New Pool - Flow doesnt seem right

[jeremyweber]

Hi,

We recently bought a new house with an in ground pool. Ive been busy trying to get everything set up and believe I have done so correctly. However, one thing I have noticed is that flow rate to the pool and the suction at the skimmer dont really seem to be strong. I cant tell for certain because this is our first season with the pool.

I have noticed two things - If i turn the filter valve to recirculate it seems the flow is much, much stronger. Is this normal? Also the owners manual for the filter states to open the air relieve valve when starting until a steady stream of water comes out. I get a very weak stream here as well. When opened the pressure gauge drops to 0 and backup to a little more than 10 when closed.

Can anyone advise me as to whether or not it working correctly or perhaps to improve flow?

Pool Setup
32x16 Inground
Hayward Microclear Vertical Grid DE Filter
Hayward Pump - Not sure at the moment of the model but I know its rated for 24 Sqr Feet. I believe its from the High-Performance Pump series...
2 feeding lines
4 Return lines, 2 in the stairs, one across from it and one in the deep end.


Anyway,

Thanks

J

[waste]

J, welcome to the forum, sounds like your filter may need to be cleaned. You might want to try backwashing it, if you are unsure as to how to do this just ask and I'll walk you through it. If backwashing doesn't do the trick I've got some other ideas. Keep us posted - good luck!

[jeremyweber]

Thanks for the help, Im hoping you have some ideas, as this has been the most fustrating day, and I if cant resolve it, Ill need to call in some pros.
At one point, I was thinking &#**# it - just cover the thing back up.

Heres what I have done today.

1. Disconnected everything. Cleaned all the threads where pipes connect.
2. Took apart the filter and cleaned it out. There was a lot of gook.
3. Put everything back together.
4. Attempted to vacuum leaves from bottom of the pool, which broke the basket.
5. Went to the store, got a new basket.
6. Tried vacuuming again,

It seemed to be working fine. I am no longer seeing any air collected in the strainer that is connected to the pump. Pump pressure starts at 10 and gets to 20/25 fairly quickly ( 30 minutes or so. ). When the pressure gets to 20/25 there is a noticable decrease in the flow.

Additionally vacuuming is tough. The water is so green and murky right now, its hard to make out anything in the deep end. And it seems that the suction is only good for 10 minutes or so.

Questions

1. It says to backwash for 2/3 minutes on the filter. Is that the right? We are on a well, so water is precious.
2. Should I add more DE everytime I backwash?
3. When I turn the valve from backwash to filter, there is a lot gurgling and I can see lots of air bubbles.
4. As stated in my first post, the stream of water I get when I open the air relief valve is just a dribble. Is this normal?

Someones got to help me save face... You see I originally was going to have someone open the pool until I found out what they charged. I figured I had done our above ground pool at the prior house before and it was no big deal. I really dont want to have someone comeout but I am at my wits end.

Unless of course anyone on this board is from CT, thinks they can help and has a free afternoon, I would certainly supply the pizza and beer...:)

[waste]

Sorry I can't help you right now, sometings come up in my personal life that can't be ignored - I had 1/2 a response written, but can't do the follow through. Real quick, you're not backwashing correctly, yes add more de after backwashing, don't worry about the 'gurgulling'. I'll expand tomarrow, but I've gotta go right now . Sorry

[jeremyweber]

Eagerly waiting your reply, although I cant for the life of me figure out how I can be screwing up backwashing.... With that said, you would not believe the things that I can screw up. :)

Heres how I am doing it now.

1. Turn pump off
2. Turn valve to backwash.
3. Turn pump on
4. Wait until water is clear.
5. Turn pump off
6. Move handle to filter.
7. Add more DE.
8. Turn pump on.

Just for the record, I also have dial-a-flow controls on the pipes into and out of the pump/filter. Dont know if that matters or not.

Thanks again and I really appreciate it.

[rmeden]

I repeat the steps a few times seems to help get more of the DE out.

Don't forget to tear down the filter and clean it every few backwashes.... I just did mine... it was a mess! (after backwashing)

I know you're supposed to turn the pump off when changing the valve, but I usually don't.. it's only between positions for a fraction of a second.

Robert

[jeremyweber]

Thanks for the response...

I cleaned out the filter, this morning and it didnt seem to make a difference. All I did was open it, and wash away deposits of DE. If there is any more to it than that, I didnt do it.

