New Owner - Need Help-- Please [Archive]

View Full Version : New Owner - Need Help-- Please

michladny

06-03-2006, 03:04 PM

Hi everyone!
We just got a 24' above ground pool (I have always wanted a pool and LOVE the water and so do the kids!!!! I am very motivated to keep it sparkling clear/clean as I DO NOT like swimming in the "unknown"-LOL). I am a bit confused as to what I need to keep things in order so I am hoping you will all help me. The only experience I have is helping my sister-in-law with her pool (RARELY) so I have bits and pieces of information and now that is not near good enough. Pool places sell you whatever they can and act like you know how to do this all. I have been there twice and they TRIED to push off $60.00 or more worth of chemicals on me.:mad: I got a strip test kit w/ my pool package (which I HATE) so I am going to get a drop test kit after I get more info but want to know what I need to test for so I can get the right kit.

Here are some things "off the top of my head" that I was wondering about....

1. How often do you add Algecide to a pool?
2. I have a Hayward sand filter w/ a 1.5HP pump, I leave it run 24 -7 --- is that ok to do (I only turn it off when we have a bad storm)?
3. When you vacuum your pool do you change the filter over to something other than vacuum or does it stay there (on filter)? What would the waste setting be used for?
4. Backwashing should be done when the gauge gets to what number/pressure (it is usually around 15)? I usually do that right before and after I vacuum - is that right?
4. How do you clean the basket attatched to the pump area w/o water shooting everywhere (the one that needs to be filled with water before running)?
5. I have a light black ring/dirty area around my skimmer basket area-- how do I clean it off and why is it there?
6. What other chemicals should I test for that are important besides the Chlorine, Alk, and PH? How often do I test for these things?
7. Can bleach really replace pool store "shock" treatments and how often do I need to do shock treatments to a pool? Do you add the bleach right to the pool water or skimmer basket?
8. I know the sun affects the Chlorine so on an average temp and sun day, how many tablets would you use per week or day or should I be checking my Chlorine daily cause of all of the factors that affect the levels?

Sorry that these might sound DUH but I am learning as I go..... I am really looking forward to all of your knowledge:) Thanks (in advance) for the help!!!:)

Michelle

larry2338

06-03-2006, 05:10 PM

1. How often do you add Algecide to a pool?
2. I have a Hayward sand filter w/ a 1.5HP pump, I leave it run 24 -7 --- is that ok to do (I only turn it off when we have a bad storm)?
3. When you vacuum your pool do you change the filter over to something other than vacuum or does it stay there (on filter)? What would the waste setting be used for?
4. Backwashing should be done when the gauge gets to what number/pressure (it is usually around 15)? I usually do that right before and after I vacuum - is that right?
4. How do you clean the basket attatched to the pump area w/o water shooting everywhere (the one that needs to be filled with water before running)?
5. I have a light black ring/dirty area around my skimmer basket area-- how do I clean it off and why is it there?
6. What other chemicals should I test for that are important besides the Chlorine, Alk, and PH? How often do I test for these things?
7. Can bleach really replace pool store "shock" treatments and how often do I need to do shock treatments to a pool? Do you add the bleach right to the pool water or skimmer basket?
8. I know the sun affects the Chlorine so on an average temp and sun day, how many tablets would you use per week or day or should I be checking my Chlorine daily cause of all of the factors that affect the levels?

1. You may never need algaecide if you keep your chemical levels right and learn to use the correct amount of chlorine if you have an algae 'bloom'.

2. It's OK to run your pump 24/7 but you could probably run it quite a bit less and save a significant amount of electricity. I'll let someone who knows more about the flow rate of your pump to recommend run time.

3. You would vacuum to waste if you have a large amount of debris in the pool that would otherwise clog up the filter quickly.

4. If your pressure normally runs 15 psi, I would backwash when it rises to between 20 and 25 psi.

4? Do a search on this forum for 'How to empty pump strainer basket without a flood'.

5. The technical term is 'crud'. It's from any number of sources including body oils, suntan oils, etc.

6.Chlorine (preferably both free cl and combined cl), ph, alkalinity, cyanuric acid.

