CYA over 100 with yellow/mustard algae

[MikeM]

Hi, and thanks for the great forum. I've been reading for several weeks and finally decided to register and ask a question.

I recently converted to BBB after 7-8 years of using stupidly-expensive BioGuard shock and smartsticks. As a result, my CYA is quite high... dip sticks read right at 100; the pool store tested at 91; and my recently-acquired Taylor K2006 kit reads well over 100.

I immediately took the FC up to about 10, and I'm losing about 2ppm per day, but it holds fine overnight. I had been keeping it in the 3-5 range previously.

The water looks fine, except that I have a recurring problem with what I think is the dreaded yellow/mustard algae. I've had a minor problem with this for 2-3 years in late summer. It appears on all flat surfaces and the wall of the shady side. It's a very fine brown/yellow dust that - when brushed - "poofs" into a cloud that looks brown/yellow/greenish, but very quickly disappears. Then, 2-3 days later, it's back on all flat surfaces and the shady walls, and other places with poor circulation.

All this time, I convinced myself it was just some fine dirt or pollen that wasn't being filtered by my cartridge filter. But after reading extensively here, I'm convinced it is the hard-to-kill yellow/mustard beast. I can't imagine that dirt would attach itself to vertical surfaces. There's not a ton of the stuff (very spotty), and it does go away with cooler weather.

Problem is: with my CYA so high, I would need to add an insane amount of bleach to kill this stuff. The best guess chart says 75-100 ppm of FC. Are you guys really recommending that??

I have a cartridge filter, so I get very little (if any) water loss in the normal course of operating the pool. This is probably why the CYA has built up so high. But also, I have no way to vacuum the stuff to waste. It's an IG gunite pool, but I'm not too comfortable with taking half the water out.

I would welcome any and all suggestions. Thanks. I listed my equipment and other test results below.

35X20 (approx), IG gunite, 18k gal, pebbletec plaster
Pentair cartridge filter, 2.0 HP pump

FC=10
CC=0
CYA=>100
pH=7.6
TA=105
Borates=40

[PoolDoc]

1. Do a dilution test with the CYA, to determine your actual level. Mix 1/2 cup tap water (or distilled) with 1/2 cup pool water, and run the CYA test against that mixture. Multiply the result x2.

2. If you actually already have 40 ppm of borates (how did you test?) go ahead and take the level up to the 60 ppm effective level. On your pool, that would mean about 7 more boxes of borax and about 2 gallons of muriatic acid.

3. Your PF (PoolFactor) is about 6. A gallon of 8.25% bleach contains about 0.7 lbs of chlorine. So, each gallon will add about 6 x 0.7 or 4 ppm of chlorine to your pool. Three gallons will add 12 ppm. That will get you to 20 ppm. Get there, and keep it there for awhile.

4. Get a cheap OTO (yellow / red drops) kit locally. Use it the next time your test your pool. It will turn very dark yellow to orange --learn to use it to get a guesstimate of your high chlorine level, without using the DPD - FAS test every time.

5. Brush your pool at least 3x per week, each time AFTER dosing with chlorine.

6. Try all that for a week. If you don't see an improvement, add another 4 boxes of borax, another gallon of acid, and take your chlorine levels up to 30 ppm.

You CAN swim at FC=30 ppm when CYA > 100 ppm, with no ill effects on people. We're not quite sure what those levels do to women's fashion swimwear, so leave the $120 swimsuits in the house. . . unless they are old.

[MikeM]

Hi Ben. Thanks so much for the detailed response.

1. I did the CYA dilution test, as you suggested, and it did come in a little lower at 80. I also re-ran the regular non-diluted test and it was still over 100, but a little less than before. As I said, the pool store said I'm at 91; and the strips, while hard to read, seem to be dead-on at 100. In any case, my CYA seems to be somewhere in the range of 80-100.

2. Regarding borates, I have the LaMotte strips, which seem to be right between 30 and 50. Also, the pool store said I was at 29, and that was right before I added 2 boxes of borax, which should have taken me above 40. Are you sure I need 7 boxes of borax to go from 40 to 60ppm in 18kgal? According to the bleachcalc.exe, 7 boxes of 76oz borax (532 oz) would increase borate ppm by 90. I do recall reading here that the bleachcalc app might be inaccurate for borax. Just want to make sure before I dump that much borax in the pool.

3. I'll take the chlorine to 20ppm tomorrow after a trip to Wal-Mart to restock. Are you sure 20-30ppm is going to be high enough to kill this beast? From what I've read here, others have gone much higher (35-40 for 7+ days), and they had much lower CYA than me.

