient in pooltrine 60. It looks to be the same as the POLY ingredient you posted above.

I see no reason to pay $22 a quart when the pooltrine in $4.83!

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/attachment.php?attachmentid=265&stc=1&d=1149724306

[poolrx]

poolrx,
I have attached a pic of the active ingredient in pooltrine 60. It looks to be the same as the POLY ingredient you posted above.

I see no reason to pay $22 a quart when the pooltrine in $4.83!

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/attachment.php?attachmentid=265&stc=1&d=1149724306

Nice! Thank You. I guess they are clearing house at Leslie's. That is the stuff:)

[CarlD]

That's a GREAT price! I cringe at paying $19.95 a quart and wait till it's $15/qt or less and buy a bunch and they go in my basement. But under $5 is amazing!

[haze_1956]

I received my Pooltrine 60 from Leslies yesterday. It's Polyquat 60%!

I see they also have a Polyquat with a Leslies label called "Algae Control" for $23 a quart.

They are probably liquidating the Pooltrine 60 from stock.

[CUTURHAIR]

I think I will try to get a quart of Polyquat 60 today and throw in. Things are looking much better. I am still getting a very small amt. of what I would assume is DEAD algea at this point, and it could be coming from my PoolBuster Max CG, that is sucking in, and coming back out, not staying in the filter bag, even tho it is the extra fine bag. I have made sure that I am AT 15 PPM, almost around the clock since this thread started, and have vac'd almost every day, and brushed on the other days. Tomorrow, I am going to vac to waste. If I do vac to waste tomorrow, I will add the polyquat to it after the vac to waste. Will that be too soon, since I added CYA to the pool on Saturday (if memory serves!)? My CYA is up in the low 30 range. I will recheck when I get back from vacation and see if that needs to go up a tad more. I only lost .5ppm of chlorine last night, and there was a grub worm in the pool this morning that could have been responsible for that loss. If I don't vac to waste, I will just use the poolbuster tomorrow and Saturday morning, before I leave town for the week. I don't want to chance losing any stabilizer if it is too soon to vac. to waste?

Thanks,
John

[duraleigh]

Hi, John,

Sounds like your on the home stretch. Just a reminder....don't give up. Keep that Cl right up there 'til your water looks like you want it to.

I have never been a big proponent of vac to waste. I think a lot of it depends on your filtering capacity. I am lucky to have a huge filter.

If you have gotten this far and you feel like your filter is doing a pretty good job....I'd let it do the work. Of course simply vacuuming in the "filter" position is very helpful.

Good work, John. Keep your Cl up. :)

[poolrx]

John you don't have to vaccum to waste. I suggested it b/c a. the algae clogs the filter much faster and b. Mustard Algae is very resilient and getting out of your pool reduces the risk of reoccurances. You would be suprised how little adding an inch of fresh water affects the pool chemistry(at least in my pool). Since you have been having a problem with the ph bottoming out it may actually help to add fresh water.
Also should have added some more detail regarding vaccuming. By vaccuming I mean to get out the large deposits sitting on the bottom. I would only vaccum long enough to get them out. I would angle my return so that the flow of water would push everything to one side. Don't be afraid to add the poly 60 as it has no negative affect on ph, cl, etc. I have had great success with it the last 2 years.

Good luck and enjoy your vacation, Joe

[poolrx]

I think I will try to get a quart of Polyquat 60 today and throw in. Things are looking much better. I am still getting a very small amt. of what I would assume is DEAD algea at this point, and it could be coming from my PoolBuster Max CG, that is sucking in, and coming back out, not staying in the filter bag, even tho it is the extra fine bag. I have made sure that I am AT 15 PPM, almost around the clock since this thread started, and have vac'd almost every day, and brushed on the other days. Tomorrow, I am going to vac to waste. If I do vac to waste tomorrow, I will add the polyquat to it after the vac to waste. Will that be too soon, since I added CYA to the pool on Saturday (if memory serves!)? My CYA is up in the low 30 range. I will recheck when I get back from vacation and see if that needs to go up a tad more. I only lost .5ppm of chlorine last night, and there was a grub worm in the pool this morning that could have been responsible for that loss. If I don't vac to waste, I will just use the poolbuster tomorrow and Saturday morning, before I leave town for the week. I don't want to chance losing any stabilizer if it is too soon to vac. to waste?

