Using HydroPureTech cartridges to deal with Iron

[jeffstang]

I have a very hard well with super high iron content. I found the metaltrap 6 at http://hydropuretechnologies.com/ that removes just about all the iron from your water right from the hose. i just buy a new cartridge every season and the well water is no longer an issue for me except for the calcium hardness. this thing is great for make up water and topping off the pool when you opn in the spring.

[PoolDoc]

Jeff, I copied your post to a separate thread, so your filter cartridges could be discussed separately. How many seasons have you used these?

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I couldn't find as much as I'd like about them, and what I did find was a bit dodgy. So, color me skeptical.

Here's what I did find:

+ Domain record for hydropuretechnologies.com shows the domain is owned/controlled by

HydroPure Technologies.com
Rachel Ansari
3811 University Blvd W, Suite 21
Jacksonville, Florida 32217
Phone: +1.9047306726
Email: admin@hydropuretechnologies.com
Last modified: 2012-10-16 14:59:45 GMT
and

HydroPure Technologies.com
Gregory Childress
1562 Holly Oaks Lake Rd E
Jacksonville, Florida 32225
Phone: +1.9046425302

+ On the website, the claim is made that the biz is BBB accredited, but the BBB site says it is NOT:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jeJbOEGQ6uU/UeBj77dq3LI/AAAAAAAAFz8/rIZwrjBGF-w/s751/BBB-accredited.jpg

http://www.hydropuretechnologies.com/products/METALTRAP-Auto%252dfill-Dual-Filter-System-6.html

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https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IU3CfrfBCcw/UeBj8Uva0mI/AAAAAAAAF0A/n8IJtWTJ8FU/s708/BBB-not.jpg

http://www.bbb.org/north-east-florida/business-reviews/water-filtration-and-purification-equipment/hydropure-technologies-inc-in-jacksonville-fl-194824828/?compid=194824828

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+ The home water treatment business has, for years, been pretty dodgy, with many bogus or even outright dishonest claims made. There's nothing on the Hydro Pure site that makes me think they are bogus -- but there's also nothing that makes me think they are not. They do not describe ANY mode of operation, any PPM removed or ANY technical data at all on the MetalTrap cartridge performance. That does not reassure me.

[jeffstang]

i am currently topping off my pool now. this is the second season using the metaltrap 6 and now the bbb method as well no more high priced chemicals or flocculants ect!! my neighbor who has been using one for five years or so in his pool and in his rv is who recommend it to me and i am grateful for the recommendation. i read some of the posts on the forum regarding well water issues and so many of those issues can be avoided simply by a good iron filter. i have tried multiple filters from the local home improvement stores with no success. my pool is solar heated and the water evaporates quickly over night along with three kids using the pool daily so i need to add makeup water once or twice a week. water discoloration and staining is no longer an issue. the well water blues are over except for the calcium hardness issue that i cant due anything about anyway. as far as bbb accreditation goes i was a little concerned at first because of the $100+ investment, however based on the personal recommendation from my neighbor i overlooked any reviews positive or negative and just made the purchace and now im a repeat customer, word of mouth goes a long way with me. i don't work for them or solicit in any way i just thought i would share a darn good product that actually works and saves me money and aggravation with a well water pool.

[PoolDoc]

i am currently topping off my pool now. this is the second season using the metaltrap 6
my neighbor who has been using one for five years or so in his pool and in his rv is who recommend it to me and i am grateful.

It it works for you . . . it works for you. I'm glad it does.

But, you have to understand that, with over 25 years in the pool business, I've seen product after product be promoted as the greatest thing since sliced bread. For the first 10 years or so that I was in the biz, I ran out and tried almost everything I heard about . . . and then I watched almost all of them -- way more than 90% -- turn out to be duds. And some of those that do work, don't work well enough to make it worth using them.

So, I'm skeptical.

For example, we started tentatively recommending the CuLator product last year. It does appear to work . . . but only very slowly. I still think it may be worth using, but only as a long-term maintenance aid. It doesn't really help clean up a current mess, though it appears to help prevent a recurrence.

The Metal6 product may be as good as you say. But the website hit a number of warning triggers I've learned to recognize. It doesn't mean they are bad, but it does mean that prudence dictates even more caution than normal.

I'm not trying to prevent anyone from trying it. But we won't recommend it this year. Next year (2014), if we hear positive things from you and a few others, we may change. But for now, we're going to recommend caution.

