Bromine Chemistry Question

[PoolDoc]

Arg-h. No wonder.

My wife, who is a elementary resource teacher (she teaches the ones who are about to fail the standardized test!), can barely access the internet from school. They have the most awkward, cumbersome system I've ever seen. It just got worse, since some kids were able to bring up porn on a number of monitors, recently.

I'm NOT going to worry about the fact that pool9.net is blocked on some school site. Typically those blocks are set to block everything by default and then allow by selection.

[FormerBromineUser]

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The link works from home just fine.

Anyway, may I send you a picture tomorrow? I now have a question about what looks like iron stains on my stairs. They appeared after a huge rain last night. I still had my pool uncovered through most of the deluge. The water is also looking dull. It also looks slightly tinted but that's when I'm looking towards the stairs and that could be a reflection...?

[FormerBromineUser]

After waiting 3 days (after a TA reading < 150 ppm), retest both pH and TA, and report results here. Do NOT test either pH or TA during the 3 days you wait.

Okee-Doke! Test results tonight:
FC: 2.0
pH: 7.5
TA: 100-110 (did get a little more red with last drop but pretty red at 100)
CH: 60-70
CYA: almost there but I will retest in daylight

What do I do next?!?!

[FormerBromineUser]

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Thanks for the new handle!

Since I know you guys are busy, please just let me know if I am off base on my next step.

I am thinking that now that my TA is good, I should start using the calcium hypolchorite per instructions to try to reduce metals in the water. My water is dull looking and there is definitely an orange tinge on my stairs.

[PoolDoc]

If you ALREADY have staining, you may want to lift the stains, before using the cal hypo.

However, you can certainly use the cal hypo now, and then again, later.

That might even be best, since it seems to take more than one pass, to lift the stains and then get all the metals out of the water.

[FormerBromineUser]

922
Okay. Heading out now to test pH and add borax. The stains are very light. I think by "lifting stains" you mean sequestrate the metals, so I will buy some HEDP tomorrow. If I am wrong on this, just let me know. Otherwise, no need to respond.

[CarlD]

I actually like Atlanta, and the surrounding area. My son interned 2 summers at Georgia Tech and one of us would stay with him in Buckhead for a couple of weeks, then switch off with the other parent. We'd bring our younger one down during the changeover, or all stay there for a week together. Went out to Stone Mountain a couple of times. We didn't see anything like "Deliverance"!

[FormerBromineUser]

The sculpture at Stone Mountain is amazing. Borglum left it to go do Rushmore but in the details, I like Stone Mtn. better. You had a sweet deal being able to spend time with your son on his internships -most of us can't take that much time. I have spent time (and paddled) around the Chattooga river; it's a beautiful area as long as you don't start humming "Dueling Banjos"...!

[FormerBromineUser]

Miss the South....

[BigDave]

Most of the people I know in Illinois think they're in the south.

[PoolDoc]

. . . while those of us actually IN the South, suffer no such mental confusion! ;)

And, now, back to our regularly scheduled pool discussion:

Metal stain removal has 3 parts:

1. Dissolve the metal stain.
We usually recommend ascorbic acid; Jacks Magic uses sodium bisulfite I think, and there are other reducing agents or acids that work. Most these materials are incompatible with chlorine, and cannot co-exist.

2. Keep the now dissolved metals IN the water, as you rechlorinate. THAT is what HEDP does.

3. Remove the metals from the water. CuLater is the ONLY method we know of to remove the DISSOLVED metals. The other methods require that you 'un-dissolve' them, but 'aim' for the filter OR for a floc (like aluminum sulfate)

Before you buy HEDP, get some vitamin C tabs, and drop them on your steps. If it's iron, the tabs will clear a small spot. (Or, you can put a tablespoon full of Iron Out (sodium dithionite + sodium sulfite) there).

[FormerBromineUser]

I did both the Vitamin C and Iron Out and I immediately got white spots on my steps! Now what?

Also, I did a round of borax/cal-hypo last night and at some point I would like to talk about that before I do it again.

[FormerBromineUser]

Update: I went ahead and scoured the steps with ascorbic acid and they are white again! I realize the iron is still in the water. I should receive the CuLator and skimmer basket/liners early in the week and will begin that when they arrive. I also ordered the Lamotte borate test strips; I did not order HEDP. My current numbers are:
FC 1.5
CC 0
pH 7.6

The first time I did the borax/cal-hypo, I left the pH high for a day as the instructions didn't say to lower it again. I did a second dose last night and 2 hours afterward, I added MA. I didn't want to leave my pH so high. Not sure which way I am supposed to do it.