The problem I have is it, only takes about 20/30 minutes before my flow drops and the pressure raises to where I would need to backwash. We are on a well, so I am trying to minimize how much I backwash. Every 20/30 minutes would be insane.

[jeremyweber]

More info - Just talked to a local pool place and they said to bring the filter element in for an acid wash...

[waste]

J, again sorry about not being able to type a full post last night!
As for backwashing the cycle is Backwash till the water clears up, RINSE for 15 - 30 sec. (this removes the loosened debris that hasn't found it's way out of the filter yet) then repeat this process until the backwash starts out clean, then it's time to go back to 'filter' and add 80% of ther recommended de (which microclear do you have? if it's the 7.5 lb (6020) only add 6 lbs of de, if it's the 6 lb (4800) only add 5 lbs) since backwashing can only remove 80% of the de, only replace 80%, adding too much or too little can cause performance problems. However, as you are on a well and don't want to tax it's ability to keep the pool full, and said that you've ripped it apart and hosed it before, I would recommend doing that when you need to backwash, it'll save you water. When you hose off the grids, do you get into all the channels between the 8 grids from top and bottom? Doing this with a hose that has low pressure can take a while, but if you use the backwash hose, with the multiport set on WASTE, you can do it much quicker with less water loss (pinch the hose end and direct the flow in between the grids from the side) If you go to remove the 'nest' (the grid assembly) and can barely move it from it's weight, odds are that the filter has been 'over charged' and instead of having 7 lbs of de in it, it has 30 lbs, you may want to rethink the acid wash, your problem could easily be caused by way too much de in the filter. An indication that chemical cleaning needs to be done is if the grids retain a good bit of water after being thoroughly hosed.
If you plan on taking your grids to be acidwashed, keep me posted, I am in Ct and would feel really bad if in the next week I got a work order to acid wash Jeremy Weber's grids. There's a post here (I'll try ! to capture it and edit it into this post, but my sucess rate on linking is ... well, low) about removing oils before doing the acid wash (using detergent or TSP) because acid washing oilfilled grids clogs them. I wish you well with your problem and will keep my eye on this thread - GO HUSKIES!

[jeremyweber]

Hey no worries, thanks for the time spent.

Heres the progress I have made yesterday early evening...

1. Doing a rinse on after a backwash. Seems to work, I read this another post so I have yet to try your method of doing kit multiple times.
2. Changed so that my incoming flow is only coming from the skimmer and outgoing flow is only going to 2 of the ports.
3. Added some algacide and shock.

I have decided to hold off on the acid wash, for now...

Questions/Observations
1. What about that gurgling I mentioned?
2. What of the low stream from the air relief valve on top of the filter? What is it suppossed to be like?
3. Is there some way to know if the system is behaving optimally? It seems better now, but how do I know if its performing? Especially that I found that if change the dial-a-flow controls, to only use some of the ports it works better. I want to be able to use all of them. So is there some type of measurement or something that I can do?
4. I am pretty sure that I have the 2400 model. The manual says its effective filtration area is 24 square feet. So for a 16b by 32 pool is this sufficient? I am freaking out now because the models you mention seem to be more powerful...
5. The most DE I have put in is 3 1/2 coffee cans full. This came from the bag of DE. It said that 1 coffeen can was 7/10 of a pound. For a 24 Square foot pool use 2 1/2 pounds. According to your post sounds like I should be adding a whole lot more, but not as much after backwash. It seem the instructions say to add 3 pounds. Probably been screwing those both up.
6. When I hosed off the filter elements I got everything... Took my time.
7. Still not sure about this acid wash thing. When I removed it came out rather easily. I dont think that the filters were retaining water, but I wasnt really looking at that.
8. It sounds like it would be acceptable to rinse the filter elements with a hose instead of backwashing? If thats the case I will try that the first couple of times. It didnt take that much water to do it. Maybe 25-35 gallons I would say.
9. Is acid washing something I could handle myself?
10. How much DE should I expect to use throughout a season? The prior homeowners left a little in a 10 pound bag from last season. I bought a 25 pound bag and was thinking that it would last a long time. Doesnt seem like it.

Will have more later.