[jeffstang]

PoolDoc i understand where you are coming from. you probably deal with people trying to promote their business and their products on this site all the time. im not affiliated with this company in any way. if you recommend caution that's your duty as a moderator and its your reputation thats at risk. i understand. however, sometime you get so frustrated with the same problems over and over and several suggestions that don't work that you have to take a chance and just try things. i just took the $125 chance on a recommendation and it has saved me so much money and aggravation i just thought i would share it with other people who are dealing with the problems i no longer have.

[PoolDoc]

Like I said, we're very open to the possibility of new products that do work . . . so I really do hope you follow up next season with a positive report.

[BJohnston]

Like I said, we're very open to the possibility of new products that do work . . . so I really do hope you follow up next season with a positive report.

Has anyone tried this since last season? Any follow up from anyone or OP? I am on well water and am looking for options to be able to use it to filter my top off water.

Background: My water has been tested 7-8 times from different water people since I moved into my new house this past Oct. with varying results of having traces amounts of iron or having none. I have an old softener (~20 yrs) that seemed to be working but I was in the market for a new one. I can attribute some of these varying results to a old hot water heater, and some iron fittings being used on my system. I have since replace the hot water heater with a new one, which has no effect on my pool fill up, and removed all (except for a couple of special fittings an check valve) of the metal plumbing between my well and softener and replace with PVC.

I have not yet performed a bucket test or had my water retested since the PVC replacement so that's something I need to take care of soon. I just got my K-2000 kit in the mail a few days ago. I'm just doing some homework and saw this post. If in fact I do still have some trace amounts of iron, I would like to filter them out before going into my pool. Currently I have orange/brown steps which I am working out a plan to fix today, hopefully to a minimal degree before a BBQ party tomorrow. I was able to remove most of it previously with HTH metal remover so I know that there is some iron in my pool, probably from the previous owner's top offs.

[PoolDoc]

Do you have a skimmer?

If you do, there's a way to use cal hypo tablets in conjunction with a sand filter to continuously remove iron and other metals.

[BJohnston]

Yes I do. I have been doing more reading and see suggestions to use both Cal Hypo or Tri-Chlor.

I am leaning towards using the Tri-Chlor because my CYA is low and needs replenished. I also have CYA I can add on its own so I'm not sure which way will be the best.

I need to retest my numbers when I get home, I did not get a chance to this morning before heading off to work. what are the upside/down side to using Cal-Hypo vs. Tri-Chlor assuming I need to add CYA anyway?

[PoolDoc]

For dealing with iron, cal hypo is much better. The only downside to cal hypo is that you MUST use it the way I instruct you to do, or your will end up with calcium that is too high. Well, I guess the fact that you may not need as much as you'll have to buy is a downside. It will keep till next year, but will be 'stinky' when you open it next spring

This is the ONLY product I've found that you'd want to use:
CCH Calcium Hypochlorite Tablets 50 lb bucket (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H81OM08/scouscho-20/)

The Arch cal hypo tablets contain 25% or more magnesium sulfate, and you don't want that in your pool.

[BJohnston]

Wow, that will be quite an investment. I don't know if my iron issues are that severe to justify the cost currently. Do they have that in any smaller amounts?

My fiberglass steps seem to be the only thing being effected currently. They are orange/brown. I have 1.75 lbs of natural chem stain free, I know its only Citric acid, and could get a better price elsewhere, but I was in a rush and decided to buy it at the local Pool "Steal" while I was there getting some misc fittings and parts. I am going to by a culator 4ppm but haven't clicked the purchase button just yet.

I have a party tomorrow and was going to try to minimize the ugly brown steps and make it look half decent so that people aren't afraid to swim or have everyone ask me the same ???'s about it. I was hoping to just get it managed and then address it permanently afterwards. I know there are a lot of different options that people have used so like I said in the beginning, I'm just trying to do my homework before I go to far in the wrong direction.

I successfully used HTH metal control to reduce/remove the staining (aka put it back into solution) but now its back again. I assume due to high chlorine from shocking recently. So I'm assuming that I can replicate that with the stain free. Am I wandering down the wrong path with this one or can this be an ok start/temp fix?

[PoolDoc]

Do NOT use citric acid.

If you want to re-dissolve the iron, use ascorbic acid. But remember that NEITHER are compatible with chlorine.

You need to get clear on the difference between dissolving iron, and removing iron. The ascorbic acid will help redissolve iron where it has stained surfaces. But it will do NOTHING to actually remove it from the pool -- rather it just *moves* the iron from the stains ON the pool to the water IN the pool.

By contrast, the cal hypo will do NOTHING to help with the stains, but it will enable you to remove the iron that is IN the water.