My plan is to do the CuLator and keep the FC 2 or less. Is that right? Do I continue with the cal-hypo or go back to dichlor?

Thanks so much and Go Blackhawks!

[PoolDoc]

1. With the metal in solution, you probably want a middle pH, 7.4 - 7.6.

2. Using the cal hypo in *small* doses, via the skimmer (NO FEEDER WITH TRICHLOR!!), can help bring the metal out, on the filter.

3. Don't allow cal hypo to contact the CuLator packs. You could add cal hypo when you clean the skimmers -- but take the Culator out first.

4. I'd put ALL my Culators in the water, maybe 1 or 2 in the skimmer(s) and any others suspended in near a return, or even resting on the main drain. Don't discard them unless they are discolored or gummed up.

[FormerBromineUser]

A2. ...Use borax to gradually raise your pH to 7.8, while continuing to chlorinate. Once your pH is 7.8, begin adding 1/2 lb doses of calcium hypochlorite DIRECTLY to your skimmer, while the pump is on. This 'shocks' the water in the line upstream of the filter, and tends to drop iron out ON your filter. Continuing to use DE during this process will also help pick up remaining iron. Make sure your pump is on 24/7
Okay, just to make sure I have this correct. I am supposed to lower my pH to 7.4-7.6 with MA after I do the above.

1.) Doses above is plural and I am pretty literal... How many doses of cal-hypo in a day? I have been doing one and so far I have not yet had to backwash.

2.) How long should I wait after adding dose(s) before adding the MA?

[PoolDoc]

Conflicting ideas.

+ CuLator removes the metal while it's dissolved = lower pH + HEDP

+ Cal hypo via the skimmer removes the metal onto the filter = higher pH

You can't really do both at the same time. If you've used the cal hypo and had some orange (iron) or green/blue (copper) backwash, that's worked. BUT removing metals seems to rarely be a 1-step process. If you've gotten some metals out with cal hypo, good. If you want to continue with it, that's fine, too.

Once you start with the CuLator, a lower pH would be better.

MA dosing => http://pool9.net/ma/

[FormerBromineUser]

My bad, then. I have reread this thread over and over, and think I have just asked too many questions and things got out of sequence. If I understand you correctly, the CuLators and HEDP are what I should be doing now. I never bought HEDP because I couldn't figure out what product to buy as Kem-Tek discontinued the product you were recommending last month. Is there another option?

[PoolDoc]

The link to the Pink Stuff at Amazon still works:


Kem-Tek 311-6 Pool and Spa 60-Percent Concentrated Algaecide, 1 Quart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/scouscho-20)
Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/scouscho-20)

But lets focus on basics first. You can use the CuLator regardless: if there is free metal in the water, the bags will capture some of it; if not, they will still work later. So:

1. Send me a set of *good* pictures of your current conditions. Please go for fully focused. When focusing through water, you may need to place something on the bottom for the camera to focus on -- a stainless steel fork will probably work. If using an iPad, send the pictures *full size* by sending from "Camera Roll*, one at a time, rather than from email. On my iPad3, you can also do it by inserting the pictures, and then going back to the top, tapping the CC line, and selecting the "Actual Size" option.

2. Do a set of tests on the pool, including CYA. It may help if you'll watch the Taylor videos: http://pool9.net/tk-guide http://pool9.net/tk-interfere

3. Go ahead and get the HEDP and the Culators -- but don't use them yet.

4. If you have any sign of algae, say so.

Lets's get your pool cleaned up, clear, and swimmable, and then see about next steps.

[FormerBromineUser]

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Thanks for responding. A comfort!

1.) I sent 13! pictures. I wasn't quite sure what a *set* of pictures was...

2.) Tests:
FC 1.5
CC 0
pH 7.6
TA 110
CH 90
CYA <30 but getting better

3.) Will order Jack's Pink Stuff today. The link I was referring to was the one for Kem-Tek HEDP that you gave to others. Thanks for the new link.

4.) I see no signs of algae and my pool sides are squeaky, not slimy.

