Bromine Chemistry Question [Archive]

PoolDoc

08-13-2013, 10:18 PM

Yeah. But what makes more sense is that you don't understand how bromine works. Not that you would -- it's a secret well-hidden by the pool industry. Far be it from them, to bad-mouth any pool product that's making somebody money, no matter how bad it is for the consumer.

1. CYA does NOT prevent chlorine from 'activating' bromide to bromine. Jock Hamilton, who started United Chemical, created an entire line of chemicals based on the fact that over-stabilized chlorine (CYA > 100 ppm) DOES 'activate' bromide.

2. Likely, you've gotten this info from the same source that sold you on the idea that bromine is a useful sanitizer for outdoor pools? This should give you a clue about their 'expertise'.

3. The *only* reason that bromine is sold for regular use on outdoor pools, is that it made certain companies more money than chlorine would have. It is a weaker sanitizer. It cannot be stabilized, so loss rates under full sun are horrendous. And, it is much more expensive. Outdoors, it is not better than chlorine in any respect. (There is some justification for using of bromide, as a 'rescue' for over-stabilized pools. It's just that it's a better and cheaper solution to simply get an FAS-DPD test kit, and raise chlorine levels appropriately to compensate! But, FAS-DPD testing didn't exist when Jock Hamilton started United.)

4. Most 'bromine' used on outdoor pools arrives as white tablets or sticks made of "BCDMH" -- bromo-chloro-dimethyl-hydantoin. You may notice the "chloro" bit? Bromine is too expensive to sell, even with the aggressive marketing campaigns that have been employed. So, to cut costs 1/2 of the 'sanitizing' effect of your "bromine" comes from chlorine!

5. Now, after you've used BCDMH, you've built up a substantial bromide residual. The reason is, when bromine is used up, it (mostly) turns into bromide. Likewise, when chlorine is used up, it (mostly) turns into chloride (salt!). So, after a while, the chlorine in the BCDMH instantly reacts with the bromide, converting it to bromine. In the process, the chlorine becomes chloride.

6. What your profit-seeking BCDMH sales predators won't tell you is, at that point, you no longer need any bromine, to have a brominated pool! The reason is that you can now brominate your pool simply by adding chlorine -- in any form -- and it will convert bromide to bromine. In other words, you no longer need to by half-n-half BCDMH; you can simply use a product that is only chlorine. . . . like PLAIN 8.25% household bleach.

7. Your local sales predator, will be horrified, and may tell you that you'll no longer have bromine. So, ask him this: how would he know? Because there is NO field test (or pool store test) that can tell the difference between chlorine and bromine. You put 1 ppm chlorine into water and test it with a chlorine test kit -- it will show 1 ppm. Test it with a bromine test kit, and it will show 2.25 ppm Conversely, if you put 2.25 ppm of bromine into water, and test with a bromine kit, you'll find 2.25 ppm. (Surprise!) But if you test it with a chlorine test kit . . . . you'll find 1 ppm chlorine. I could explain why, but I'd have to talk about relative molecular weights and ppm vs molarity. That's not stuff most people want to hear about.

8. There are likely two reasons why you "can't maintain a bromine residual".
(a) Your chlorine demand is up, possibly because of more swimmers, but more likely because of algae.
(b) You are finally getting some sunshine and, unlike chlorine, bromine can't be stabilized!

The problem could be (a) or (b) or both. Regardless, the solution is to add more chlorine till
(a) the algae is gone, and
(b) you are keeping up with the sunshine.

FormerBromineUser

08-14-2013, 02:06 AM

Wow...... That's an amazing reply! Thank you so much for taking the time, energy, and thoughtfulness to put it together.

You are right about having a chlorine demand, I do, and there are details below if you're interested in how broke I am trying to fix it. :-)

I will try to find somewhere that will sell me a trunk-load of regular household bleach. My pool guys say that I have to add the demand-dose all at once or it's a waste as small doses will be ineffective. Is this true? How do I decide how much bleach to use?

Just for background, I have around a 30,000 gallon vinyl-liner pool. I had perfect sanitizer readings between 2-5 from opening through all summer adding 6oz of metal magnet, 6 oz algaecide, 6 oz clarifier, and 3 lbs of oxy-sheen each week.....until two things happened three weeks ago. One, my automatic pool cover broke so the pool is exposed to the sun and two, I left town for a long weekend. When I returned, my sanitizer readings were zero.

I have hardly had ANY swimmers this summer due to our cold temperatures. All were adults except for a total of 10 hours by some pee-respectful 12 year olds. (No ammonia shows on pool sample tests). My algacide levels are so high that the store recommended I stop regular maintenance for a while; same thing with my sequest (metal magnet). And yes, we have checked the sand and filtration. The water is clear and looks perfect except it doesn't have that sparkly shimmer when the water is absolutely perfect.