The expensive of the cal hypo is not an 'extra' expense, like ascorbic acid will be. Rather, it will become THE way you chlorinate. The reason for using it is that WHILE it chlorinates, if you use it correctly, it will ALSO remove iron FROM the pool water and deposit ONTO the calcium dust collected by your filter. From there, both the dust and the iron will be actually removed from your pool each time you backwash.

[BJohnston]

PoolDoc,

I thought that citric & ascorbic acids basically worked and behaved the same way, abeit ascorbic acid was more efficient? Just curious on why you recommend not using citric?

I guess I should clarify why I said "citric" acid. I wanted to use Natural Chemistry's "Stain Free" which they advertise as *100% citric acid* maybe this is simply a mis-labeling? They also have an Extra Strength that they say is 100% ascorbic acid.

Sorry to give the wrong impression earlier... I understand the differences between "removing" and "dissolving" the iron back into solution. I also understand that once the citric or ascorbic acid is applied, the iron is still in my water and can "fall" out of solution again and re-stain things. I do not want this to happen. I also understand the incompatible relationship that chlorine and these acids have with one another.

I am interested in hearing more on your method for using cal hypo to remove iron and for how it will effect my calcium numbers. I will have to re test to see, but the last time I checked, my Calcium was up around 290.

[PoolDoc]

Citric acid combines with chlorine to form toxic trihalomethanes. It's not clear whether this is an issue on outdoor pools, but since ascorbic acid works better, is cheaper (when purchases as ascorbic acid rather than pool chemical) and doesn't have this issue with toxic byproducts . . . citric acid ends up on the DO-NOT-USE list.

Plus, it irritates me no end that Natural Chemistry doesn't provide users with enough info to use the products effectively.

[BJohnston]

Good to know.

Can you explain to me a little more about using cal hypo to remove my iron? I'm still pretty new to this forum and learning how to do many things.

My calcium measured around 290 the last time I measured it. Will cal hypo make that go up? Keep in mind I have a IG vinyl pool.

How long will I need to used it before going back to 8.25% bleach as my main chlorine source?

My CYA is <20 so should I adding some during this time? (I thought maybe using Tri Chlor INSTEAD of cal hypo would be acceptable because my CYA is so low)

Still not completely clear on the method to follow. I have looked at some of the other methods suggesting to keep chlorine low, obviously so the ascorbic can work correctly, and to use a sequestering agent after stains are removed. Also using Polyquat 60 during this time to keep algae down. Can you please provide a step by step for the method to follow?

[PoolDoc]

If you use it the way I want you to do, you end up depositing calcium carbonate dust (like pool plaster dust) on the filter. In addition, you are chlorinating in an alkaline (high pH ) solution, via the cal hypo.

+ Chlorine + high pH tends to convert the iron from a soluble form, to an insoluble form.
+ The calcium dust gives it an attractive place to 'land'.
+ When you backwash, you can remove the stained calcium dust, getting both the dust AND the iron out of your pool.

Using the cal hypo this way, you MUST let your pH, TA, and CH 'float'. The result will be water that is slightly over-saturated in calcium -- but that's good in this situation. Your individual CH level may go up slightly, OR it may come down a bit.

You'll need to continue doing this till all the iron is out of the pool.

By the way, this should not be much more expensive than using bleach. 1 gallon of bleach is roughly equivalent to 1 pound of cal hypo, in chlorine content.

You seem to be missing something regarding the effect of the sequestering agents: their effect is TEMPORARY. Until you remove the iron from your pool, you STILL have a problem. A sequestering agent simply hides the problem for awhile.

The COMPLETE process for dealing with stains is this:

1. De-chlorinate so a metal dissolving agent can be used (ascorbic acid, citric acid (Not recommended), sodium hydrosulfite, etc)
2. Add polyquat 60 so the pool doesn't turn green during treatment.
3. Add the dissolving agent (ascorbic acid, etc.)
4. Immediately add HEDP to KEEP the dissolved metals in the water.
5. Re-chlorinate gradually.
6. REMOVE the metals from the water via CuLator (ion exchange) or enhanced filtration (cal hypo, alum coating, etc.)

Another option is to DRAIN the pool after step #3, and refill with metal free water.

[BJohnston]

Ben,

Thanks for clearing that up and all of your helpful information, it is much appreciated. I do indeed understand that sequestering is a temporary effect and that staining can return, which is why I have so many more questions of how to successfully "remove" the iron from my water. I Just started the process yesterday.

My Chlorine level is .5 or less.
I added Polyquat 60 with my pump running on filter.
Waited 20 mins, then shut off pump to apply stain remover to fiberglass steps.
I used Natural Chem's Stain Free to remove stains from fiberglass steps, since I had already purchased it a few days ago unfortunately.
I also used SeaKlear Metal Klear, as a sequestering agent, again I had already purchased it unfortunately, it was available at my local pool store.