For whatever it's worth, I also stopped by Leslie's. Don't worry, I didn't buy anything! I wanted to see if they had a sequestrant test (my BioGuard store claims to) and they said they didn't. However, they checked my iron levels which registered between 0.3-0.5ppm. I tried to leave, but they checked everything else too. I got the spiel about Natural Chemistry Metal Free and CuLators AND they said my phosphates were at least 1000 and I also needed a phosphate remover after I did the Metal Free and the CuLators... Geez. I forgot just how much I dislike pool stores! They also did a CYA test that had a sliding black dot and told me my CYA was at 20.

[PoolDoc]

Squeaky is GOOD, in vinyl sided pools. Sounds like you're on track.

[FormerBromineUser]

Just to make absolutely sure I STAY on track, my plan is:

1.) Keep pH between 7.4-7.6

2.) Keep FC between 1.5-2.0 with dichlor until CYA reaches 30

3.) Don't use the CuLators, HEDP, or Kem-Tek algaecide

4.) Don't dose with cal-hypo/borax

5.) Don't raise borates yet

When do I know it is time to use stuff in 3) & 4) ? You gave me directions for all of them but I really don't know WHEN to use them (other than no borates until I think there is not too much metal in the water) I just need clarification about timing ie. one reply says CuLators now, another says wait. Again, it is my fault that I got things so out of order, sorry.

[PoolDoc]

Do #1 & #2.

Go ahead and use the CuLator units -- it won't hurt them to do so, as long as they don't get goo-ey. Plus they act very slowly, so the more they are in the pool, the better.

Let's stick with that for the next week at least. Don't over-test CYA; you'll run out of reagent. Let me know if you see any staining occurring.

I'll try to get your pics posted tomorrow.

[FormerBromineUser]

Perfectly understood, thanks.
If no staining, talk to you next week.
Happy Memorial Day! No swimming for us with no heater. Boohoo.

[FormerBromineUser]

Made it through the week! I hope you had a great holiday weekend celebrating our veterans and being with family. I went to Virginia to pick up my son from college and on our way home we visited several historical sites including the Flight 93 Memorial. 41 heroes died that day in PA; 40 adults and one yet-to-be-born person. Anyway....

Currently my numbers are:
FC: 2.0 (it was tested while I was gone and varied from 1.5 to 2.5 only)
CC: <0.5
pH: 7.4
TA: 100
CH: 60 (did this twice so I am sure, hmmmm)
CYA: did not test. My best guess is 20-25. I only added 2-1/2C dichlor all week so I am saving reagents.
STAINING: Most of the week I had an orange mottling on the steps but just slightly darker than right after the ascorbic acid scrub. However, yesterday, in 75 degree water temps, the boys dove in! When their waves hit the steps, I could clearly see an orange water line on the stairs as the waves fell below it (white above, solid light-orange below). This staining is not visible otherwise. I just installed the 1.5 ppm Spring Opener CuLator packs tonight in both skimmers; I only received them today and there were only two in my order????

What do you suggest I do next?

BTW, I have on hand:
25+ lbs. granular dichlor (99% Sam's Club)
11 lbs. cal-hypo (68% In-The-Swim)
3 G 12.5% bleach
8 121oz. 8.25% bleach
5 lbs. sodium carbonate
2 lbs. sodium bicarbonate
76 oz. (1 box) borax
2 G 31.45% muriatic acid
4 qts. polyquat (Kem-Tek 60% algaecide)
1 qt. 60% HEDP (Jack's Magic Pink Stuff)
25 LaMotte borate test-strips
DE 20+ lbs.
2 skimmer socks

[FormerBromineUser]

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Hey. Thank you again for all your help getting my CHLORINE pool up and running!!!

My pool is doing well. I did a little more ascorbic acid scrubbing on the stairs and they look good. My CYA is not yet at 30 but it's closer than my post last week. I have hardly had to add any dichlor so it's a slow-go to raise CYA...with a broken heater it's too cold to swim much.)

I still want to add borates. Since I'm not sure when you were going to recommend that, I went ahead and did a metals bucket test. (I only did pool water at this point as I only wanted to buy one bucket. I will test my fill water after I am done with the pool water. I haven't had to use the hose to fill.)

Anyway, here are my results:

6.) Wait 15 minutes, and note any color change. None

10.) After 24 hours, inspect. Note clarity, color and sediment, if any visible Still clear, no color, no sediment

11.) After 24 *more* hours, inspect. Note clarity, color and sediment, if any visible Still clear, no color, no sediment. I even put my arm in there and swiped the bottom of the bucket and it is squeaky clean.