Thanks

J

[waste]

J, as I read and reread this I'm starting to think that it's the algae that's causing the problem, Algae is especially good at clogging up a de filter, the size of an individual algae cell is very close to the size of the paths in the de coating. I offer the following as a suggestion (in fact it is pure hypothosis on my part, I've never heard of it being done and believe I just originated the concept): after the gauge reaches 20 psi, backwash for ~ 5 - 10 seconds, stop when you see the first de/ crud in the sightglass. Go back to filter, without rinsing. The old style de filters used to get 'bumped' when they needed cleaning (bumping involved jerking the de collection fingers (the precurser to your grids), up and down to stir up the de and make fresh paths for the water [the outside of the de coating is where most of the obstructing occurs, if you can expose the clean de, it should enable you to get more bang for your de] * As this is theoretical, keep an eye on your pressure gauge and see if, and how much the pressure drops each time (ie, get to 20 psi, try the 'less waste' method, and see where the psi is, if it drops to 15 you might be able to do it 2x before having to backwash properly, or-in your case- break the filter down and manually clean it) I can easily understand why you wouldn't want to try a purely speculative method, but in your case, with the filter clogging every 1/2 hour or so, it may save you some water, time and de.
Anyway, to your ?s and observations:
1) The gurgulling is caused by the 5 different ports in the multiport being opened simultaniously as you change positions, when you push down on the handle you open all 5 ports for a moment and let air into some and the water in the valve and filter to seek the lowest point via the others - so it gurgles - no problem.
2) The stream should shoot a few feet when the filter is clean, if it doesn't there is probably an obstruction in the air relief valve itself (as long as your pressure is fine otherwise). Unscrew the knob you relieve the air with all the way, and poke a paper clip or similarly small ridged object through it - you could try to get the pump to clear it (by pulling the stem out with the system running), but you'll probably get wet.
3) There are ways, but don't worry about them yet - you checked the system by running on 'recirc' - if you still have problems after the algae is gone we can adress it.
4) Don't worry about what we put on our pools, we overplumb the (%#@$^& out of them, on a pool your size we'd have at least 1 skimmer, 2 low suction ports, 3 returns in the pool, 2 jets in the stairs and 3 low returns with at least a 1 hp pump to drive them all ( there's a fair chance of a spillover spa being attached to the pool, also) Sounds like you have all you need.
5) I wouldn't say that you're screwing up anything, you are being dilligent, and cleaning it by hand frequently - the cleaning by hand regularly fixes both under and over charging the filter. The bags we sometimes use say that a 1 lb coffee can = 1/2 lb de, as long as you're in the ballpark in the amount you add each time, the problems should be minimal, it's the way over or under that causes problems. Also humidity or moist de will weigh in as being less #s than perfectly dry de.
6) That's what you've gotta do :)
7) The grids will hold about 2" of water after washing when they need to be chemically treated, which comes out slowly, if the fabric looks 'bowed out' at the bottom after you wash them, it's a fair indication that they need a chem washing - if you feel grit on them, they do need the acid wash.
8) I'm thinking that your best way to clean the filter is with the garden hose, it doesn't cost you much water, and you obviously know how to take apart and reassemble the filter - please remember to lube the o-rings every few times with a silicone or teflon based lubricant (** NEVER USE VASOLINE OR A PETROLIUM BASED LUBE TO TREAT YOUR POOL O-RINGS, YOU"LL WRECK THEM!!!**)
9) If you ever find the need to do your own acid wash, it's easy and costs a whole lot less than having a pool store do it!
10) In a regular season, without an algae problem, you might expect to replace the de 3 - 5 times, your actual needs depend on a large number of factors, so that's just a guess. As you get used to your pool, you'll be able to judge for yourself.
This post is already too long but I feel I must direct you to the 'dealing with algae' area. Please look at it. Basicaly, what you want to do is remove any big stuff (leaves, rodents, etc) so that your chlorine can do it's job more effectivly, get some numbers (free cl, total cl, pH, total alk, calcium hardness, and CYA (stabilizer) ) and post them (in the appropriate area) and let the knowledgable folks here help you clean the pool. Hope this makes up for my not being able to tell you all of this the other night - Good luck, if you need any clarification - just ask! :)

[jeremyweber]

Sorry for the delay in the reply...

Firstly, let me say this. Your help has been invaluable and I really appreciate it. I dont think I have ever gotton a more complete response to any question I have ever asked on the internet...

Okay so heres the scoop...

BACKWASH, RINSE, BACKWASH RINSE, repeat and whohooo! That seems to have done the trick. I started the fitler last night at about 10pm nd it was still going strong at 7am this morning. Again I say whohoo!

Pool only has a slight greenish tint now and I think I am ready to try vacuuming once more. Will post numbers if its not clearing up...:)

Thanks again.

[waste]

J, glad to hear it, good luck with the algae!!