So according to what you said, the problem may very well be a combination of sun and algae. If it's algae, then with my algaecide levels so high and the amount of chlorine I have already put in, it must be an invisible and indestructible algae!!!

Now want to hear about what a money-maker I have been for my pool store? In their defense, they told me the bit about how testing for chlorine/bromine (sanitizer) works as well as the bit about the presence of chlorine in the bromine tabs. Also, when they built the pool, I was the one who asked to use bromine as my son used to get rashes and huge rings around his eyes whenever he was in chlorine pools and our doctor said it was an allergic reaction. Anyway, here's my life for the last three weeks:

-First we used 12 plus lbs of Burn-out 35. Back to zero within 3 days.
-Then we used 24 lbs of Burn-out 3. Back to zero within a few days.
-They did a chlorine demand test which called for 54 lbs of Burn-out. I used 64 lbs. Sixty-four! Back to zero.
-Another demand test still called for over 50 lbs of Burn-out. We used 40 gallons of their liquid chlorine (around 12% or something). Back to zero with the same demand.
-Then they GAVE me 20 gallons of liquid. Back to zero with same demand.
-Then they ran a phosphate test with results of almost 1000. I used Bioguard's pool tonic (also on the house). Still almost 1000.
-Then I used SeaKlear's phosphate remover that was supposed to be stronger and cost around 50 bucks! You guessed it, still 1000 and my chlorine demand remains.
-The Bioguard rep was in today from Atlanta and he called his chemical guru who said the bit about cya and recommended draining the pool about two feet hoping to get the cya below 25 and then re-running the chlorine demand test.

chem geek

08-14-2013, 12:10 PM

It sounds to me like you had a bacterial conversion of CYA into ammonia when the bromine level went to zero. Did you notice the CYA level drop from before you left until after you came back and noticed the zero bromine level? That can create a huge oxidizer demand. For every 10 ppm CYA drop, it creates a nearly 30 ppm FC chlorine demand. The following is what you added in FC for a 30,000 gallon pool:

12 pounds of Burn-out 35 (Lithium Hypochlorite with 35% Available Chlorine): 17 ppm FC
24 pounds of Burn-out 3 (57.8% Cal-Hypo): 55 ppm FC
64 pound of Burn-out (you didn't say which type was used -- I'll assume it was 35 so lithium hypochlorite): 89 ppm FC
40 gallons of 12.5% chlorinating liquid: 160 ppm FC
20 gallons of 12.5% chlorinating liquid: 80 ppm FC

So that is a total cumulative demand of around 400 ppm FC. Such a demand can come from bacterial conversion of 133 ppm CYA into ammonia. Was your CYA high before you left? You said it was 35 ppm, but how did you know it's level? If you used Dichlor to activate your bromine then the CYA level can get very high because for every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.

See Degradation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) (http://www.troublefreepool.com/degradation-of-cyanuric-acid-cya-t8880.html) for technical details and It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia (http://www.troublefreepool.com/it-can-happen-to-anyone-zero-chlorine-cya-ammonia-t10974.html) for my personal experience with this phenomenon. Did anyone bother to do an ammonia test? If your bromine level is still zero, you can get an inexpensive ammonia test kit from a fish/aquarium/pet store since that would help to confirm the problem and also give you an idea of how much more oxidizer you are going to need, though a properly-done demand test would tell you that (it sounds like they didn't do their demand tests properly).

I also assume they aren't doing something stupid like raising the bromine level so high as to bleach out their DPD tests and then thinking that there isn't any bromine in the pool when there is actually too much bromine in the pool. Do you have an OTO chlorine/bromine test you can use for confirmation?

FormerBromineUser

08-14-2013, 01:51 PM

My, my. I was hoping for a chemist but now I'm a little embarrassed... I have almost no idea what you're talking about!

I will try to respond in the same order that you wrote. First, they haven't checked for CYA until the other day as it is their standard practice not to check CYA for bromine pools. I have not added any stabilizer since last year when a new employee had me use Super Soluble.

The store has checked my ammonia levels all summer and have only once found a small amount. It was gone within a few days. They have never given me any numbers but they always say "no ammonia".

The 64 lb treatment was Burn-out 3.

To my knowledge I have never used anything called Dichlor except that it was in the Super Soluble that I used last year as: "Sodium dichloro-s-triainetrione dihydrate"

I have no reason to doubt their ammonia tests as they always seem a bit confused that I don't have any. I think it would help things out if I did....

Why do you think the demand tests were done improperly? Because the demand wasn't met?

And as to raising bromine levels, to my knowledge, the only thing I do that adds bromine are the tabs. I have my Pentair in-line feeder set at 5 which is the highest level it goes and I top it off every 4 days or so and in the last three weeks, every other day.