12.) Test both buckets for chlorine levels with OTO. You should not get a 'normal' reading, but report resultant color. Color with OTO was weird. It was kind of clear in the background with orange-red specks floating in it. I shook it vigorously and the background did turn orange-ish but the specks never disappeared. I think the background would have returned to clear after shaking but the fumes started to bother me so I pitched the sample.

I am now waiting the additional three days as per: 14.) Recover the buckets, and wait 3 days, and check again.

[PoolDoc]

Sounds like your metal free!

You do understand that borates make your pool more resistant to algae, but don't guarantee and algae free pool?

Assuming that you do, for a 30k gallon pool, you'll need about 23 boxes of borax (~$4 each) and 8 gallons of 31% muriatic acid (~$8 each), so the total cost would be $160. It is a permanent addition, except for leaks, backwashing and splashout.

[chem geek]

Or you could use 72 pounds of boric acid. At DudaDiesel (http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=boric+%2Bgranular) this is $65 for 55 pounds plus $45 for 25 pounds plus shipping for the 55 pounds so $110 plus shipping (or 3 25 pounds would be $135 with free shipping). AAA Chemical (http://www.aaa-chemicals.com/boac50poinba.html) has $60 for 50 pounds so $120 for 100 pounds plus shipping. The Chemistry Store (http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_A-F-Boric.html) has $89.10 for 55 pounds and $27.75 for 15 pounds so that's $117 for 70 pounds plus shipping.

Personally, I find using boric acid to be a lot easier since it's just one chemical to add. It didn't used to be as inexpensive as Borax plus acid, but these days it's a lot closer and I think a lot more convenient. Be sure to get granular and not powdered -- the powdered version tends to sit on top of the pool. The granular still dissolves very quickly and is gone with some light brushing. The effect on pH only drops it from 7.5 to around 7.2 when you add 50 ppm borates (the quantities above).

[FormerBromineUser]

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Great news!!!!

Thank you so much for all the help you have given me and others here on the forum. You are truly amazingly generous people to donate so much of your time and energy to us all. In my case: special, special thanks to Ben! Your patience is astounding. After reading SO MANY posts where people look for advice and then don't follow it, (even lie about following it), I know I would either give up or be a sarcastic SOB. Kudos, forum folk!!!

Yes, I know borates are not a solution to algae. I am looking for water comfort. My grumpy husband, after swimming 3 times this year, complains about his hair and skin after being in the pool. Happy husband = happy life???? Ha!!! I will use the "slow" plan for adding borates -just in case. BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

[PoolDoc]

BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

Wow!

Something else to consider: most of the chemicals that form in chlorinated pools, which cause undesired on skin, hair, or eyes are NOT broken down by 'shocking' but ARE broken down by chlorine + solar UV.

Opening your cover on sunny days will probably have MORE effect on the water quality, than the borates will. Of course, the borates won't hurt.

[chem geek]

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Yes, I know borates are not a solution to algae. I am looking for water comfort. My grumpy husband, after swimming 3 times this year, complains about his hair and skin after being in the pool. Happy husband = happy life???? Ha!!! I will use the "slow" plan for adding borates -just in case. BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.
I don't think the borates are going to change his experience with hair and skin. It might, but I wouldn't count on it. Let us know.

Skin oils get washed off even soaking in pure water. So he could complain just being in any body of water for too long. Does he complain about the feeling after being in a bathtub for as long as he would be in a pool?

The other factor would be the active chlorine level. When previously using bromine, it is stronger than chlorine with CYA so that could have been an issue. With chlorine, so long as CYA is present, the active chlorine level is lower than that in tap water (if it's chlorinated -- not chloraminated).

My wife is in our pool every day for around an hour for therapy exercises and she just showers after she swims and uses three shampoos with respect to swimming/chlorine. The first one is "Ultra Swim Chlorine Removal Shampoo, Moisturizing Formula" which she uses every day. This is the primary shampoo that has reducing agents to remove the chlorine bound to organics in hair. The second is "Aquia Swimmers' Shampoo and Conditioner by Barracuda" which she uses most days but not necessarily every day (it has conditioner so you use it when you would want to condition your hair and not just shampoo it). The third is very strong and powerful so is only used once a week and is "Paul Mitchell clarifying, Shampoo Three". This latter will strip your hair if you use it too often, but it is the only one that removes a slimy buildup at the nape of the neck at lowest base of hair -- probably an accumulation of suntan lotion.