Thanks,
John

John,

With an inground pool you pump should have a bypass valve that allows you to pump the water directly to waste before it reaches the filter. You don't want backwash your filter since you recently added the stabilizer(unless it is clogged from the algae. Is it DE or sand.

[waterbear]

Check my mustard thread...I used sodium bromide and kept the FC above 12 and had good luck. Before treating, I kept the FC above 10 for about a week, then added 4oz per 10gallons and added 1 galon bleach per 10k to kick the stuff into action. Then kept hitting the pool with clorox for 4 or 5 days to keep the levels above 12ppm...which BTW was alot more clorox than i thought it would be because the SB eats clorox like crazy. I seem to have kicked...no algae in sight for the 3rd morning.... I walked TundraSQ through the sodium bromide treatment because he had already put it into the pool when I started helping him. It really is more of a last resort measure when cholrine just doesn't seem to work. It isn't any easier or faster....you are just substituting bromine for chlorine. Polyquat is a good addition if the chlorine isn't working, also. The main reason that chlorine alone won't work is that the levels are allowed to yo-yo up and down from not putting it in often enough or perhaps from not having an adequate CYA level to protect it from the sun. HIt it hard and hit it often and brush, brush, brush and chlorine will usually do the job!

[CUTURHAIR]

My water has looked nothing less than crystal clear, ever since this new liner was installed several seasons ago, and I only have Ben's recommended products in there. The average person would never believe there was algae in this pool, but would think it was just tiny piles of dust/dirt.

I am still keeping that CL up, and luckily, my schedule has allowed me to check CL levels very often this week. It is next week I am worried about, since I will be out of town. My roommate is actually going to be here. He is good for dumping in bleach, when told, but that is about all he knows about pool maintenance. PLUS, he is color blind, so I don't even know if he could test the chlorine levels!

I will try to get a quart of polyquat 60 in tomorrow. How long do you need to wait before swimming after adding a quart of that? I think a quart is for 10,000 gallons, can't remember. My pool is 11,200 gallons. Do I really need to get a second quart to make up for the other 1,200 gallons of water? I wish I could order it online from Leslies and get the cheap stuff, but I am racing against time, and want to get it in ASAP!

Well, I will see what things look like in the morning. CL was down to 13 when I just got in from work, so I will take that back up to 15 and see how much I drop overnight.

Thanks again for all the help!
John

[ytngt]

I will try to get a quart of polyquat 60 in tomorrow. How long do you need to wait before swimming after adding a quart of that? I think a quart is for 10,000 gallons, can't remember. My pool is 11,200 gallons. Do I really need to get a second quart to make up for the other 1,200 gallons of water? I wish I could order it online from Leslies and get the cheap stuff, but I am racing against time, and want to get it in ASAP!


I pay $20 locally for a quart of poly 60%. You can swim immediatly after adding it. A quart is exactly what you need to super dose your pool. They recommend 16 oz per 10,000 gal but I have never had problems because of adding a double dose.

[poolrx]

I pay $20 locally for a quart of poly 60%. You can swim immediatly after adding it. A quart is exactly what you need to super dose your pool. They recommend 16 oz per 10,000 gal but I have never had problems because of adding a double dose.

I agree I did the same. I even added a 3 qt the following week b/c I was so paranoid the algae may come back. But it did not:) Can't answer on the swimming for sure though. I would swim but maybe keep any kids out for a few days.

If you have a Lowe's home improvement around they were selling a qt for $15.99 last season. Just verify that it is poly 60.

"The average person would never believe there was algae in this pool, but would think it was just tiny piles of dust/dirt."

John, This could be hit or miss. All depends if it mysteriously multiplies everyday:mad: Each time my lawn is mowed I end up with small clumps of brown. But when I vaccum them out, they are gone! If you get the 2 qts in before you leave and your roommate keeps the cl levels up next week you hopefully should be good to go. Unfortunately Mustard algae is more of a pain in the butt then the green algae but you'll get there.

Joe