Pool builder from H**L!

[waterbear]

As some of you might know I have been having some major problems with my pool builder. I have my dream pool but there have been many, many problems. The pool was supposed to be finshed last June and has been operational since last November. HIs latest insult to my good nature just occurred. I have been dealing with a leak for some time now. My CYA dropped from 80 ppm to 20 ppm in a three month period and the calcium showed a similar drop. ( I fill with water that has 0 hardness and add calcium because of the grouted tile work and marble spillover on the spa and because of the heater, the pool is fiberglass). The builder was convinced that the leaks were coming from the light niches in the pool and the spa. He has NOT leak tested anything since the original plumbing was done and that has been modified several times already since it was not done correctly. I know that some of the pvc joints on the valves are leaking in the replumbed areas because I can see them. I have shown the builder as well and he hasn't dont anything about it for 2 months. The pool has a Hayward niche and the spa a Pentair...don't ask me why. Well the builder was out yesterday and got in his wet suit and took out the lights and used epoxy putty in the back of the niche where the wire for the light comes through. My lights are supposed to be Fiberstars FX lights according to the contract so they will sync up properly with the fiber optics in my water features which have a Fiberstars Illuminator. I discovered that he put in pentair Sam and Sal lights which are also color wheel lights but they won't sync up properly with the Fiberstars illuminator. He told me he will replace the illuminator with the Pentair one which is fine by me at this point.(The Pentair is metal halide so it is more powerful than the Fiberstars Halogen that I have now...Better light output in the metal halide.) The problem is that when he epoxied the lights he didn't leave enough cable for them to be placed on the deck when removed which means I will have to drain water from the pool or spa when I need to change the bulbs. I pointed this out to him when he was doing the epoxy and he told me not to worry about it...Just call him to change the bulbs. At the rate that he has shown up to fix things that he or his workers screwed up it means I would have a dark pool for a year! He was supposed to come back today to put the lights back in and fix some plumbing for the water features. I called at 7 pm and got his secretary. She told me he would not be coming out but that two of his workers would. Thwy showed up at 9:30 pm!. They got the lights in finally (they lost one of the niche screws and had to hunt for it in the dark for 20 minutes and they had no tools. I had to get a screwdriver for them!) but said that the builder had to come back with his wet suit to tighten them up. Also in the 26 hours the lights were out of their niches I lost almost 3 inches of water from the pool! It may very well be that the niches are leaking but his epoxy putty sure didn't fix it. My foundation has eroded away beneath the deck once already and he backfilled it. Now the new dirt is eroding where the pipes come out from under the concrete deck and go to the equipment pad. He backfilled last month! (and his backhoe operator broke the pad my heater sits on..don't know how they intend to fix that! He did replace the sensors that got broken when they dumped a load of dirt on top of my equiment pad and had to dig out the pumps and valves!) I know that the skimmer was never cemented into place and I think that is where some of the leaking is occuring. Now this builder does know his stuff but he sends out unsupervised people that don't really know what they are doing. Every problem I have had is becuase of this. His work crews have changed completely about 4 times since he started construction on my pool March 2005. I just needed a place to vent some of my frustrations but I would apprciate hearing any comments any of you might have. Be aware that this leak is just one of the problems remaining to be fixed and is a rather minor one compared to some of the others! I think he has justcreated more problems for me with this latest 'repair' and I am getting ready to demand that he find the leaks and get the lights reinstalled correctly with enough cable so they can be placed on the deck for service as the manual for them states is the correct way.

Thanks for listening!

[haze_1956]

I am at a loss why you still have this guy working for you !

He seems to be a "one step forward, two steps back" kind of guy.

Granted he keeps coming back, though apparently that is even rarely.

This is not a work ethic I would tolerate very long.

What is keeping you from firing him and having the work finished by someone else?

Most importantly - Have you already paid him in full?

[CarlD]

Waterbear:
I have three words for you: Get legal advice.

Why? You have continuing eroding problems that you KNOW will eventually cause some sort of catastrophic failure. He knows it, too, but doesn't want to admit fault or take the expense to fix it.