Again, a big issue is just being in water for a long time. Sure, the chlorine doesn't help, but it's not the only factor.

[JimK]

Or you could use 72 pounds of boric acid. At DudaDiesel (http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=boric+%2Bgranular) this is $65 for 55 pounds plus $45 for 25 pounds plus shipping for the 55 pounds so $110 plus shipping (or 3 25 pounds would be $135 with free shipping). AAA Chemical (http://www.aaa-chemicals.com/boac50poinba.html) has $60 for 50 pounds so $120 for 100 pounds plus shipping. The Chemistry Store (http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_A-F-Boric.html) has $89.10 for 55 pounds and $27.75 for 15 pounds so that's $117 for 70 pounds plus shipping.

Personally, I find using boric acid to be a lot easier since it's just one chemical to add. It didn't used to be as inexpensive as Borax plus acid, but these days it's a lot closer and I think a lot more convenient. Be sure to get granular and not powdered -- the powdered version tends to sit on top of the pool. The granular still dissolves very quickly and is gone with some light brushing. The effect on pH only drops it from 7.5 to around 7.2 when you add 50 ppm borates (the quantities above).

I switched to using boric acid last year. Much more convenient and I don't have to deal with handling MA.

Btw, I don't know how much adding borates has to do with this, but I noticed that since lowering my TA to 70-80, my pH settles at 7.5 to 7.6 with the SWCG running and doesn't rise any higher. I didn't have to add any MA all last season nor so far this season.

[chem geek]

The borates definitely lower the rate of pH rise because they are a pH buffer. The borates will also help reduce or eliminate scaling in SWCG cells, but that's explained by their pH buffering. They don't change the amount of acid you would need to add over time. The lower TA is what fixes that so the combination basically stabilizes your pH.

[JimK]

The borates definitely lower the rate of pH rise because they are a pH buffer. The borates will also help reduce or eliminate scaling in SWCG cells, but that's explained by their pH buffering. They don't change the amount of acid you would need to add over time. The lower TA is what fixes that so the combination basically stabilizes your pH.

Thanks for the explanation.

Its been nice not having to mess with adding MA. Of course it was following advice on this forum that lead to finding my pool's sweet spot. :)

[FormerBromineUser]

I don't think the borates are going to change his experience with hair and skin. It might, but I wouldn't count on it. Let us know.

The hubby loved it when I added optimizer to our former water and is convinced borates will be the answer now. I don't plan on telling him what you said about borates probably not making a difference and just see what his reaction is when he next goes in. I will let you know what he says!

And to you also, JimK, I wish now that I hadn't stocked up on MA before reading Richard's and your posts about granular boric acid. (At $1.99/G, it was hard not to... my Menard's now raised their price now to $3.57 -still a deal). I found the process of adding borax and MA to be the pits. I would have loved to avoid that!

Btw, I only added 18 boxes of borax before running out. (I wiped out the shelves at several stores). I tested with the Lamotte strips and it seems to read between 50 and 80. I'm not sure why since I didn't add all the borax called for. I will keep an eye on it and see if my reading changes for any reason. I thought I was done reading test strips. Ugh!


Something else to consider: most of the chemicals that form in chlorinated pools, which cause undesired (effects) on skin, hair, or eyes are NOT broken down by 'shocking' but ARE broken down by chlorine + solar UV.

Opening your cover on sunny days will probably have MORE effect on the water quality, than the borates will. Of course, the borates won't hurt.

I was keeping the auto-cover closed a ton trying to warm up the water. If it ever gets sunny, I will open it up. Thanks for the info; I didn't realize that UV radiation had an effect on breaking down bad stuff. Always learning here on the forum!

[PoolDoc]

Btw, I only added 18 boxes of borax before running out. (I wiped out the shelves at several stores). I tested with the Lamotte strips and it seems to read between 50 and 80. I'm not sure why since I didn't add all the borax called for.

Most owner-reported pool volumes are high. Liner volumes supplied by builders and liner makers are for the OVERFLOW volume, not the actual in-pool water.

[FormerBromineUser]

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Good point. I thought about that too....

When I originally figured my volume I used: 20x40 rectangle with an average 5' 8" (5.66') depth (3.2" shallow, 8.3" deep) to get around 33K.