4. I'll get the OTO kit tomorrow also. I wasn't looking forward to counting 100+ drops in the DPD test.

I'll brush the pool regularly and update back here with any improvement. One question: because I have a cartridge filter, I can't vacuum this algae to waste. My pool store rents a portable pump for this purpose. Is that something I should consider also? Losing some water might also help drop the CYA a bit. Or should a cartridge filter trap this stuff? Do I need to clean the filters during this process?

Thanks again for the detailed response.

[PoolDoc]

You've already added 2 boxes, so deduct those, but yes, 7 boxes was what I intended. Bleachcalc has an error in the borate calculator. Feel free to work up to 60 ppm in 2 box doses, if you prefer.

FC = 20 won't necessarily kill it, but it will likely stop it. Mustard algae doesn't take over the pool suddenly, so if you get to 20 ppm, and brush, and still see it recurring -- add more.

When testing, use the 10ml sample size, rather than 25ml sample, At 10 ml, 20 ppm = 40 drops, not 100.

A cartridge filter will normally trap dead - but not live -- algae.

[MikeM]

Update... I took the borates up somewhere north of 50 (not sure exact level), and I held the FC at 20ppm for last 10 days. I've been brushing almost every day and also set the Polaris to run 6 hours per day. The filter pump is running 24/7.

No sign of algae anywhere. But I'm guessing that could be due to the excessive brushing and Polaris run-time. So, as of yesterday, I'm letting the FC come back down to 8-10 and I'll stop brushing for a couple days to see what happens. I also reset the filter pump and Polaris to normal run times (12 and 2 hours respectively).

So far, so good. We've been swimming with no ill-effects at 20ppm, and the water looks fantastic.

Thanks for all the help. If the algae returns, I'll update again.

By the way, any suggestions on how to get the CYA down to a more normal level? I think I'd like to keep it around 50-60.

Mike

[PoolDoc]

With a cartridge filter, you won't be losing much water on backwash. So, CYA levels won't drop on their own.

To go from CYA=100 to CYA=50, you'll need to dump 1/2 of your pool, and refill. The only other way is to allow the pool to get 'slimed' over the winter. CYA usually bio-degrades, to nitrogen gas (no problem) or nitrates (usually not a problem). But sometimes, it biodegrades to ammonia, which is a big problem. So, that's not really recommended.

If you do drain, be SURE to do so ONLY when the ground is reasonably dry. Even concrete pools will float out of the ground when emptied, if the ground water levels is high enough.

[MikeM]

Thanks Ben. I'm not at all inclined to drain half the pool due to risk of floating and cost of the water. I'm even less inclined to "slime" the pool over the winter.

So, I've begun to think maybe I'll just keep the CYA high and maintain FC levels accordingly high as well. I've read here about some of the benefits of that approach. The one significant downside seems to be that if you slip-up and get an algae bloom, it takes an enormous amount of chlorine to kill it.

One question: my daily chlorine loss is right at 2.2 to 2.3 ppm (after two weeks of careful tracking). That strikes me as a little high. Is that normal with CYA>100? What would my daily usage be at CYA=50-60? I'm in North Texas and my pool gets 7-8 hours of direct sun per day. Water temps range from 84-92 in the summer. Thanks again.

Mike

[Watermom]

I don't think losing 2ppm of chlorine per day is unreasonable at all.

[chem geek]

At 100 ppm CYA, typical FC loss is around 15%, but you are at 20 ppm so you're doing even better than the predicted 3 ppm loss. If you didn't have yellow/mustard algae, your minimum FC would be more like 7.5 ppm in which case you'd only be losing around 1.2 ppm FC per day which is lower than the typical pool (2 ppm is fairly typical; 3 ppm is not uncommon).

You should check behind light niches and under removable ladders. Yellow/mustard algae prefers shades and often hangs out in areas with poor water circulation. You need to completely kill it or else it will come back when you let the FC level drop below roughly 15% of the CYA level.

[MikeM]

Thanks to all. This is such great information. I've owned 3 different pools over the last 13 years, and for the first time, I actually feel like I'm in control, and know what I'm doing, and why.

For the last 4-5 days, I've been letting the FC come down to 8, then add 1 gal of 8.25% bleach to get back to 12, then 2 days later I'm at 7.5-8.0. At those FC levels and with CYA>=100, I should be losing around 1.5ppm per day, using chem geek's 15% typical figure.