A lawyer friend of my brother's had a contractor screw up his bathroom, not finish and then had the gall to sue the lawyer! BIG mistake. By the time my brother's friend was done with him, the contractor was paying HIM thousands.

You are long beyond depending on this guy's good will and dealing courteously with him.

[mbar]

I agree with Carl -I would tell him that you will contact a lawyer if he does'nt fix the problems asap, sometimes just getting a good lawyer to write him a letter will help.

[CarlD]

I respectfully disagree with Marie--I don't think you threaten to get a lawyer, you get one and have him send the letter. I think you are past the "I'll call my lawyer" stage. That way he KNOWS you aren't bluffing and therefore won't call your bluff.

[cleancloths]

You are very patient my friend. At this point I think I might be more tempted to get a HITMAN than a lawyer ;)

[sevver]

I don't think that I would even tell him I was getting a lawyer, I would just get one. If your foundation is eroding, my question is, where is the water coming from? If there is no help for the water coming from there, then why was there not any drain tile put in place to control where the water goes and the damage could thus be limited?
As for the lights, if the manual says that there should be enough wire to place them on the deck to change the bulbs, and he did not install them correctly then he is not living up to his end of the deal. As for him cracking the pad, I would think that he should bust it out, and repour it for you, and while he is at it, he should pressure test the plumbing to check for leaks.
Get a lawyer, and videotape everything. If I was ever to pay someone to do anything major for me, I would probably video tape daily, at least it will be available if you need it. So far though, I just do it all myself, coming out of a construction background though, nothing really phases me yet. I have never messed with an inground pool though, I would imagine that should it ever be desired, I would just research it and do whatever I could myself.

[slhalufska]

As some of you might know I have been having some major problems with my pool builder. I have my dream pool but there have been many, many problems. The pool was supposed to be finshed last June and has been operational since last November. HIs latest insult to my good nature just occurred. ......
Thanks for listening!

Hi, I'm new here. I am also in the 'throes' of putting in a fiberglass pool. The builder is here, as we speak, to fix an installation that was continued through the plumbing stage even though the level was off 3.5" After 2 weeks, and cc'ing my attorney the correspondence between the builder & I via email, he finally showed up. I have to take the day off from work to babysit the process of draining, lifting & leveling. I'm praying that when they reconnect the pipes, we don't end up with any leaks later on.

Waterbear, you didn't say who your builder is? Can you say that online? At least, if he's in Central Florida? Possibly Mt. Dora, FL? Just curious. That's where my builder is from. He started off great, but didn't do the actual install, sent two employees. I can appreciate that he can't personally install every job, but at least - train your guys, especially to be able to work with pitfalls or non-perfect environments. "Stitch in time" means the world in the field of construction!

I hope your project has been remedied & you are enjoying your pool. Good luck.

[waterbear]

I really don't want to name my builder but he specialized in fiberglass pools in N. Fl. You can see from my posts that I live in St. Augustine and he is pretty local. I am trying to get as much done by him as I can right now before I take the actions that I have ready. I know once I do that any further repairs will probably stop. My builder supervised very lilttle of the work. That is what caused the problems. He knows the work was not done as the contracts he drew up specified. At this point I am waiting on some parts that have been ordered for my automation system and my spa, and on replacement water features that turned out to be defective. (not his fault but there were plumbed wrong and not as the manufacturer required)...he is supposed to replumb part of the systme once the new water features arrive.

[CUTURHAIR]

Wow, what a nightmare you are experiencing. It is such a shame how you pay for a pool, and then trying to get repairs done are next to impossible. I just had a repair done from my pool company, which, in turn, made the original problem worse. I called and called and emailed pictures as well, to no avail. NO return phone calls or emails for weeks. I finally had enough, and left a voicemail, as the person I needed to speak with was never available when I called. I told her on the voicemail that I would send Five On Your Side out to their store to do a segment on poor customer service and pool repairs gone bad. Five On Your Side is a local segment where a local news channel sends a reporter into the field to investigate situations where people have paid money and not gotten what they paid for and can't get what they want, a refund, or fix the original faulty repair etc. Well, I DID get a call that night! They didn't want those cameras in their store and on the news causing all that bad publicity, and the owner was at my house 2 days later!
So, if you have a news channel that has that service, I would try to threaten them with that as well. Lawyers will definitely scare the pool company, but cameras, and reporters invading your business is something NO company wants to deal with. WAY too much bad publicity for any company, and it will usually get their attention to follow through immediately.