7. Yes, most people on this forum shock with plain, ordinary, inexpensive bleach. In spite of what many pool stores will tell you, unless you develop a problem such as an algae outbreak, you might not ever need to shock your pool. Shocking is certainly not a regular maintenance procedure. Any time you add bleach, pour it slowly in front of a return line so it mixes and becomes diluted quickly. Don't splash it on your liner.

8. Check out the threads on the forum regarding CYA. If you have no CYA level in your pool, you need one. It will keep sunlight from breaking down your chlorine. Your correct chlorine level will depend on your CYA level. Once you determine that, test every day or so and add just enough chlorine to maintain that correct level. I can't comment on quantity of tablets you'll use as I have never used them. Beyond that, an 'average' day where I am is 10 hours of full sun and 94 degrees. May be quite different in your location.

9. There's no substitute for reading as much as you can on this forum site. You'll learn quickly and have your pool in great shape in no time. If I've missed anything or inadvertently misinformed, there are plenty of well qualified people who will chime in.

michladny

06-03-2006, 11:08 PM

Hi there...

THANKS for the start of good info--much appreciated.

As of right now my CRAPPY strips have me in perfect ranges so I believe I am close either way (beginner's luck I am sure)!!! When I started adding chemicals I went through a WHOLE bottle of PH+ and 2 bags of conditioner/stabilizer cause I added the chemicals according to the "pool" place directions on one of the boxes.

So let me get this straight---
1. PH can be increased by Baking soda? I know I read that the trichlor decreses the PH.... I use the tabs...is that NOT GOOD?
2. With what do you adjust alkalinity --- ?
3. The CYA is adjusted by the use of stabilizer and the constant use of the chlorine tablets? How does that get so high if the chlorine is used up from what you are putting in the pool? Pool places do not tell you that tablets will raise CYA (I know to sell chemicals) but if CYA shouldn't get too high then that is crappy of them!!!! I was informed that you only need to add the stabilizer once a season? How would you decrease the CYA?
The trichlor tablets I use I place two in the floater and that lasts a few days...(the pool pace said to add FOUR and replace when dissolved-that seems like an awful lot!!!!) I have had the pool filled and open for the past three weeks (only swimming last week and now we had some rain/storms)and my numbers have looked pretty good. I believe someone told me that HTH makes a chlorine tab with algecide in it (or do they all have that in there since it is chlorine)? I also saw the HTH tabs have copper so I shouldn't use them?
4. Wll I EVER feel confident about taking care of this POOL?????:o :o :o

This CYA confuses me sooo much.... If I use tablets (trichlor) I can add lots of stuff I do not need? If you test faithfully and all is well then why couldn't you continue to use the tablets? Why is bleach so much better? CYA too high does what?

I have been reading this site/forum for the past three hours taking notes !!!!!!

Michelle

aylad

06-04-2006, 12:17 AM

So let me get this straight---
1. PH can be increased by Baking soda? I know I read that the trichlor decreses the PH.... I use the tabs...is that NOT GOOD?

No. pH is increased by Borax, and decreased by trichlor or dichlor, or by muriatic acid or dry acid. The tabs are not necessarily bad, but if you're having a hard time keeping your pH up, then losing the tabs is the first thing you'll need to do to correct it. The tabs also release CYA into the water as they dissolve. You need some CYA in order to protect your chlorine from the sun, but you need to be aware that as your CYA level rises, then so must your "baseline" level of chlorine. See Ben's Best Guess Chart at the top of the Chlorine forum for a guideline you can use for required chlorine amounts based on your CYA level.

2. With what do you adjust alkalinity --- ? You
You raise it with baking soda, and you lower it by using acid to lower alk til your pH is around 7.0, then aerate the pool to raise the pH back up without again raising TA.

3. The CYA is adjusted by the use of stabilizer and the constant use of the chlorine tablets? How does that get so high if the chlorine is used up from what you are putting in the pool?

The chlorine is used up in the pool, but the stabilizer is not. The only way to lower the level is to drain/refill.

Pool places do not tell you that tablets will raise CYA (I know to sell chemicals) but if CYA shouldn't get too high then that is crappy of them!!!!
You're right, and that's the purpose behind this forum.

I was informed that you only need to add the stabilizer once a season? How would you decrease the CYA?
Drain/refill.