Then, when we filled this year, I had 4 truck loads of water brought in. One truck supposedly held 5.9K, the other 5.8K. That's almost 24K total. Then I added over a foot with my hose which I calculate added another ~6,000+G. (20x40x1=800ft3=5,948G=~6K) 24K+6K=30K That put me at a revised 30K figure.

Do you think the corner bump-outs (see avatar) can account for that big of a difference? Am I doing something else incorrectly?

[PoolDoc]

Inset corners -- 3' 90 deg radius x 4 => 3^2 * 3.14 * 3.2 * 7.46 = 700 gallon deduct
Steps: 1/2(4' inset * 2.8 deep) * 6 wide * 7.46 = 250 gallon add

Shallow part of pool: 20 * 40 * 3.2 * 7.46 = 19,098 gallons add
Deep part of pool: 20 * 20 * [(8.3 - 3.2)/2] * 7.46 = 7,610 gallons
[Probably should be [(8.3 - 3.2)/3] -- but it depends on the shape of the slope and hopper ]

19098 + 7610 + 250 - 700 = 26,258 total

[FormerBromineUser]

Thanks for the calculations! My kid, a physics major, promises to get an accurate measure of the deep end as soon as he has time. Kids.

PoolGeek: Guess what??? My husband swam for the first time last night after the addition of borates and he says his hair and skin are MUCH better! His hair (what's left of it... tee-hee) was soft, not sticky. His skin, not overly dry or sticky. He said there is a definite difference! He said he loves the "feel" of the water now. Hmmmm.

I am wondering, though, even with a pool of 26K, why it only took 18 boxes of Borax to get my borates over 50 (it still looks to me to be closer to 80). The "recipe" in http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/18597-Adding-Borax-to-Make-your-Pool-Resistant-to-Algae calls for 10 boxes per 10K. Is there any other test you can run for borates that is more accurate and not cost prohibitive? I'm really puzzled.

[PoolDoc]

1. It looks like I may have an error there; I'm going to have to check because 2 info sources, aren't in agreement.

2. BUT, how were you testing? If it was the AquaChek . . . they are pretty much unreadable. Test some tap water with known borates (0.0) and see what you get.

[chem geek]

It's 7-3/4 boxes (76 ounces weight each) of 20 Mule Team Borax per 10,000 gallons for 50 ppm Borates. To balance the pH, this requires 282 fluid ounces (35-1/4 cups or 2.2 gallons) of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid). You usually alternate adding back and forth so that you don't have the pH swing too wildly.

I'm glad the feel of the Borates are working out. I think the main effect is a reduction of surface tension and/or a surfactant effect and that may make the hair not stick together as much and the skin feel a little more silky, but quite frankly the effects aren't noticed by everyone and I'm suspicious that some of it isn't just the placebo effect.

[FormerBromineUser]

PoolDoc: I bought the borate LaMotte test strips as recommended. May I test borates with distilled water instead of tap? Our tap is softened well water....

ChemGeek: Your borax/volume ratios agree better with my results although it appears I am testing higher than 50. Maybe Ben can use your ratios to compare with his other "info sources". The placebo effect works for me if it makes my husband happy with my new water recipe: pool forum vs. pool store! But he is ADAMANT about the improvement since adding borax. I can't speak to it; 75 degrees is way to cold for me. I read that you use borates, Richard. Have you gone swimming in water without borates to see if YOU notice a difference? Just a thought.

[chem geek]

I've noticed the shimmering effect and a lowering of surface tension with the water meniscus being more flat, but I haven't noticed effects on the skin or hair nor has my wife, but she does water therapy exercise in the pool every day for about an hour so she's in there a lot. She didn't make any comments when I boosted up the borates this year after it dropping by dilution from the winter rains. Everyone's different though.

[FormerBromineUser]

Hello!

While I am waiting (and waiting) for my CYA to reach 30, I have been thinking. p.s. I am adding dichlor every few days and keeping FC between 2.5 and 3.5, CC=0. And, yes, Ben, I am keeping the pool open for several hours a day, but it's hardly being used because IT'S SO COLD!

Anyway, a month or so ago I took a pool sample to Leslie's to get some metals tested and they told me my phosphates were high. I haven't worried about it as everything I had read said as long as you don't have any algae blooms not to be overly concerned. However, I have been following the "ozinator experience" which led me to: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php/23130-Using-PhosFree-for-algae-control?highlight=Should+I+lower+my+phosphates ...and that's what got me thinking.