No, I do not have an OTO kit. I use Aquacheck bromine strips at home. As the pool store is only 5 miles from me, it is convenient to just have them test on their ALEX system.

I am much comforted that PoolDoc and Chem_Geek are responding. I feel like I have the big guns in my corner. :-)

BigDave

08-15-2013, 01:01 PM

No ammonia and lots and lots and lots of chlorine. I think Chem Geek's onto something. Please pick up an OTO drops kit and test the pool water. Tell us what color you see.

FormerBromineUser

08-15-2013, 10:41 PM

Thank you for your help, BigDave! I had hoped I would hear again from Chem_Geek as I ASSUMED that he didn't notice (in my long diatribe) that my pool store said I don't have an ammonia issue or that I never added stabilizer this year so I couldn't be converting CYA to ammonia. Maybe he was saying I DO have ammonia but that the heavy chlorine doses are knocking it out by the time it's tested? I am SO confused!!!! I will go get my own ammonia kit from a pet store but so far I can't seem to find an OTO kit. If I don't find one tomorrow, I will get one on-line and if so, results may take awhile.

PoolDoc

08-15-2013, 10:46 PM

I don't think it really matters that much, whether it's ammonia, bromide, or algae: in all three cases, the solution is consistent chlorinination + sunlight.

It would help if you get a Taylor K2006 from Amazon and test your pool's water with it. That information would enable more specific recommendations. There's a testkit info page linked in my blue signature block, below.

For what it's worth: your doctor is mistaken; there's apparently no such thing a a chlorine allergy. "Bleach baths" (50 - 100 ppm chlorine) are used by dermatologists -- even pediatric dermatologists -- to TREAT allergic skin conditions. Google for "bleach bath" if you want to check this out.

On there other hand, there ARE confirmed dermatological (not necessarily allergic) reactions to both monochloramine (produced when using Yellow OUT) and DMH (dimethyl hydantoin) which is used as the chemical 'binder' in bromine tablets.

I'm not saying your son didn't have a reaction; just that it wasn't from chlorine. Badly managed pools, of which there are many, tend to have high levels of complex chloramines, which can be very irritating. We had a very extensive discussion on this topic last year. I can dig that up, if you like. Or, you can just ask your doctor to point you to the "journal article that reported on allergic reactions to chlorine" -- if he actually has one, it's something several of us would very much like to see.

But what we've found is that such reports seem to originate with non-specialists, who don't know as much about pool chlorine chemistry as you do.

BigDave

08-16-2013, 08:29 AM

... I will go get my own ammonia kit from a pet store but so far I can't seem to find an OTO kit. If I don't find one tomorrow, I will get one on-line and if so, results may take awhile.
No need to get an OTO test online (but do order a K-2006). OTO is available almost anywhere pool stuff is sold. It's the yellow drops in the Red/Yellow drops kits - Pools store, wall mart, Home Depot, etc.

What Chem Geek was suggesting and I was seconding was that you might have extremely high chlorine level. So high that the chlorine / bromine tests are getting bleached out. OTO doesn't bleach out and will read yellow to orange to brown as chlorine / bromine concentration gets very high.

By Chem Geek's estimate, you've added about 460ppm chlorine to your pool. That's quite alot. If the CYA wasn't greater than 100 then there wasn't enough to become the chlorine demand you're seeing through conversion to ammonia.

You really need a definitive test (OTO) for extremely high chlorine.

FormerBromineUser

08-16-2013, 10:46 PM

Thanks, guys, so, SO much. I was really hoping to have a sanitized pool by my party on Sunday but I'm sol on that.... I can still see the main drain clearly but the intervening water is getting grayer and grayer. Less than 48 hours to go and counting!

Based on Ben's suggestion early on, I have added nine 3.78 quart bottles of Clorox (8.25%) at night. In the morning, my strips are off the chart (>20 dark green) for chlorine but by afternoon, zero. That's why I don't understand this: "What Chem Geek was suggesting and I was seconding was that you might have extremely high chlorine level. So high that the chlorine / bromine tests are getting bleached out." Why would I get readings after adding beach? I am so confused. Also, after I add chlorine, I can smell it. When I can't, the strips read zero. I think the sunlight is stealing everything I pour in. In the past when I accidentally let my tabs get low, I super-chlorinated and the pool bounced back so that I only used bromine tabs and oxy-sheen oxidizer; no straight chlorine. The bromine tabs seemed to survive the sun but then again, the auto-cover worked and I closed it when the pool was not in use.

You all know so much more than I do. To me, the following is incomprehensible: " If the CYA wasn't greater than 100 then there wasn't enough to become the chlorine demand you're seeing through conversion to ammonia." My mind keeps saying that I don't have ammonia so what the heck are they talking about. Btw, I checked my local HomeDepot, Walmart, Target.... Not one had OTO kits, just refills. It's just as well as now I will just get the Taylor K2006.