The trichlor tablets I use I place two in the floater and that lasts a few days...(the pool pace said to add FOUR and replace when dissolved-that seems like an awful lot!!!!) I have had the pool filled and open for the past three weeks (only swimming last week and now we had some rain/storms)and my numbers have looked pretty good. I believe someone told me that HTH makes a chlorine tab with algecide in it (or do they all have that in there since it is chlorine)? I also saw the HTH tabs have copper so [B]I shouldn't use them?

The copper that hth has added to their tabs is an algaecide, but copper is the culprit when you have green hair and nails, and also tends to stain pools. Don't add copper to your water, it creates LOTS more problems than it solves.
4. Wll I EVER feel confident about taking care of this POOL?????:o :o :o

Yep, it just takes time.......

This CYA confuses me sooo much.... If I use tablets (trichlor) I can add lots of stuff I do not need? If you test faithfully and all is well then why couldn't you continue to use the tablets?
See my explanation above.
Why is bleach so much better?
Because bleach only adds chlorine, NOT extra CYA, Ca, or anything else.

CYA too high does what?
Requires you to maintain high chlorine levels to ward off the algae.

I have been reading this site/forum for the past three hours taking notes !!!!!!

Hang in there, it seems like a lot of info, but it will all make sense eventually! :)

Hope this helps!!

Janet

bparks

06-04-2006, 01:16 AM

4. Wll I EVER feel confident about taking care of this POOL?????:o :o :o

I have been reading this site/forum for the past three hours taking notes !!!!!!

Michelle

When you get it all squared away, and all you have to do is test every day, and add part of a bottle of generic bleach every other day, and it always looks perfect you will be very confident. It's really not that hard, and the advice here is priceless.

CarlD

06-04-2006, 07:03 AM

No,
it really isn't that hard. Once everything is in balance, you'll probably need to add some bleach every other day--probably between a quart and a gallon, but how much, I cannot say.

It all seems SO confusing but it's not. There's two things that matter: Chlorine to sanitize your water, and pH to ensure it's neutral and not too acidic and not too basic.

All total alkalinity is for (and the name is misleading to the laity) is it's a buffer for the pH--it keeps pH stable and from bouncing. You need it, but too much is a problem

CYA/Stabilizer's job is similar, but for chlorine. It's a buffer that keeps chlorine from breaking down too fast, especially when exposed to sunshine (without which summer isn't summer). You need CYA, but too much is a problem

Calcium is for concrete pools, not vinyl ones. It saturates the water with enough calcium to prevent it from leeching out of the concrete or plaster. Not an issue with vinyl. It's only a problem if it's too high.

Other stuff: Most if it you should NEVER need if you follow the procedures discussed here.

There's algaecide--most are copper or ammonia-based or foam and we recommend you NEVER use them. The only algaecide we recommend (and only as a preventative) is Polyquat 60%.

There's clarifier and yellow-out and flocculant--(Polyquat
acts like the last but otherwise most of us NEVER use these)--and pool stores push them.

There's sequestering agents--this is only if you have problems with metals--maybe one in 100 of our members EVER need this--if that many.

There's phosphates and phosphate removers. This is the pool store biz's latest scare tactic to sell you very expensive removers. Forget about it! Unless EVERYTHING we suggest here doesn't work, AND you have very high phosphate levels, that may be your answer--I can think of maybe 2 or 3 cases where it WAS necessary in the last 7 years.

Finally, there's the chemicals you use. You can keep your pool indefinitely sweet and clean using the BBB's--Bleach, Borax and Baking Soda. Add to that Muriatic Acid and CYA(stabilizer) and that's IT!!!!!!

But there's a catch--you have to have a good test kit, and use it regularly. Anything from the cheapee WalMart HTH 5-way test kit (THE bargain in test kits) to PoolDoc's PS-234 (the best home-owner's kit--and still very reasonable in price) will, if used properly keep you with sweet, safe, clean, BEAUTIFUL water.

Go to PoolSolutions.Com and start reading. Read EVERYTHING--then read it again...I went from totally lost 7 years ago to always having a "happy" pool. I was confident enough to go from a 4,000 gallon Intex 15' round donut (which doesn't owe us a dime from all the fun we had in it) to a 20,000 gallon 40x16 custom FantaSea with built-in, "invisible" solar heating. I credit PoolSolutions.com and this forum for my education.

michladny

06-04-2006, 11:01 AM

Ok - THANK YOU ALL FOR THE INFO---- I FEEL A LITTLE BETTER!!!