I have enlarged the views on my profile and avatar pictures and emailed Ben larger images of them. I am hoping that you will be able to see the extent of my "greenery" around the pool. There's usually more plants and flowers but we had a killing-winter and I lost a bunch of plants. I do not use plant food/fertilizer but I have a LOT of mulch around the pool.

Hopefully you experts will be able to see the pictures and can offer advice as to whether phosphates may be an increasing problem in the future and need to be dealt with. So far, thanks to you all, everything seems to be perfect except for the weather and resulting low pool usage.

Thanks!

Randy

[FormerBromineUser]

Hey.

I have been "patiently" waiting until it looked like things had settled down after the July 4th rush and it looks like they have.

Here's my news: My CYA finally hit around 42 (my son and I are familiar with logarithmic scales so it's our best guess). I have been using LC to sanitize. My pH is incredibly stable (thanks for the TA adjustment, Ben!). I check FC, CC, and pH daily and I seem to lose 1.0-1.5 ppm FC each day. I'm not exact with my LC dosages as I am trying to learn how to judge quantities myself and NOT use a calculator. :-) Twice I have had CC between 0.1 and 0.5 but that was after little kids were in the pool....

Here are my numbers:
FC: aim for 4.2 (10% of CYA)
CC: 0
pH: 7.4
TA: 80
CYA: 42 (>40)
CH: 60
Borate: 60 .... I THINK it's 60 but I can't read those LaMotte strips very well
Metals: 0 (according to bucket test) I have only added rain water so far

So.... Is there anything else I should be doing with my new water? I still have concerns about Leslie's telling me I had >1000ppb phosphates. If you think I am saavy enough, I will be happy to be an additional test case for the phosphate project. I know the axiom is "if it ain't broke..." but it seems like there's a good argument for preventative medicine too.

Oh, and my pool is really 26K, not 30K, but I can't change my signature.

Products on hand: plenty of 12.5% LC, 10.5 lbs 68% cal-hypo, 3.25Q 60% polyquat, 2 bx borax, 2.5G MA

[Watermom]

I'll let Ben tell you if he wants you to do something with his phosphate project. All of your numbers look pretty good.

Regarding your signature, if you click on the link in my signature, you'll be able to edit it to show the correct volume.

[FormerBromineUser]

Thanks especially for taking a look at my numbers, Watermom! I tried to use YOUR signature also, and it still won't let me edit. I get the error message:
Your signature contains too many lines and must be shortened. You may only have up to 3 line(s). Long text may have been implicitly wrapped, causing it to be counted as multiple lines.

[Watermom]

Well, shorten it a bit. It would be better if it was shorter anyways --- less to read. When we glance at signatures, it helps if it is concise and only the most necessary info in there.

OR, are you saying you can't do any editing at all --- not even to delete part of it?

[PoolDoc]

It looks like everything is OK. Unless you want to pursue using a PO4 remover now, I don't see a reason to do so.

But . . . it looks like I'm going to be putting together a 'winterizing kit' containing PO4 remover + a clarifier, with the intention of selling it to up to 100 in-ground pool owners who want to avoid spring-time slime. I hope to make an announcement about this by mid-August.

[JimK]

It looks like everything is OK. Unless you want to pursue using a PO4 remover now, I don't see a reason to do so.

But . . . it looks like I'm going to be putting together a 'winterizing kit' containing PO4 remover + a clarifier, with the intention of selling it to up to 100 in-ground pool owners who want to avoid spring-time slime. I hope to make an announcement about this by mid-August.

Interesting.....up until last winter I used a kit that contained a PO4 remover (it's designed for pools with mesh winter covers). Last winter I didn't use the PO4 remover based on what I'd been reading here about phosphates not being an issue when when properly chlorinated. Maybe I'll go back to using a PO4 remover at winter closing?

[PoolDoc]

Again, using a PO4 remover ONLY has value if you take the PO4 level down to a measured 125 ppb (0.125 ppm) level OR LESS. Simply lowering the PO4 from 2,000 ppb to 500 ppb is probably useless. Also low PO4 levels only make it EASIER to kill resistant algae; low PO4 does not kill algae by itself.

If you have been successfully maintaining a clear pool on opening without messing with a PO4 remover, using one probably serves no purpose.