Ben, I wanted to let you know that years ago I realized that my son's doctor was wrong. I had only mentioned the issue in order to accept responsibility for the bromine vs. chlorine decision when we built our pool back in '05. My pool guys are not perfect but the bromine call was mine, not theirs... Also, I read how you receive a commission from amazon by folks linking through you. I have already bookmarked your link as my way onto amazon's site. I only spend about a thou at amazon each year but I hope my part helps. I appreciate all you have done for me and all the many, many people on poolforum. What a great service you all provide.

chem geek

08-17-2013, 01:31 AM

So the fact that your strips were off the chart after adding the chlorine but then it was all gone by the afternoon may indicate something in the water with a huge chlorine demand still present. Next time you do this, add the chlorine at night after the sun is down, measure it within 30 minutes (with the pump running), keep the pump running overnight and measure the chlorine/bromine in the morning. That will eliminate the possibility of it going away from sunlight due to a lack of CYA (though the measurements showed some CYA, but I don't trust test strips, especially not for CYA).

As for previously having a high CYA level before this problem started, I think that very likely if you were using

Super Soluble that I used last year as: "Sodium dichloro-s-triainetrione dihydrate"
since that is Dichlor where for every 10 ppm FC that you added, it also increased CYA by 9 ppm. So unless you had a lot of water dilution, your CYA may indeed have been very high. And as I noted, you roughly triple the CYA level that dropped to get the FC chlorine demand that could result if bacteria converted the CYA into ammonia. I'm not sure if I trust the pool store with their ammonia test, though as Ben says it doesn't really matter what the source of the demand is, eventually you can get through it with enough chlorine. I'm just concerned that it could still be an awful lot left to go. What's the volume of your pool? Perhaps it would have been easier and cheaper to replace most of the water instead.

You could do a bucket test to get an idea for the chlorine demand left in your pool -- presumably that is what the pool store was doing with their "chlorine demand test", but perhaps they weren't doing it correctly. In 2 gallons of pool water, every 1/4 teaspoon of 6% bleach will be 10 ppm FC so you can see how much of this you have to add before you register chlorine/bromine that doesn't go away.

PoolDoc

08-17-2013, 08:48 AM

A couple of quick comments:

1. Get the refill kit; use the OTO in a small bottle or tube. The colors you'll be seeing aren't on the test block anyhow. When you order the K2006, order an OTO kit, too. They are useful, and cheaper for a quick test, than the K2006.

2. Keep your pH high; that will minimize the smell. Also, do test the water with the local OTO, BEFORE anyone swims. Notice whether there's much color change between the color 5 seconds after adding and mixing, and 1 minute later. If so, do NOT swim. The change indicates high chloramine levels that will be very irritating. Especially, do not let your son in the pool.

3. Tell us how long you've used bromine -- has it been since 2005? If so, you're probably going to need to plan a water change (NOT: drain -- you can't drain a vinyl pool) to remove the accumulated DMH.). But I need to check -- for all I know, it's possible that DMH can be biodegraded to ammonia in a manner analogous to what happens to cyanuric acid. If so, it may be gone. But, I don't know how to test for that.

4. You may want to look at this, about contact dermatitis due to DMH: http://www.postermedic.com/parcdesalutmar/postimas105237/pdfbaja/postimas105237.pdf

FormerBromineUser

08-17-2013, 03:11 PM

Thanks again, guys. Here are some comments/answers in the order they appear above:

CHEM_GEEK: I add chlorine at late dusk (so I can still see). My pump runs 24/7 from Spring open to Fall close. I will check 30 minutes after adding my next dose, but in the past, when I measure in the morning, my test strips are >20. The stronger the dose of chlorine, the longer it takes to get back to zero but it eventually does within a few days. I don't know what you mean by "eliminate the possibility it going away from sunlight due to lack of CYA" but those are my results.

I checked with the pool store and they DID use a lot of dichlor last year, more than I thought. I used only one bottle of Super Soluble but THEY added (at their expense) a bunch of Super Soluble last year. Because it was a freebie, there is no record of the quantity but I remember it was at least 50 lbs. and could have been as much as 70. Since last year there has been no addition of products containing dichlor.

I added an avator of my pool as it is today. Not that it helps as the picture is so small. I took the picture from my second floor and from there I can still see the main drain. My pool is around 30,000 gallons. The Bioguard rep suggested replacing 2 feet of water to get my CYA down to under 25 and then retest the chlorine demand which is when I began this thread in the first place. I never did the draining, but I did add about an inch and a half of water since then.

I will try the bucket test after the party tomorrow. Then I will know how much chlorine to add. If this assumption is incorrect, please let me know.