Good luck with your situation.

[Phillbo]

Start documenting all the issues with a camera !!!!!!!! Hire an attorney and tell him you do not want any further repairs performed by your current loser pool builder ( why would you, they are never done right) . Sue the current builder in order to get the money to have a reputable builder perform the repairs.

I was forced to take this approach on a home build a few years back.

[waterbear]

update, builder is supposed to be out next week because some of the ordered parts are supposed to come in. Not holding my breath but I am going to do a bucket leak test and leave it on the swim out so he can see just how much the water is going down still! Maybe that will get him to fix the lousy pvc welds on the valve that is dripping and do a pressure test on the system!

[sstenner]

As someone who has "successfully" sued and "won" a court case against a bad contractor (not a pool builder, however). I can tell you that, even when you win...you lose! We spent almost $20k in legal fees, over two years of time and now, we're trying to collect the $13k in legal fees we were awarded (we were awarded the legal fees we had incurred up until the court trial...the $$ spent afterward, trying to collect the judgement are out of *our* pockets.

Stay OUT of the legal system unless you have NO other alternative. It is NOT a fair and equitable system and is "geared" toward the "defendant".

It's very easy to say "get a lawyer", but, if you have to actually sue, you could spend thousands of dollars and STILL have to pay to have your work completed (which is what happened to us). What we have learned is RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH anyone you hire to do a job for you and cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Best of luck!

Stephanie

[waterbear]

That is why I am trying to get as much done as possible before I take that step!

[waterbear]

Well, much has happened since my last post. My PB had to go before the construction review board in our county (I was at the meeting along with several other of his victims). He was given 30 days to complete all the pools so they pass final inspection (there are 18 of them that are over a year overdue for finals, mine included) and is not allowed to pull any new permits. One of his customers had a meeting at her house with 2 police detectives (I was there too) since several of his customers have had contractor liens placed on their property because he did not pay his subcontractors and because of other problems. The detectives said that they most likely have a case against him after reviewing all the evidence submitted and that they would persue it. He also drove a backhoe into the wall of this lady's NEW house and caused extensive damage. It was accidental but he was not offering to repair the damage from what I understand. Her pool is in much worse shape than mine (not even close to completion) so I am one of the lucky ones by comparision. He is also facing possible criminal charges and the State might pull his contractors license. There was talk that he forged an electrical permit and used someone elses license number and forged their signature. I don't know if this is true or not. I do know that he had a pool that was not properly bonded (he actually had his workers bury the bond wire that was SPLICED so it would look like one continuous wire to pass final...the inspectors went back and dug it up and found it, had his workers cap off the main drain pipe underground so a pool would past a pressure test on final, and a little girl got shocked in the next county because of an improperly bonded pool and they are supposed to be bringing criminal charges against him for that. He closed his place of business and is geting out of pool construction.(He was dropped as a San Juan dealer (Finally! I called and emailed San Juan several times about some of the problems I was having and they NEVER responded to me) and was going to sell Viking but my understanding is the check he wrote them bounced.) He has to have all his pools ready for final inspection by the 24th of this month (august)..today is sunday the 20th and he was at my house today working on things by himself since he has no workers anymore.I am scheduled for final inspection tomorrow. We shall see what happens. He has not completed all the work but said he intends to over the next few weeks. He did bring over the new pool light that he has to install and some other pieces of equipment and plumbing and they are here at my house at least. I suspect that I will have to pay someone to finish the work and fix some of the bad work and damage that he has done to my pool. At this point I will be happy if my lighting works, my water features sort of work, and I have everything that I paid for in terms of equipment.
I will say this to his credit, a week after the hearing at the review board he came over to my house and we sat down and made a list of all the things that still needed to be addresed. He came up with solutions that seem workable and I only had to compromise on one thing....I have to live with a light in my spa that has a cord so short that I will have to dump the spa water into the pool in the event I need to change the bulb. I can live with this minor inconvenience. Now I just have to wait and see if he will be good to his word. I don't know why he went so bad when he was an excellent PB when I did my research. I have some suspicions (At the meeting with the dectectives one person said that he went through their bathroom looking for drugs and asked another person for painkillers on several occasions.) I have heard from a former employee of his that his wife gave him an ultimatum about this. I will give him a chance and see what happens. There really isn't much more I can do now. My lawyer is ready but she already has said that I will probably have to pay someone else to finish the work if he doesn't and then get in line behind all his creditors and try and collect.
This has been a wild ride and I want to get off!