Since I'm higher than that (2.2-2.3 ppm loss per day), I assume I'm still fighting something in the water, most likely the yellow/mustard algae. But I've checked everywhere and see no sign of algae anywhere. I'll keep checking. My filter pressure is up about 4 PSI over this 2-week timeperiod, so I hope that's the dead algae. I'll clean it out this weekend. Hope I haven't declared victory too soon.

I suppose it's also possible that my higher daily usage could result from the extreme heat and sun we've had over the last week (temps over 100 and no clouds in sight). Bathing load has been light. I'll keep monitoring. 1.2-1.5 sounds very good to me.

Bottom line, I'm starting to like the idea of high CYA... higher FC levels, lower daily consumption, and less frequent manual additions of bleach. Just need to make sure I've killed this yellow beast for good.

Thanks again for all the information and advice.

Mike

[chem geek]

It's more definitive to do an overnight chlorine loss test by seeing the chlorine loss rate overnight by testing after the sun if off the pool in the evening and before it hits the pool in the morning. If your loss is less than 1 ppm FC, especially if 0.5 ppm or lower, then you don't have unusual loss. It doesn't prove you don't have algae, but it's not enough to show up as chlorine demand.

The main downside to a higher CYA level is that IF you get algae or any other reason for needing to shock the pool, it takes a LOT of chlorine to do so.

[PoolDoc]

Chem_Geek is right about the very high chlorine levels required, if you do get mustard algae. But there are some ways to reduce that risk.

1. Using borax is probably the easiest and longest lasting, and has no undesirable side-effects. Like CYA, it's a permanent addition to the water. Unlike CYA, it is not subject to biodegradation. With a free form pool, your pool volume is only a guess, unless you actually measured it during filling, using the water meter. You'd need 20 - 25 boxes of borax + 5-7 gallons of muriatic acid, and some Lamotte borate strips (follow the link to the testkit page in my signature).

A borate level above 60 ppm reduces your pools susceptibility to algae quite a bit.

2. We don't normally recommend phosphate removal products, since if you keep your chlorine level adjusted, algae is usually not a problem regardless of phosphate levels. But, if you use them to lower your phosphates, and can avoid use of pool products containing phosphates, such as metal control products, then you can use phosphate removal products, during an algae episode, to lower levels so much that it virtually starves the algae. But, you'll need to test your fill water -- sometimes tap water has such high phosphates that this is not very practical.

3. Bromine. I'd consider this a sort of last resort. But adding sodium bromide to your pool, to produce a strong unstabilized halogen (bromine instead of chlorine) residual can also work. The downside is that your chlorine use will go WAY up during the period bromide is present, as it converts bromide to bromine. Eventually, things return to normal, since a small amount of the bromide is converted permanently to bromate on each conversion cycle, and the bromate is stable and doesn't interfere with pool chemistry.

If you choose to stay with high CYA, I'd recommend going ahead with borax. It doesn't cost that much, and gives you a margin of safety that's worthwhile. Waterbear, who has posted here for years, has found that it allows him to go on vacation for a week or so, without having to worry about algae on his return. He simply maintains chlorine levels, shocks before leaving, and then reports coming back to a clear pool. He reports that before borax, the pool was usually green on his return.

[chem geek]

I agree that the borates are probably the best insurance -- they are a mild algaecide so might not prevent algae completely if the FC gets to zero, but they'll certainly slow down the growth enough to prevent things getting really bad and along with regular chlorine should help against tougher types of algae.

One other algaecide approach to Ben's list is an ammonium product such as ammonium chloride. With chlorine in the water, this creates monochloramine which kills algae (at least green algae; I'm not so sure about yellow/mustard algae, not enough experience with that). The main advantage with the monochloramine approach, unlike the sodium bromide, is that you can get rid of the monochloramine by adding more chlorine. With sodium bromide, it can take some time to get rid of the bromine, though by not overdosing it might not take more than some number of weeks and having a bromine pool is not a disaster (mostly it's just a higher chlorine demand for a while).

[PoolDoc]

@ Chem_Geek

I've used monochloramine . . . and it works. But it's VERY irritating to swim in. In commercial pools, pre-season, 2 ppm got complaints from the guards and 5+ ppm ran them out of the pool with itchy red skin in minutes. Plus there seemed to be some sort of 're-bound' effect: the algae would clear, I'd achieve a CC< 0.5 ppm level, and then algae would return. It happened a couple of times, and I swore off the stuff, except for cleaning swamps.

I was focused on the outcome, and not on investigating what was happening, so I don't doubt that there may have been confounding factors. But it's left me very reluctant to recommend that approach.