As far as the kit, I am going to get one today!!!

My levels look ok but as of right now I can take the tabs outta the floater and start testing to use bleach...correct? I will test daily so I can learn what I will need to keep my levels in check:)

Adding the bleach should go in front of return and not in through the skimmer?

I am on my way to Walmart (bleach, baking soda, and Borax) and then I am going to stop and get a Taylor test kit from the pool store (unless I can find one at Walmart or Target).

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!! :D

Michelle

mbar

06-04-2006, 11:25 AM

michladny

06-04-2006, 01:30 PM

CarlD

06-04-2006, 01:42 PM

I took the water to get tested and here is what I got:

Sat Index 0.26
Total Dissolved Solids 0
Free Chlorine 2.4
Total Chlorine 2.5
Combined Chlorine 0.1
pH 7.9
CYA 53
Copper 0
Iron 0
Total Alk 100
Adjusted total Alk 81
Calcium Hardness 10 (they said it was 0 but put 10 in for the computer)
Temp 75

They wanted me to raise the Alk w/ 4 lbs of Alk increaser and add 25 lbs of Calcium to the pool

Now one place told me (where I bought the pool that I do not need Calcium for an above ground pool) and this place (reccomended by MANY, MANY people said I do need some calcium) WHICH IS CORRECT?????????? I thought my Alk was fine at 100????

No! NO! NO! NO! NO!!!!!

That advice is completely and totally wrong, it will not help your problems, it will only cause more! They are just trying to sell you expensive chemicals....
"Total Alkalinity Raiser" 4 lbs--$10. Ingredient: Sodium Bicarbonate 100%

Arm&Hammer Baking Soda, 1 lb $.89 Ingredient: Sodium Bicarbonate 100%

Same stuff. But your Total Alk is 100ppm WHICH IS PERFECT!!!!!

Sure, they want to sell you calcium--it's expensive and it gives them lots of profit. It does NOTHING for a vinyl pool. I don't care if the pool store clerk says he swears on his saintly mother's head you need it. If he says if you don't need it, he'll commit Hari-Kari, then hand him a short samurai sword and tell him to go ahead. YOU DON'T NEED IT!!!!!

Calcium is SOLELY to prevent concrete and plaster pools from leeching calcium out of the walls, weakening them, into the water. By saturating the water sufficiently with calcium you prevent this. But Vinyl doesn't contain calcium and it doesn't leech it into the water, so you DON'T need calcium. I find, when I know EXACTLY what a chemical does, NOBODY can talk me into putting it in if I don't have the problem it addresses. So now you know why vinyl doesn't require calcium levels and even if a million people recommend this store, they are still WRONG.

Your pH is a bit high, but you don't need much acid to lower it--and you can leave it if you want and it will be OK.

I'd raise chlorine levels, but you can use bleach for that. If you pool is clear, you are probably OK. But if it's green, you need to go into algae-fighting mode, and there are thousands of posts on that.

Boy! I really HATE these pool store folks who mislead decent people with this garbage!

CarlD

06-04-2006, 01:44 PM

Carl,
Thanks for the post, I am printing it out to give to a friend of mine who just filled his pool, and has the dreaded test strips! You explained everything in a concise, complete way - You should put it as a sticky somewhere!

That's very flattering of you to say. There already was a sticky in the Chlorine and Chlorinating forum that I had done and Watermom put up, but I added this one to that so if one isn't clear to newbies, maybe the other is...cuz I'm too lazy to actually sit down and rewrite them as one...:rolleyes:

michladny

06-04-2006, 01:45 PM

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH!!! MY POOL WATER IS BEAUTIFULLY CLEAR and I feel fine in there.

I am going to go buy my $40.00 test kit and do this all myself:)

THANKS SO MUCH for the reassurance !!!!

Michelle

CarlD

06-04-2006, 01:51 PM

You are very welcome!

You can do this.