[mbar]

Wow, what a saga for you to have to go through. I hope that everything is finished soon, and you can enjoy your pool. Drugs are horrible - it goes through our society wreaking havoc in ways that people don't even imagine. Hopefully he will get help before he ruins anymore of his life, and anyone elses pool. Sometimes all of the research on finding a good contractor is not enough - luck comes into play too.

[tenax]

tragic story..hit close to home for me after seeing a dateline program last week focused in some california home contractors and some of it was about the very issue of unlicensed unqualified contractors using other contractor licenses. how do the inspectors setting up the stings catch them? they set up a house in need of renos and invite contractors who are suspect to come by and give a quote. their easy way to find out who is potentially a suspect to invite is simply by going through the yellow pages and checking licenses where displayed against a registry and if they don't match...they admit that for all the success they have had in catching frauds, it's just the tip of the iceberg and the penalty in many cases has simply been nothing more than a fine.it's really buyer beware and scary!

[mickey4paws]

I am so sorry for your troubles :( I wouldn't be surprised if this guy ends up filing a bankruptcy in hopes of discharging all his creditors (and whatever lawsuit judgments people have won against him.) Best of luck to you, and I really hope you can finally get your pool up and running and be able to enjoy it.

[waterbear]

My understanding is that he has already started that.

[RavenNS]

I'm so sorry that this has happened to you waterbear. How exhausting!
well, at least you have a beautiful pool & spa to enjoy...
( sounds like some people haven't gotten even close to that much out of this PB)

I hope that you can get everything up to the level of your desire, without much more out-of-pocket expenses.

I wish you Luck :)
Gwyn :-)

[rbonin]

Waterbear - We had an experience much like yours with our first PB. The "good" news is he never really got started on our pool and only ripped us off for our $17,000 down payment.

He seemed like such a great guy when we started with him and his reputation was great with the BBB, but family problems and drugs quickly took a toll on him. He abandoned his company, employees as well as customers, and took all the money and spent it on who-knows-what. Right after he was indicted for fraud by the MO Attorney General's office, he committed suicide in a 1-car accident.

Of course, we were not able to recover a dime as there was nothing left.

The good news for you is that yours seems to be trying to make good on his committments, at least at some level. Good luck.

~Rick~

[waterbear]

Update, we passed our final inpection today! Only close to 15 months overdue! My pool is finally legal to swim in! Now I have to see if the PB will be good to his word to finish the work that needs to be done. He has informed me that he has gotten a sales job and that once my pool is done he is finished with being a contractor. He did bring over all the rest of the equipment that I am supposed to have at least. It's sitting in my garage. Also, in his new clarity he admitted that he plumbed the water features with pipes that are too big so he is supposed to replace some of them with smaller pipes to increase the presuure and reduce the flow rate. Don't know how he will do this without destroying the deck but he said he could....we shall see.

[South_Texas_Sun]

Update, we passed our final inpection today! Only close to 15 months overdue! My pool is finally legal to swim in! Now I have to see if the PB will be good to his word to finish the work that needs to be done. He has informed me that he has gotten a sales job and that once my pool is done he is finished with being a contractor. He did bring over all the rest of the equipment that I am supposed to have at least. It's sitting in my garage. Also, in his new clarity he admitted that he plumbed the water features with pipes that are too big so he is supposed to replace some of them with smaller pipes to increase the presuure and reduce the flow rate. Don't know how he will do this without destroying the deck but he said he could....we shall see.