POOLDOC: Last night I took a pool sample in to the pool store to test pH. (I am not a good judge of that color spectrum). They said it was at 7.8. I added between 1/5-1/4 gallon of muriatic acid.

I ran an OTO test today. Light, light yellow. The color did NOT change at all after one minute.

I have been using bromine since it was built in 2005.

I ran my own ammonia test today. It was very yellow and so no ammonia.

Thanks for the link about contact dermatitis. It was very interesting and explains why my nephew gets a rash in my pool! He now takes a shower after each swim which takes care of the problem.

FormerBromineUser

08-25-2013, 04:28 PM

Hello, there. I am not sure that anyone of you guys are still following this thread, but I wanted you to know that the pool stayed clear up until my big party! It is now grey, no chlorine by afternoon, but I am at least putting bleach in every night, kind of like throwing money in the pool but maybe I will keep something at bay. We have decided to keep the pool at this level for as long as we can instead of trying to meet our chlorine demand which according to the bucket test you suggested is still astronomical. We will use it as long as we can, checking for PH and CC and stuff so it is "safe" to swim.

We have also made a huge decision to get a new liner. We have some serious "snakes" from when we had a drainage issue and water got under our liner. Our plan is to do this in the April next year. I am thinking about going to the BBB method BUT, I cannot find a start to finish explanation of how to go about doing it. There are bits and pieces of information here and there, but I can't find a complete step-by-step "how-to" guide. I have read and reread the BBB Method page and I don't feel confident that I really know what I am supposed to do.

I also have the following fears:
1.) The only directions I have read for starting out with ALL NEW water requires hourly maintenance until the chemicals are in balance. I can't do that as I work a heavy schedule until the end of May. Is there any alternative?
2.) We do travel during the summer. I have seen that some people use tablets for a long weekend. Still scary. If we go away for a week, I guess I would have to find someone to take care of it that knows BBB and I have no idea how to find anyone!
3.) We also are sometimes spontaneous about night activities and don't get home until late once in a while. It seems like BBB has to be done EVERY night after sundown. I'm just not sure I can in reality keep that up.
4.) Coming from 9 years of bromine use, I am still having difficulty understanding the relationships between CC, PH, CYA, TA, etc. I really have read and read posts about this but it is still foreign to me. I have not really every had to worry about more than bromine/chlorine levels and PH.

Considering all these fears, what do you guys think about me going to BBB?

Thanks. If I don't hear from any of you, I will try to re-post this somewhere else. Thanks in advance!

Reminder: 30,000 gallon in ground vinyl liner pool

chem geek

08-25-2013, 07:37 PM

If you use a mostly opaque pool cover, then the loss of chlorine from sunlight is virtually eliminated and you can add chlorine a lot less frequently. That's what we have, a mostly opaque electric safety cover, so I only add chlorine twice a week. Even those with bubble-type covers usually don't have to add chlorine every day, but rather every other day. Nevertheless, adding chlorine every day (or two) is just a quick and easy task. If you want automation, then you can look at getting a saltwater chlorine generator or using The Liquidator or getting a peristaltic pump. I think the bigger issue for you in terms of maintenance will be the weight of chlorinating liquid or bleach you have to carry to maintain your larger 30,000 gallon pool. If it uses 2 ppm FC per day, then that's 3.4 gallons of 12.5% chlorinating liquid or around 31 pounds per week. With 8.25% bleach, it's around 43 pounds per week.

As for CH, pH and TA, you don't have to worry about these so much in a vinyl liner pool -- regardless of whether you use bromine or chlorine. It's only a problem if you water is hard (CH and/or TA very high) as that can cause scaling. With a vinyl liner, you don't need to worry about the CH if it's low. Once you get your TA to a typically lower level (usually around 80 ppm) where the pH is relatively stable, then you don't need to worry about it.

The only real "extra" chemistry with chlorine is the CYA level. The CC is hardly ever an issue and is almost always low -- mine is nearly always <= 0.2 ppm, the lowest measurable using a 25 ml water sample.

As for startup with a fresh water fill, I don't think it takes hourly maintenance. That is probably referring to new plaster where in the beginning the water chemistry changes quickly as the plaster cures, but for a fresh water fill in an existing pool you can balance everything in one shot and not need to stick around.

FormerBromineUser

04-22-2014, 01:15 PM

Nervous, nervous nervous! New liner, dark auto-cover, and water going in today! ...and I will no longer be a "BromineUser". Worked VERY hard last fall to learn BBT method (with my bromine pool) and ended up after tons of chlorine, having a beautiful pool. Wanted to say hi as you will be hearing from me soon! I am so nervous!

PoolDoc

04-22-2014, 01:24 PM

Good luck!