I can testify it *does* result in a fast algae kill, and monochlor *will* penetrate sludge layers, rather than just oxidizing the top, like FC does.

It's fair to say, more research is needed. But I haven't had the opportunity.

[chem geek]

Ahh... I was thinking about the pool not being used while the algae was being battled and not thinking about something being used on an ongoing basis. I completely agree with you that you can't use the monochloramine approach on an ongoing basis. Sorry about that. Brain fart.

[PoolDoc]

Brain fart.

Ah, yes. I wish I did not also suffer from those.

I find that one of the 'virtues' of having websites, like mine, with 1,000's of my words preserved by Wayback,etc. is that the stink can linger for years. :(

[MikeM]

Hi Guys. I'm the OP on this thread, and thought I'd provide an update and ask a new question.

The yellow algae is back. It's in the same spot... where the floor and wall meet on a shady side, with a little less circulation than other areas. Last summer, with CYA in the 80-100 range, I raised FC to 20 and kept it there for about 3 weeks. I then let it fall and was maintaining between 8-12 all through Fall and Winter. There were probably 2-3 times I let the FC get below 8, but not for very long. The water looked very good until I noticed the algae was back about a week ago.

I want to whip this thing for good before swimming season starts. I checked CYA twice with the K2006 kit and also had the pool store check. Somehow it is DOWN to 32. It was very high 9 months ago (80-100). I have not drained any water and I have a cartridge filter, so I don't normally lose water. And of course, no slime over the winter. Question is: How could my CYA drop so much?

In any case, despite the surprisingly lower CYA, I have once again taken the FC up to 20 and I've maintained it there for the last week. I'm consuming 2.7ppm per day, which seems a little high. If any other suggestions on how to rid my pool of this beast, please let me know. Here are all my current numbers:

FC=22.5
CC=0
pH=7.6
TA=80
CYA=32
CH=250
Borates=50

Thanks for all the information and advice.

Mike

[PoolDoc]

Perfect! (You're the droid I'm looking for . . .)

Mustard algae susceptible pools are one of the puzzles we have NOT solved here on the forum. It is definitely an issue that exists, but I've never figured out why. Having run as many as 25 large pools (>100,000 gallons) in a summer season, I saw problems with certain pools, year after year, but never saw those problems on other pools, even though the pools were operated with the same chemistry and with similar loads.

I tried every treatment I could -- quats, polyquats, copper, even Simazine when that was still legal. None of those worked. It's continued to be an issue from me, since the one remaining local pool I service (~200,000 gallons) has always been susceptible to mustard algae.

The only two treatments I had not tried were borates (> 50 ppm) and phosphate removers (PO4 < 200 ppb). I decided to try one or the other on my local pool this winter, and went with phosphate removers simply because it worked out to be cheaper. It turns out the fill water in that part of town may be the problem: phosphate levels, exiting the tap, are around 3 ppm or 3,000 ppb. I haven't checked with the water company, but that may be typical for water companies with lots of old iron pipe in their service area, since certain phosphates help reduce iron corrosion.

I started dosing in September, and got PO4 < 250 ppm by November. (I was concerned about filter problems, but didn't encounter any.) The results have been spectacular! My chlorine consumption is 20% of what it has been in previous winters, and yet there is no algae whatsoever.

Your results offer a data point suggesting that borates may NOT be a solution to this problem. If you're willing to try, your pool would make a great second test point, especially since you have had recurrent mustard algae. It you're willing to give it a go, you need to do the following:

1. Order the Taylor phosphate kit. I've tried 4 or 5 kits. Most are awful. The AquaChek is not as bad, but is really only readable at low levels -- you can use it once your phosphate is very low, but it's not going to help you find out how high it is now.

Taylor Technologies K-1106 Phosphate test kit (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003V4QUDI/scouscho-20/)
Hach Company 562227 Phosphate Test Kit (Aqua-Check) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004L4RPW2/scouscho-20/)

2. Order 2 quarts of Clorox (was: Kem-Tek) phosphate remover (most phosphate removed per $ spent). If you like, you can wait to do this until after you've verified significant PO4 levels (ie, > 300 ppb).

Link to Chlorox brand phosphate remover DELETED -- product is HIGHLY diluted, and a very bad deal. Sorry!
Go to http://pool9.net/phosphates/ for current info


Kem-Tek is dropping its own brand, and replacing those products with identical ones bearing a "Clorox" label. Shipping from Amazon is currently delayed, because the product hasn't been distributed to all the Amazon warehouses, yet. There are also some reports of the Kem-Tek/Clorox product not removing what it should. For whatever reason this product seems to act more slowly than some others. Please wait a week before testing . . . but if you find that after a week it hasn't made the expected reductions, please post that info. Remember, only the Taylor phosphate kit can measure semi-accurately above 500 ppb (0.5 ppm).