Pipes too big?? Lucky fellow. I'm installing 2.5 inch pvc as we speak because our plumber didn't read the directions and our waterfalls dribble instead of flow. Are you sure you want SMALLER pipes? (or just smaller jets?)

If the PBFH isn't even in the pool business anymore, think LONG AND HARD before you let him start tearing up concrete or undermining what you already have.

With all the terrorist illegals coming across the Mexican border, why can't they go after the PBFH's? Maybe I'll start taking out ads for our PBFH in the local paper, and publishing Mohammad cartoons above their name......

You know what Hollywood says...."No such thing as bad publicity!".....lol

STS

[waterbear]

Pipes too big?? Lucky fellow. I'm installing 2.5 inch pvc as we speak because our plumber didn't read the directions and our waterfalls dribble instead of flow. Are you sure you want SMALLER pipes? (or just smaller jets?)

If the PBFH isn't even in the pool business anymore, think LONG AND HARD before you let him start tearing up concrete or undermining what you already have.

With all the terrorist illegals coming across the Mexican border, why can't they go after the PBFH's? Maybe I'll start taking out ads for our PBFH in the local paper, and publishing Mohammad cartoons above their name......

You know what Hollywood says...."No such thing as bad publicity!".....lol

STSI have Fiberstars spillway fiber optics pots and they have been plumbed with 2 inch pipe. Install maunual calls for smaller pipes for water connection. There is too much flow and not enough pressure.

[waterbear]

Just an update on my pool if anyone is interested. The PB has closed up shop and disappeared leaving about 19 unfinsihed pools. He is no longer licensed at least! There are court cases against him (I have not filed yet, don't know if it's worth it.) I have fixed a lot of the problems myself, had to replumb part of the system (spa and water features). They installed it without gluing some of the PVC joints and others came loose from bad workmanship! Don't know how that ever passed pressure testing on the inspection! (I think I have finally solved the leak problems from the spa! They never glued the check valve on the bottom!). Still need to get an electrician to wire in the fiber optices illuminator and still need to replace the light in the pool ( at least he gave me the replacement light before he disappeared!). Slowly but surely the pool is becoming what it was supposed to be! At least I was not as bad off as one lady that used the same PB who had to hire another company to finish her pool for an additional $22,000! And that was a special price because the owner of this company is her neighbor!

[msm859]

Just for the record "decreasing" pipe size will NOT increase water pressure -- if anything it will decrease the water pressure. Decreasing the pipe may increase "velocity" but you can do that at the end of the pipe.

[JohnT]

Just for the record "decreasing" pipe size will NOT increase water pressure -- if anything it will decrease the water pressure. Decreasing the pipe may increase "velocity" but you can do that at the end of the pipe.

In a pool plumbing system, decreasing pipe size most certainly will increase pressure. You are restricting flow with the same size pump. Unless your pipe has the capacity to carry much more water than the pump can deliver (not the case with pools), any change in pipe size will result in increased pressure at the pump.

[waterbear]

In a pool plumbing system, decreasing pipe size most certainly will increase pressure. You are restricting flow with the same size pump. Unless your pipe has the capacity to carry much more water than the pump can deliver (not the case with pools), any change in pipe size will result in increased pressure at the pump.
EXACTLY! The water features were supposed to be plumbed with 3/4 inch pipe so the flow rate is much too high causing them to overflow yet there is not enough pressure (or velocity) to allow them to work properly. I have been in contact with the manufacturer to find a remedy for this short of tearing up the deck and repluming although I did have to replace some of the exposed plumbing due to faulty pcv joints and leaks already.

[ehorn]

Just a little water flow dynamics for you, there is a standard equation we use to calculate water flow which is:

PV = nRT

Where P = Pressure V = Volume, n = number of moles R = universal constant T = Temperature. Usually the nRT side is constant so in a pipe we look at:

P1V1 = P2V2

So in a case with a pool where a pump is pumping at a constant volume rate the pressure would change. So here if a pipe diameter decreases the pressure would have to increase. Depending on the size difference you can calculate what the exact pressure change will be.

Eric