If you haven't already, make sure to order a K2006 test kit or whatever refills you need (link to info page in my blue signature box). Especially when you are new to BBB pool care, accurate testing is essential. Test strips are never very accurate, but the accuracy of strip testing for CYA is abysmally poor.

FormerBromineUser

04-22-2014, 01:31 PM

I have to K2006 from last fall so I think the reagents should still be usable. I plan on testing everything as soon as the water is delivered. 4 truckloads from a local water tower, but I'm not sure which one. Thanks, Ben! I just made my signature. So exciting!

Watermom

04-22-2014, 02:45 PM

Maybe Ben can change your username to "FormerBromineUser." You'll be really glad you made the switch!

FormerBromineUser

04-22-2014, 06:48 PM

test

PoolDoc

04-22-2014, 06:49 PM

testing what?

FormerBromineUser

04-22-2014, 06:52 PM

This site wouldn't let me reply but I've figured it out. Will recompose my questions.

FormerBromineUser

04-22-2014, 07:00 PM

WaterMom, great suggestion!!!

Already I have a question. Arg! Thought I'd have my K2006 out already...but:

The pool guys told me that they are not installing my new pump until Thursday or Friday so my new water will sit until then. I told them that I was nervous about that because I am leaving town on Friday and won't return until Monday morning and that I didn't want to come home to a green pool! They told me not to worry because they include start-up chemicals when they do a new liner and water..... Surprise!
They use BioGuard products and my best guess as to what they will use are:
1.) Super Soluble, Burn Out 3, or Burn Out 35 for chlorine
2.) Pool Magnet for metals
3.) Algae All 60

Should I tell them no? Should I say yes to some and not to others?

FormerBromineUser

04-23-2014, 08:19 PM

http://youtu.be/KT2fLvZYkcE
In a panic here....See post above for details. My new water is looking bad. It is brown-tinted from what I think is iron. The water is all well water either from my hose (with MetalTrap attached) or from municipal wells. I have researched the Metals forum and can't seem to find answers. I know the pool guys will dump a ton of Pool Magnet into it tomorrow if I don't tell them no.

BigDave

04-24-2014, 09:32 AM

Don't Panic!

Do the Bucket test for metals (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/16946-Bucket-test-for-metals) to verify metal in the water. What does the inside of the toilet tank look like?

Bioguard's Metal Magnet Plus is (according to MSDS) 36% HEDP and 1.8% Phosphorous acid. HEDP is a recommended sequestrant and should help get metal in suspension. I'd let 'em put it, hopefully it will clear the water.

You may want to put trichlor tabs in the skimmer - couple reasons. 1) You need chlorine and CYA in the new water. 2) The tabs dissolving in the skimmer will raise chlorine and lower pH in the water before the filter encouraging the metals to drop out of suspension onto the filter. You can do this because you have a sand filter and run the pump 24/7. If you do choose this startup, don't let them put the dichlor (Super Soluble) in the pool.

It may also be a bad idea to put a lot of chlorine (Burn Outs) in the pool if there are metals in the water - it could cause metal staining on your new liner.

The Algae All 60 is Polyquat 60% (from MSDS) which is the only algaecide recommended here. It will help keep algae from getting a foothold while you're starting up. Especially a low chlorine start you'll need if you do have metals.

Please consider any warranty requirements before deviating from their plan.

Take a full set of readings (except CYA) on your new fill water and let us know.

Congrats on the new liner - Good Luck.

PoolDoc

04-24-2014, 10:09 AM

@BigDave: Thanks!

@BromineUser:

1. Do not chlorinate.
2. Do use HEPD *AND* polyquat. There's nothing special about BioGuard chemicals, except the labels & pricing. Check these at Amazon if you need more.

Kem-Tek 311-6 Pool and Spa 60-Percent Concentrated Algaecide, 1 Quart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/scouscho-20)
Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/scouscho-20)
3. Keep the pH below 7.6
4. Brush daily; operate the filter 24/7.

What kind of filter do you have? If a sand filter, get a bag of DE powder, and add 2 cups of DE daily to the skimmer. Watch your pressure and backwash on a 5 psi increase. Do NOT add DE to a cartridge filter!

FormerBromineUser

04-24-2014, 09:32 PM

Thanks SO much for the replies! I am much comforted knowing you are there. I updated my signature with new info, btw. Toilet tank: slimy, orange bacteria but no dark red stains.... but 24K of the new water was trucked in from water towers so my MetalTrap well-water contribution was diluted.

So.... they installed the auto-cover and pump today. No chemicals were added. They want me to bring in a sample to test after the water circulated for a bit and I will do that tomorrow. I will post results if they differ significantly from mine.