3. Test your pool water, using a 3:1 dilution of distilled water to pool water. (Use distilled water in gallon jugs from Walmart). Multiply the result X4 for your PO4 level. If your PO4 level is low, you may need to test again, with no dilution. Assuming you find a significant PO4 level, THEN test your tap water, to get an idea of how much PO4 you're adding when you add water.

4. Once you're reading to begin lowering PO4, use *small* doses, and keep and eye on your filter. The pool I worked on has sand filters. DE filters may respond differently. The PO4 remover I used years ago clouded the pool and clogged filters, but I had no such problem this time. However, it may be different with DE, so start small and work up.

5. Meanwhile, maintain chlorine levels . . . and test water temperatures. Let me know what you find. I'm hoping you'll see the same results I did. I still don't think phosphate removers are for everyone, but I am really hoping they may be a solution for pools with recurrent mustard algae.

6. Ironically, solving the mustard algae problem *may* solve the disappearing CYA problem. Mustard algae forms a biofilm; some biofilms 'eat' CYA. It's possible the mustard algae biofilm is harboring bacteria that can eat your CYA.

Let me know; I'm excited!

[PoolDoc]

My bad -- cartridge filter rather than DE. Still, that's a different type than sand, so go slow.

[MikeM]

OK Ben, I'm game. I just ordered the Taylor phosphate kit. I'll hold off on the remover until I confirm my readings. I'll post my readings from the pool and tap after I get the Taylor kit.

Meanwhile, can you explain the cause-effect relationship between high PO4 and yellow algae? Or just refer me to some additional reading material?

Thanks,
Mike

[PoolDoc]

I'm glad to here you're going to try it; I'm really excited to see what happens.

Regarding mechanism -- phosphate is simply one of the key plant fertilizer components. If you garden (or farm), you've seen fertilizer ratings, like 10-10-10. These are NPK -- nitrogen/phosphate/potassium -- ratings and report the relative percentages of those plant nutrients in the fertilizer. You can use soil tests to find out if your soil needs more of one or the other nutrient, and match the fertilizer to the need, for example, applying 20-5-5 instead of 10-10-10.

Adding fertilizer, to match soil deficits, or crop needs, is what you do when you want plants to *grow*. Using phosphate remover is what you do when you do NOT want plants (algae!) to grow. Essentially, you are trying to remove, almost completely, a key plant nutrient: phosphates.

Please note that phosphate removal does NOT kill algae; it just makes it unhealthy and weak. You STILL have to chlorinate to kill it, but with low phosphates, it's much harder for the algae to recover from chlorine damage.

On many (most?) pools there's no need for this: chlorine destroys the algae just fine without weakening it by creating a phosphate deprived environment. But, some pools recurrently harbor chlorine resistant algae,

Why? I don't know!

But, on at least one such pool (the large country club pool I service), removing phosphates has resulted in substantial changes in the 'health' of the algae present. I don't yet know if this pool has previously had unusually high phosphate levels, or not. But I do know that with very low phosphate levels, the resistant algae this pool has ALWAYS harbored is not growing, and chlorine demand is way down.

I'm hoping that your pool, which has apparently also suffered recurrent mustard algae IN SPITE of high chlorine, may proved to be a second case. I'd *love* to be able to selectively recommend phosphate use, if it solves the problem some users have with recurrent algae.

[BigDave]

My pool also has had recurrent mustard algae problems despite high chlorine levels. I've kept it in check with slightly elevated FC and regular use of my robotic cleaner. Last year the robot failed and I went with brush and vacuum. The Yellow Beast started appearing in corners, liner seams and depressions in the floor. Several weeks of ++SHOCK++ levels and daily brushing didn't eradicate it.

My pool has solar panel heat and I use a solar blanket to retain heat. These may contribute to my difficulty removing the Mustard Algae.

I'd like to join this phosphate removal study this summer as well (now the pool is ice) - if I may.

Should I start a new thread or keep this all together here.

[PoolDoc]

By all means, please do. I'm particularly looking for people with some testing experience, so we can get a better idea of what's going on.

Let's keep the discussion altogether here, for now. If it's needed, I can pull apart the posts into two threads.

