King Technology Pool Frog system AND green pool

[Winicott]

Hello All. I am a three year pool owner and I am still struggling to get my pool where it needs to be. I joined this site to see what I could learn to do reduce the frustration caused by my green cloudy pool.

I have a Pool Frog Mineral System and I hate it. I assumed it was some kind of user error, so I am in search of the resident pool frog master who can lead me out of the cloudy green haze my UG 27' round is experiencing.

I clearly need to buy the recommended test kit to start.

I am also open to throwing the Pool Frog into the nearest space time rift and make it the problem of some other part of the multiverse and move on to the BBB method (but not until next season since I spent like $200 on mineral pack and algicide)

Thanks for any assistance.

[BigDave]

Hey, It just occurred to me, Frogs love green ponds.

When you're ready, we'll be here to help.

[Winicott]

Thanks Dave.

Update: Water tested on low end of pH at 6.8 Put in 2/3 box of borax and pH is up to 7.2. I will add some more to see if I can tweak it up another .3.

The only thing I could find on the site regarding Borax as it relates to pH was one guy posted he was getting .1 increase per box of borax in a 20k gal pool. Mine clearly increased faster. Why is this?

Shocking tonight with 12% liquid chlorine.

I found the info on the sister site. Based on that I took out the Back Pac since the chlorine there is stabilized. I want to keep the CYA levels low until I am done burning off all the amonia and the like from the pool being closed for so long.

[PoolDoc]

I am also open to throwing the Pool Frog into the nearest space time rift and make it the problem of some other part of the multiverse and move on to the BBB method (but not until next season since I spent like $200 on mineral pack and algicide)

If you have a conveniently located space-time rift, we definitely would recommend taking advantage of it, but we normally suggest just using the trash can for non-chemical debris . . . and "mineral cartridges".

Go ahead and use up your chlorine cartridges, however. You can't throw them away safely. However if you remove all the copper stuff, you can switch to BBB and simply allow the chlorine side of the Frog to feed whatever it can, while you treat the pool normally otherwise.

I'm sorry you've already spent $200 on mineral packs, but unless you can get a refund, that money is gone. Actually using the mineral packs will only make things worse.

Right now you need to get a copper test result . . . if your copper is high, dumping a bunch of chlorine in can leave stains all over the place.

Here's what's probably safest:

1. Get a copper test result from your local Frog dealer. If it's over 0.3 ppm, you definitely have the potential for stains. (Since the tests aren't accurate, you are STILL at risk even with a low result, but what can you do?)

2. Meanwhile, get a cheap local OTO/phenol red test kit. (yellow / red drops)

3. Start running your pump 24/7 if you aren't already doing so.

4. Adjust your pH, as needed to the LOW end of the scale (7.0 - 7.2)

5. Begin chlorinating with plain 8.25% household bleach, using multiple small (1/4 gallon) doses added via the skimmer. (NO tablets in the skimmer!!) Gradually raise your chlorine over 48 hours to the medium yellow range (2- 3 ppm) and hold there, with chlorine added 2x daily.

6. And (a) order a K2006, (b) read the Best Guess page, (c) read the muriatic acid page (all linked in my signature block) and the polyquat page (www.poolsolutions.com/polyquat.html). Polyquat is a way to control algae and clarify a pool, without raising chlorine very high, even if your stabilizer is high. Whether it will help you a lot depends on your stabilizer level.

8. Report K2006 results when you have them.

[Winicott]

Awesome! Thanks for the detailed reply. Once I have completed some of the tasks assigned I will let you know how it is turning out.

pH has already been raised to 7.5 per the instructions in the PoolSolutions Guides. Do I drop it back down to your recommended levels? Pool is just being opened now (long story that has nothing to do with water chemistry. Yes I know it is late in the season :( ).

I have already dumped 4lbs of 85% powder shock in and the FC was at 0 in less than 24 hours. I also added one bottle of the Pool Frog Algicide.

I am going under the assumption that the CYA has all biodegraded since the FC disappeared in less than 24 hours and Pool Frog Bac Pacs use stabilized cholorine. So I am in the process of stabilizing per what I read in the PoolSolution Guides.

TL;DR I just opened the thing. Does that change your advice?

Thanks a ton and rock on.

[PoolDoc]

I wouldn't use the mineral pack, no matter what. Use the chlorine.

When dealing with algae, anywhere between 7.0 and 8.0 is fine, unless you are using ammonia sulfate (Yellow Out, etc) which we do NOT recommend.

[Winicott]

Took water to pool store. Did not get full results since I dropped sample off and just really wanted Copper and CYA levels so I got them over phone quick.

CYA is 11
Copper is 1
Iron .1
This morning FC was 1.5, down .5 from last night (Yes, I brought it up faster than you suggested). I added more this morning to bring it back up to the 2-3 level.
pH is still holding steady at 7.5 this morning.

No staining that I can tell thus far, but I am concerned that copper number is high.
Water still cloudy. Can't see bottom. Filter pressure is continuing to rise, so I assume things are dying and being filtered out.
Pump running 24/7 for three days now.