Here are my test results from tonight:

PH: (I am TERRIBLE at judging red/pink tones so I ran it twice)
PH1: 7.8-7.9 (my husband said 8 but he must be worse than me cause, NO WAY)
PH2: 7.8
Acid Demand Test: 2 drops R-0005 brought it to 7.4 (and I do have a gallon of 31.45% Muriatic Acid leftover from last season)
TA: 260-280 (26 was clearish, 27 faint pink, 28 light pink... again, not so accurate on pink tones)
CH: 130
AM: it was a neon-green chartruse, I think maybe almost a 0.5 but not really a match
FC: Obviously 0 (I checked it out of curiosity as one truckload of water came from Chicago city water which is chlorinated)

If I don't hear from you tonight, I may add a half gallon of MA in the morning. I am leaving town Friday afternoon until Monday morning so I am not going to even try to figure out how to get DE for my filter until then. It's too dangerous to leave a potential backwash problem on my dog-sitter! A bucket test for metals will have to wait too. Still gotta pack! (Headed to Virginia to watch my son compete in the ODAC tennis semi-finals. Go Bridgewater College!) ...Sorry, I am psyched and a proud Mom.

Thanks again, guys. I do use Ben's Amazon link for my purchases there but if there's any other way I can repay you for the advice and peace of mind you give me, please let me know.

PoolDoc

04-24-2014, 10:21 PM

Go ahead and add the acid.

As far as the polyquat and HEDP go -- get what you need NOW, locally. Don't wait. Use Amazon for additional purchases.

I've been testing the API tests, and other aquarium tests. So far, tests from different companies don't produce the same results, so I'm going to need to buy a Taylor ammonia kit ($$) to find out if any of the aquarium tests are trustworthy.

As far as pH goes, you may need to use a meter. I don't recommend it, unless is necessary, since meters are both more expensive and more complicated. But if you can't distinguish oranges and pinks, a meter is your only option. See this thread:
Do I Need a pH Meter? (Am I Color Blind?) (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/15322)

FormerBromineUser

04-25-2014, 03:04 PM

Okay. I added about 2/3G of MA last night. I just took my pool sample in. Their results:
pH: 7.7
TA: 232
Adj TA: 232
Total Hardness: 174

They had me put in 3 qts of Pool Magnet Plus. There are NO ingredients listed on the bottle. I hope it's the same as Dave's description of Metal Magnet Plus.
They wanted me to put in 24 oz of Smart Algacide. I said no to the Smart Algacide because it's like 60% copper or something and I read somewhere on forum NOT to use copper. I asked for the Algae All 60 but they said that they no longer carry it. Instead they gave me Inhibit Back-up which is:
30% Alkyl (C14, 95% C12 3%, C18 2%) dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride, and
10% Alkyl (C12, 61% C14 23%, C16 11%, C8&C10 2.5%, C18 2.5%) dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride
60% Other
There is no mention of anything sounding like "polyquat".
They also said these additions would lower my pH so not to add more MA for now.
I am off for the weekend so we will see how it is on Monday but I will check in to see if you have responded with any comments.
Thanks!

BigDave

04-25-2014, 03:56 PM

I'm sorry Pool Magnet is the MSDS I looked up.

PoolDoc

04-25-2014, 03:56 PM

In 2002, Pool Magnet Plus was 36% HEDP -- could have changed, however.

Do NOT use the algaecide; it's useless. Check Walmart, Lowes, and Home Depot for polyquat. See this page: http://poolsolutions.com/polyquat.html

FormerBromineUser

04-25-2014, 04:00 PM

Arg. I already put in one quart of that Bioguard algaecide. Is it just useless or have I done something harmful?
Ran quick to Leslie's and got a polyquat 60%. Off to catch my plane!

Watermom

04-25-2014, 04:35 PM

Some algaecides cause foaming issues in pools.

It is generally best to not try and combine chemistry advice from a local pool store and from here. It will often conflict and you can end up with a mess in your pool. Best to pick one or the other to take the advice from. Hope that makes sense! :)

FormerBromineUser

04-25-2014, 04:39 PM

Yes, it does make sense, but Dave and Ben said to go ahead with their products for today but the pool store did the old switcharoo on algaecides. At least I didn't use the copper one! I AM trusting the forum. Absolutely! Thanks!

Watermom

04-25-2014, 04:48 PM

At least I didn't use the copper one!

That was a GREAT decision! You definitely don't want copper in your pool! :eek:

FormerBromineUser

04-30-2014, 04:24 PM

My water is now clear and no longer brown-tinged! The pool store is done now with the "complimentary" chemicals. They had me add one more quart of Pool Magnet Plus and they say it's time to add: 25 lbs of chlorine (they did a chlorine demand test). The chemicals I have added to my new water are: 2/3G of MA, 4 quarts of Pool Magnet Plus, 1 quart of Inhibit Back-up (chemical composition on page 3) and 1 quart of 60% polyquat.
What I need to know is what YOU say I should do next. Also, I do plan on adding borates whenever you say it's time.
My numbers are:
pH 7.4 (7.3+)
TA 180 (Alex test says 180, Leslie's test says 150-160)
CH 100 (Alex test says Tot. Hardness 164, Leslie's test says CH 130)
Thanks!