[CarlD]

I'm absolutely fascinated! For years we've railed against pool stores selling "Phosphate Reducer" and worse, annual contracts for it--as mainly a waste of money and had scads of pools with "high phosphate" levels that never had a problem.

Now we have a workable, truly testable hypothesis: that when a pool is suffering from Mustard algae, phosphate reduction may actually BE the way to finally solve it! If this turns out to be true, we will have another simple, clear-cut tool in our tool-box!

Since my pool is still a skating rink under the cover (despite warm days we are still waking up to the 'teens') I won't be much help in testing! :)

[chem geek]

As for the Borates not helping, this link (http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc204.htm#SubSectionNumber:9.1.1) gives some info on borates inhibiting algae growth. The algae listed are Scenedesmus quadricauda, Scenedesmus subspicatus, and Microcystis aeruginosa, where the first two are green algae and the last one is a type of black algae. Though there are many types of algae, the three main groups we describe for pools are 1) green algae which are plants in the phylum Chlorophyta which contain chlorophyll a and b, 2) yellow/mustard algae which are in the kingdom Chromista (e.g. phylum Heterokontaphyta class Xanthophyceae with a cell wall of cellulose impregnated with silica) which contain chlorophyll a and c, and 3) black algae which are in the phylum Cyanobacteria (sometimes called blue-green algae but they are not plants) which contain chlorophyll d and/or f. 50 ppm Borates has roughly 50% or more inhibition against green algae, a small uncertain amount of inhibition against black algae, and an unknown inhibition against yellow/mustard algae. Given how yellow/mustard algae is generally more resistant to chemical attack in general, it is not surprising that the borates are not very effective against it.

[MikeM]

OK, I got the Taylor K-1106 phosphate kit. The pool water is indeed high, around 800 ppb. I tested 3 times... once diluted, twice non-diluted, and results were consistent. However, the tap water is zero... no hint of blue whatsoever in two non-diluted tests. So, I'm not sure what the source of the high phosphate would have been.

In any case, I have now ordered the Kem-Tek 265-6 phosphate remover and I'll begin dosing after I receive it.

FYI, I've been maintaining FC at 20+ for the last 5 weeks, and this is with relatively low CYA of 32. Daily consumption averages around 3 ppm. After brushing, the algae returns to the same spot about 2-3 days later, without fail. Here are the rest of my current numbers:

FC=20.5
CC=0
pH=7.7
TA=75
CYA=32
CH=260
Borates=50

Thanks again,
Mike

[PoolDoc]

Interesting. That pretty much rules out borates as having much impact on mustard algae. It's also amazing that you're having recurrent algae with FC=20 and CYA only 30 ppm.

I have to say, that while I'm sorry for your problems, I'm glad for the opportunity to test this out. The fact that you have no phosphates in your tap water certainly makes things easier. You will need to practice extreme vigilance in what chemicals you use, and avoid using ANY products made by United Chemicals, as well as most stain/scale products. You probably want to avoid clarifiers, flocs and any other 'enhancement' products.

But even there it will be interesting to track your phosphates, to see what makes them rise, after you lower them.

Thanks so much!

[BigDave]

Big Dave's Mustard Algae Experiment contribution:
I took the cover off March 26 and topped up.
After adding water, the FC was 10.5, CC 0.0, CYA < 30, and pH 7.4; temp. 64 F. No sign of mustard algae.
Over the next three weeks, I chlorinated with a total of 5lbs of dichlor keeping the FC at 15-20.
The pool collected quite a bit of debris during this period that I vacuumed into the filter; Backwashed on June 15.
June 16, FC 8.0, CC 0.0, CYA 70, pH 7.4, TA 80, CH 11, borates 30; temp. 78 F. No sign of mustard algae.
June 17, FC 7.0, CC 0.0, pH 7.4; temp. 83 F. No sign of mustard algae. We took our first swim - Yay!
June 18, FC 5.0, CC 0.0, pH 7.4; temp. 88 F. No sign of mustard algae, Kids swim. Added Bleach.

I'm not sure If I'll be a good case - time will tell. I've disposed of our old solar blanket that I suspect was harborage for the algae.
With the K-1106, I measure > 1000 ppb phosphate in my pool and 500 ppb phosphate in my fill water.
I have 2 quarts of Kem-Tek phosphate remover on hand and plan to bring the phosphate to 100 ppb.
I also plan to buy a new solar cover in July - We'll see if that brings the yellow back.