It's really not that hard but we find ourselves fighting the forces of ignorance and confusion. This mumbo-jumbo and secret handshake nonsense is all to separate you from your money. It's a racket.

michladny

06-04-2006, 03:27 PM

Yes, I agree and just to prove my point to the hubby I called THREE pool places/stores with the info from the first store and asked if I needed to add Calcium..... three said YES and one said NO (the place I purchased the pool said no). The three stores that said yes said you need calcium to keep the walls from scaling and you also need it to keep the water comfortable.... the place we bought the pool said no need for vinyl pools to have calcium...HMMMM...it really is a matter of trusting yourself and I cannot believe that these stores do this to people (and imagine the money they make from new owners LIKE ME!!!!).
My best friend of 10 years just put a pool in too and she just finished filling it and came home with $100.00 worth of Calcium, Alk powder, PH increase and two different test strip kits -- I directed her to this website and she called the pool place to return chemicals and they said they do not take chemicals back!!!! WHAT A RACKET!!
From now on I will only get chemicals and testing WHEN and IF there is a problem NO ONE else can fix!!!!!!

One more ? ..... can I add bleach even if I still have a chlorine tab in the floater to increase the chlorine or should I wait till it is gone or add small amounts till they are dissolved??????

Carl--- THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH !!!! My pool was just put up three weeks ago (May 17th) and the water was filled with a garden hose so it has been in use for about two weeks (maybe) my water is CLEAR and you can see the bottom of the entire pool and the pebble pattern if you shut the filter/pump off so the water is totally still (and even with it running you can still see the bottom). I feel like I have done alright so far but these stores do make you feel otherwise....

P.S. My friend Melissa just called back and wants to know if she can add the Calcium anyway now that she cannot return the 25 lbs they recommended she START with!!! She said it was like $38.00 for the bucket---YIKES!!!!

CarlD

06-04-2006, 03:40 PM

Michelle:

Here's PoolDoc's final answer to the calcium and vinyl question:

http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/tip03.html

Ben (PoolDoc) says that Professor Langlier himself say his index isn't relevant to pools, and one of the biggest manufacturers of vinyl used by the liner makers discounts the need for calcium as well.

If I were your friend, I would tell that store that if they don't take back sealed chemicals just purchased that she, and you will NEVER frequent that store again. You won't buy toys, accessories, chems you DO need, large items (like a solar cover or solar cover roller)--nothing, Nada, gornischt there--and you'll tell the 15,000 pool-owning friends you have (Us forum folks :D --but don't tell them that) not to use them.

If you have a floater in the pool, then simply add bleach to the skimmer and make sure the floater's not right at the skimmer's door. Once chlorine's in the water, it doesn't matter where it came from, but pouring bleach on the tablets could be very, very dangerous.

michladny

06-04-2006, 04:18 PM

She did call them...right after I spoke with her and they said "NO"...they told her it is right on the slip that chemicals cannot be returned no matter what!!! I am so angry with them (this is where I told her to go as others have told me they are a good place and they are the ones who tested my water and told me to also add Calcium but because of all of you I knew NOT to get it and double check first....when I came home from there this morning I called my friend and left her a message NOT to buy anything till she read this site!!!!)-- I was too late and now she is STUCK with 25 lbs of Calcium!!!

She said "you live and learn and this will be the ONE and only time she gets BURNED!!!) I agree with her and I will not go there anymore either!

One last time:

Alk - baking soda raises (what decreases it?)
pH - Borax rasises & Muriatic acid decreases -- trichlor tabs lower this?
Chl- bleach --regular or extra strength-- or either?
CYA- Stabalizer (the only thing I need from the pool store and used like ONCE a season?)

I went out and got a kit today (Walmart and Target were fresh out!!!!!) It was a little much but worht it if it keeps me in check (42.00 Taylor kit)..I guess that is ok?

Ok, I will read more around here and check in in a little after I use my OWN knowledge to care for my pool!!!

THANKS AGAIN --- INFO IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!

Michelle

Watermom

06-04-2006, 04:39 PM

See the 'sticky' in the alk forum for procedure for lowering alk.

Chlorine - I'm assuming when you say extra strength, you mean 'ultra' which is 6%. Regular is 5.25%. Either is fine to use.

CYA is stabilizer or sometimes it is called conditioner. Some people can add it and it lasts from season to season. Others, like me, have to re-add it every spring.

Hope this helps.