PoolDoc

04-30-2014, 05:12 PM

Do *NOT* dump 25# of chlorine in there -- it will 'break' some, if not all of the HEDP, and could drop any metals out on your liner. Do *NOT* raise the pH (add borates) yet.

Have you used the polyquat? Can you get more? Can you get DE locally? Can you easily get calcium hypochlorite locally for a reasonable price (< $4/lb)?

(By the way, thanks for the comparison test results -- that's very helpful info for us. If you can, once you begin adding CYA, and do CYA testing, I'd love to see a comparison on those test results.)

FormerBromineUser

04-30-2014, 05:57 PM

Thanks, Ben.
I used 32 oz of polyquat last Friday that I paid $30 for at Leslie's. In-The-Swim is about 25 minutes away in West Chicago, IL and they sell quarts of polyquat for $23.00. So yes, I can get more polyquat locally that is cheaper than Leslie's.
Home Depot has 25# bags of DE for $20.00. Should I get some and add 2 cups per day?
Calcium hypochlorite appears in lots of "bag-o'-shock" products. Is that what you mean? If so, I wouldn't know how to chose from one bag to the next. Is there a specific chemical composition that I should look for?
All I have on hand in terms of chemicals are a 50# bucket of 99% dichlor from Sam's Club and a few gallons of 12.5% bleach. I don't plan on adding CYA, borates, or anything else until you tell me to!
Randy

PoolDoc

04-30-2014, 06:25 PM

I included links to all three products, but it looks like the polyquat might be the only one you want to buy from Amazon.

Kem-Tek 60% polyquat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/scouscho-20) @ Amazon
Nava 60% polyquat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BFV4EQ/scouscho-20) @ Amazon

In the Swim 12 x 1# cal hypo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WKQ3IE/scouscho-20)

Diatomaceous Earth (DE) pool filter powder, 25lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WKK6WI/scouscho-20/)

PoolDoc

04-30-2014, 06:31 PM

Yes, get some polyquat -- maybe 4 quarts -- and the DE. You may not need all the polyquat, but it will keep indefinitely, so long as sunlight doesn't damage the bottles. And it's safe and non-corrosive.

Add the DE and let it run overnight. Then begin dosing with small amounts of dichlor -- 2 ppm on your pool would be just under 1 pound, or about 1 pint dry measure each evening. Make SURE there are no other chemicals in the system -- tabs, feeders, injectors, etc -- and then add the dichlor directly to the skimmer, while the pump is running.

Test chlorine levels the following AM and in the PM, before adding another dose. Report your results. Also, notice the COLOR of the backwash water the first time you backwash.

FormerBromineUser

04-30-2014, 09:06 PM

Thanks! I bought 4 quarts of polyquat on Amazon. I hope the link you gave me went through the forum!
I vacuumed the pool to get rid of the auto-cover installation crud and backwashed before putting in DE. The backwash water was dark burnt-orange. Yuck.
Should I add more DE tomorrow night? How do I know when to stop adding it daily?
I will report chlorine results Friday morning.
BTW, thanks for cleaning up my signature. Much better!

PoolDoc

04-30-2014, 09:49 PM

Orange backwash = iron in the water

Wonder how that got there? Am I forgetting something from earlier: are you using well water or other iron contaminated fill water?

DE + polyquat + continuous filtration + backwash as needed + gradually chlorination = probably the best way to remove the iron.

FormerBromineUser

05-01-2014, 12:32 AM

We used our well water for part of it; 1 tanker load of Chicago water and 3 tanker loads of municipal well water from a local water tower. You could see the brown tinge in the water as it was filling. Sent a video of the steps and pool on page 3 of thread. The white steps in the beginning showed the color. 4 quarts of HEDP probably didn't hurt.....

FormerBromineUser

05-01-2014, 09:37 PM

I am proceeding with the plan, but I have a question that I don't want to confuse with tomorrow's test report. My pressure reading tonight after last night's backwash and addition of 2C DE had only gone up 3-1/2 psi. Not wanting to risk backwashing out any of my first 2C dichlor addition and confuse my results, I decided to first add the nightly 2C of DE and let it sit for a bit just in case the psi went up. 45 minutes later, my PSI had risen to 30! Could the DE have acted THAT quickly? The filter was also leaking at the top. I did a backwash and I am now down to 20-1/2. The backwash water seemed clear or maybe light grey although it was getting dark so it was hard to tell. It was definitely not dark orange like last night. I did NOT add more DE after backwashing, just the 2C dichlor.