[MikeM]

Hi all. OP here, with an update. As posted before, my phosphate was quite high, in the 800-1000+ range. I ordered 2 quarts of the Clorox phosphate remover as suggested, and added it slowly over a couple weeks. No problem with the filter or clouding. But zero impact on phosphate level also. Still very dark blue using the K-1106 kit. I waited 2 weeks after treatment to re-measure. Very disappointed in that product.

Needless to say, I still have the mustard algae. It comes back every 1-2 days after brushing. With the very hot temps here in North Texas, it's been a little worse than usual.

Anyway, I'm looking for new suggestions on a phosphate remover that actually works, so we can continue this experiment. My local pool store has several products, but I'll defer to the experts here.

Thanks,
Mike

P.S. I've been maintaining FC in the 6-10 range. Here are the latest numbers:

FC=9.4
CC=0
pH=7.7
TA=75
CYA=37
CH=230
Borates=50

[chem geek]

The Orenda PR10,000 (http://orendatech.com/pr10000/) is one effective product and reasonably priced for the amount of phosphate it removes. A pint is around $25 and will remove 5000 ppb per 10,000 gallons so should be more than enough for your pool.

[MikeM]

Thanks chem geek. If those numbers are right, I would only need about an ounce of that product for my situation. Sounds like it may be too concentrated for normal residential pool use.

[chem geek]

You need to remove 1000 ppb from 18,000 gallons and for their product one quart (32 fluid ounces) removes 10,000 ppb from 10,000 gallons so you need (32 fluid ounces) * (1000 ppb / 10,000 ppb) * (18,000 gallons / 10,000 gallons) = 5.76 fluid ounces, NOT one ounce. Their pint has 16 fluid ounces so has more than you need, but it's not extraordinary and I don't think you'll find a less expensive bottle of another product.

[MikeM]

OK, my mistake. I reversed the 18/10 in my quick calculation. A couple quick questions: does this product contain a clarifier? Or will I need to buy a separate product for that? Where can I actually buy it? The orendatech.com site does not appear to have any sales functionality. I checked Amazon but they only sell 5 and 15 gallon sizes (a wee bit more than I need). A few pool sites appear to offer the smaller sizes, but not at the price you mentioned. Thanks.

[FormerBromineUser]

Chem Geek may be on later with his pricing although $25 may have been just an approximation. I have been looking to purchase some also. The cheapest I can find online for 1 pint is $23.91 plus $9.99 shipping for a total of $33.90. There is a store in McKinney (near Dallas) that has it in stock for $28.95 plus $2.39 tax totaling $31.34.

[MikeM]

Thanks. I'm not too far from McKinney, so that might be an option to get it into my pool quicker.

[FormerBromineUser]

McKinney Pools
1905 University Business Drive
Suite 602
McKinney, Texas 75071
972-542-9223

[MikeM]

That's even closer than I thought. Thanks again.

[FormerBromineUser]

You are welcome. Glad to help. I am just trying to help out where I can with PoolDoc semi-away.

[Pappy]

If you enter "orenda pr 10000" (including the quotes) YourTown, TX into google, example - "orenda pr 10000" Plano, TX - you might find it right around the corner from you.

Good luck!

Pappy

[chem geek]

OK, my mistake. I reversed the 18/10 in my quick calculation. A couple quick questions: does this product contain a clarifier? Or will I need to buy a separate product for that?
It does not have a clarifier and yes it will cloud the water but that will filter out so you'd only use a clarifier if you were impatient. If you want a clarifier, a couple of good ones are GLB Clear Blue and BioGuard Polysheen Blue.

Yes, my $25 was based on online prices but without shipping.

[FormerBromineUser]

Did you get it?

[MikeM]

Did you get it?

No. That store in McKinney has none in stock. In fact, no pool store within reasonable driving distance stocks the Orenda PR-10000. I've checked them all. I've not been able to find a reasonable online source either. All the online sellers fall into one or more of these categories:

1. Only sell the larger sizes.
2. Want to charge $15-25 to ship one pint.
3. Look really sketchy, like a 12-year-old built the website.

I don't understand why Amazon only sells the industrial size containers. Anyway, is there another product that you guys recommend, which I can actually get my hands on, preferably via Amazon? I was thinking about Kem-Tek. But PoolDoc had indicated that the Clorox product (which didn't work for me) is a re-labeled version of Kem-Tek. So I'm not sure that's a good option. There is a SeaKlear commercial phosphate remover which claims to remove 9000ppb per 10kgal for $43 and free shipping (1 qt). I think that makes it a better value than Orenda anyway, especially with free shipping, and almost same effectiveness. Any experience with this product?

Thanks!