Results Yesterday:
The steps immediately began to turn back white. After about 30 mins they are all white except for a few vertical surfaces.
The pool looks clear and better than ever. I resumed pump/filtering. Maintaining low chlorine level. I also took the time to top off my pool. Used my hose connection outside that utilizes water that passes thru my water softener and whole house carbon filter. Filled thru skimmer basket with pump running.

This morning:
The entire pool is sparkling clear! all of the stains are gone off of the steps, vertical surfaces and all. a few other minor stains in the bottom of my deep end are gone as well and minor discoloration on my skimmer inlet are all gone. Everything that is supposed to be white is now. Aside from probably paying way more than I needed to for chemicals, they seem to have worked perfectly.

Now for my questions:
1) Can I use CuLator in conjunction with Cal Hypo or would that be pointless (waste of money, incompatible with each other, etc.) ??
2) If only recommending to use one method or the other, which one seems to be better, easier, or produce the best results? (keep in mind my iron issue seems to be minor)
3) If using both together, how do I apply them? CuLator in skimmer sock with Cal Hypo in bottom of skimmer basket? Could I add one to the skimmer basket on pump?
3) If using Cal Hypo, my CYA is low (Less than 20 when I measured), Should I add CYA to bring up to proper levels, and if so when?
4) My CH levels when measured yesterday before starting were 290~300. If I'm letting the CH "float" will it creep up too high for my vinyl pool? (I assume no because of iron attaching to calcium carbonate "dust" precipitate and it getting caught in filter?)
5) How do I know that all of my iron is gone for good, watch for re-staining? If this is the case, how do I address the new stain? repeat process of stain removing and sequestering?
6) What are my options for preventing this in the future when topping off from my well? Aside from filling from my softened/filtered water, use Cal Hypo during that time or CuLator packet?

Also, draining and refilling with metal free water are not options for me at this time. Plus my metal issue seems to be a minor one to me, so I believe it can be addressed using the method you have described and I am willing to give it a try.

I'm sorry if I that's too many questions. browsing here, I see a lot of similar questions being asked and I know it must get tiring to say the same things over and over again. I have tried to search and read older posts regarding this issue as much as possible, but still am unsure about things. I am hungry to learn how to manage my pool and make it look amazing. I'm an engineer by trade, so finding solutions to fix problems is in my blood, I can't help it. So is being long winded sometimes :-/

[PoolDoc]

1. The CuLator packs work very slowly. It won't hurt to have them in the pool, but I'd just suspend them near a return, anytime you are using the cal hypo.

2. The CuLator is probably best for long-term maintenance. Reportedly, it can collect iron that is chelated or sequestered. Cal hypo will not -- though it does have some tendency to 'break' the sequestration.

3. above.

4. Yes, add CYA. Or use some dichlor in addition to the cal hypo. If you buy a 24# pack of dichlor at Sams Club, it will add about 160 ppm of chlorine to your pool, and about 140 ppm of CYA (too much!). If you use the dichlor to quickly rechlorinate, that will immediately add some CYA. The 1# bagged dichlor will keep till next season, which matters, since you won't need it all this year.

5. I have not seen good results from iron testing: I've repeatedly seen pools stained when iron tests indicated no iron. So, yes, you have to wait for the stains.

6. Use a blended strategy: when refilling add a small dose of HEDP chelant; fill with softened water SLOWLY; fill via the skimmer after adding cal hypo tabs to the skimmer; keep Culator packs in the skimmer when not filling.

A couple of points:

=> I do not know that "Natural Chemistry" is intentionally selling products that are likely to produce apparent quick results followed later by failure. But if that WERE their purpose, they are selling the right products to do so. I'd recommend abandoning them as a supplier.

Their chelant is non-phosphate based . . . which means it doesn't add to the phosphate nutrient load and ALSO that it's not chlorine stable. Right now, with the chemicals available to the pool trade, there is a clash between maintaining low phosphates and using effective chelants. It is *possible* to do both, but the situation is not ideal.

What makes it worse is that there is no reliable supplier of plain HEDP (the desired chemical). The closest we can come is the Pink Stuff on Amazon. (Link in the stain sticky).

=> Working out a successful method of managing metals is an individual process, and takes time. I've done it several times on large commercial pools with challenging supply water, but it's always taken me a couple of seasons to get the process tweaked 'just so'. If there's an optimal one-size-fits-all approach, I haven't found it yet.