[BigDave]

I'm working on the third quart of Kem-Tek this summer and from my somewhat casual observation it removes less phosphate than the label indicates - very close to the label of the chlorox product. On the positive side, My's pool's phosphate level has been below 125ppb since early August and the mustard algae has not returned. It did reappear in late July when the phosphate level was about 250ppb.

[FormerBromineUser]

PoolDoc is sold on using Orenda. I found 9.99 shipping but am out of town now and can't check where I found it. It was 33.90 with shipping and the store had good ratings. I think I used yahoo shopping.

[MikeM]

I found 9.99 shipping but am out of town now and can't check where I found it. It was 33.90 with shipping and the store had good ratings. I think I used yahoo shopping.

OK, I finally found the site you are referring to using Google Shopping. Very sketchy. The site has at least 4 or 5 different variants with slightly different content and pricing, which makes me distrustful right from the start. But also, they add $4.50 handling fee at checkout, so the total delivered price is right at ~$40 for one pint. Shipping and handling is almost as much as the product itself.

Not trying to be cheap here. I just don't trust internet retailers that set up multiple websites with similar content but slightly different pricing. Then advertise a low-ball price to appear competitive on Google Shopping, and pile on bogus charges at checkout. I won't buy from them on principle alone, assuming they even exist. I went to scamadviser.com, and got the following for all the site variants: "The website has been newly registered with a short life expectancy, which follows the pattern used by many fraudulent and fake selling websites. Please be vigilant and take extra care before providing any payment information."

Here are some of the variants, 4 of which appear in the top 5 on Google Shopping for the Orenda product, but have no seller ratings:

http://www.poolandspapartsnow.com/
http://www.allpoolandspaparts.com/
http://www.poolandspapartsmart.com/
http://www.poolandspapartstoday.com/
http://www.poolandspapartssuperstore.com/

So, I'm still looking for a legitimate source for this Orenda product, or a more cost-effective alternative.

I keep coming back to the SeaKlear commercial product which has nearly same effectiveness (per the label) as Orenda, but I can get twice as much for my $40, and use Amazon instead of all these sketchy online pool sites.

[PoolDoc]

Good catch on the SeaKlear Commercial at Amazon; $44/quart with free shipping and 9,000 ppb/10k gallons is a good deal.


SeaKlear Commercial Phosphate Remover Quart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CMQZZJ6/scouscho-20/)
GLB Clear Blue Clarifier (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXKWK/scouscho-20/)

We do need to confirm efficacy.

[MikeM]

OP here with a quick update. I was able to procure a pint of Orenda PR10000 for a reasonable price online, $24 plus $6 shipping. I've been dosing over the last several weeks. In theory, I should have only needed 5.7oz to reduce my 18kgal pool by 1000ppb. After two quarts of the Clorox product, plus 12oz of the PR10000, I'm still at ~300-400ppb phosphates. I just added the last 4oz of the Orenda product to see if I can get a little closer to 125ppb. Either my water was a lot higher than 1000ppb or these products remove far less phosphate than indicated on the label. I've had very minor clouding for about an hour after each dosing, then it clears up by itself. I used no clarifier. The pressure on my cartridge filter has gone up *maybe* 2psi. Anyway, I've been at this since mid July, and still don't have the phosphates down where I want them. I still have the yellow algae although it's less noticable... could be the lower phosphates or the lower water temps. CYA is 37 and I've been keeping FC in the 6-10 range.

[MikeM]

Just another quick update... It's been one week since I added the last 4 oz of PR10000. The phosphates are right at 200 ppb. The effectiveness of this Orenda product is no where close to what's indicated on the label. Anyway, I'm done for this year. The water temps are down in the mid 70s and the yellow algae still returns, but much more slowly than before. After brushing, it takes about 3-4 days to notice the algae (vs 1-2 days previously), and it's a much smaller growth than before... probably some combination of lower phosphates and lower temperatures. FC consumption is steady at 2.5 ppm per day. My cartridge filter pressure is at 19 psi, up from 12 psi after the last cleaning in May, which is maybe 2-3 psi higher than it would normally be, absent any phosphate removal process.

[JimK]

Thanks for the update.

That's disappointing that the PR10000 isn't near as effective as advertised. I've been keeping an eye on this thread should I ever decide to lower phosphates.

Edit: I just noticed I've been upgrade to "Verb Herder". Hmmm...is that a complement or an insult...lol. :D

[FormerBromineUser]

I am disappointed too. Congrats on the Verb Herder! You're in the Big Time now, buddy!