What next? I am thinking (which could be the first problem) that I should shock THEN raise CYA since the shock threshold is lower when the CYA is low (Thank You Best Guess resource). Or are we looking at Polyquat (Are you sure 'Polyquat' is not really a swear word?) at this point?

Again thanks for the support.

[Winicott]

POP is dropping fast. I am treating this chemical issues with Mojitos.
.5oz lime juice
1tsp sugar
1.25 oz Rum
10 mint leaves
Muddle
Add crushed ice and 2 oz of soda water.

The nice thing is this works no matter the pool chemistry, unlike increasing and maintaining your pH. Also it is a partially green body of water that you can do something about fast, unlike your green pool which takes a few days... :)

[PoolDoc]

:D ;) :D

of course, while the use of Mojitos in pool treatment provides some *relief*, it doesn't really provide a *solution*. ;)

[PoolDoc]

Copper is 1

I am thinking that I should shock THEN raise CYA since the shock threshold is lower when the CYA is low Or are we looking at Polyquat (Are you sure 'Polyquat' is not really a swear word?

Do *NOT* shock (raise the chlorine level suddenly). You NEVER want to do that when you have metals in the water, unless you have a specific case, and are trying to drop all the metals to the bottom --you can do that with iron, but not copper.

Polyquat is a good backup. It not only will help filter the metals out, as they precipitate, but it will reduce the need to 'shock' to control algae.

[Winicott]

Got it. Slow and Steady on the Chlorine to avoid the copper coming out of solution and staining the pool.

I will have to order some Polyquat. Not only is may POP dropping, but the family members are getting restless as well. I may have to use the full chemical name to avoid the side long stares I may get from peers and relatives.

Wife almost took me off pool duty after seeing I was adding borax to the pool to increase pH. I then educated her on the problems of using soda ash and explained that borax is the same thing as pH UP but just not as strong and not as expensive. Hooray for science!

as far as the POP relief- I disagree with your assertion that Mojitos are not part of a solution. Once consumed they are *in* solution in your blood chemistry ;) Hey-oh!

Woot! I just made a chemistry joke!

Thanks again for the reply. I will check back once I have vacuumed 3-4 times.

I have to say I love this site. I really feel like I understand why I am doing what. Up until this week pool chemistry was a complete mystery. Thanks for maintaining all this info.

[PoolDoc]

Once consumed they are *in* solution in your blood chemistry

Woot! I just made a chemistry joke!

;) Well, you're one up on me: I don't know any chemistry jokes, and only one physics joke.*


* A really bad physics joke: What does a quantum duck say? "Quark, quark, quark." You can groan, now.

[Watermom]

Groan!

[Winicott]

Groan!

Yes it is groan-able, but honestly I don't care if he speaks Klingon, as long as BBB and this site helps me get the pool clear.

Lots of vacuuming and lots of testing and lots of filter cleaning. Getting there.

[Winicott]

pH has dropped to 7.2 from high of 7.5. Is this fluctuation normal? I thought that by adding chlorine pH would increase?

Do specific trees make the pool more acidic? In the garden I use Oak leaves to make the soil more acidic. Oak tree shadows the pool in the AM.
I am still cloudy, but water is blue.

POP is still low. I opened pool to family. Waiting on K2006 test kit to arrive. I want to test CYA so I know how high I can run FC. I am on the slow and steady program to prevent copper staining. How long does this slow and steady last? Copper be D&mned! We want clarity! :)

Called pool store to see if I could get a test to monitor FC at levels of 10-15 ppm so I could shock (POP is .03ppm) and maintain levels for 3-5 days to finally get to clear. Pool store person told me that
1) You will burn the liner!
2) You have phosphates!

Both of which I know to not be true based on the info I learned about here. Hooray Science & Thanks PF crew.

I imagine any issues I will have with the liner are due to not keeping the pH above 6.8 (which is where it was when I opened).

ALSO Wife said she was impressed that the water looks as nice as it does considering that in some years the water never looked as good as it does now.

[Winicott]

I got some polyquat at the local pool store. Put in 2 bottles. Water more cloudy now than before. What happened?

[PoolDoc]

2 possibilities:

1. The polyquat has clumped stuff together, so it's easier to filter -- but also easier to see.

Solution? Run the pump & filter 24/7.


2. You had some mystery pool-store goop in the water that you hadn't mentioned, but that was anionic in solution (negatively charged on the big portion of the ionic pair). Polyquat is cationic and isn't compatible with anionic products. Some 'flocculants' fall into this category.

Solution? Run the pump & filter 24/7 . . . but it will take longer.

[Winicott]

This morning there is sediment on the bottom and slightly less cloudy. This supports your polyquat clumping assertion. I will vac to waste and continue to run filter 24/7 today and keep on keeping on.

I am also cleaning the filter every 12 hours.


This season I accidentally let the RV antifreeze pump into the pool. Other posters indicate this is not a big problem (not that it is a help either). Other than that there is no pool store goop.

Thanks for the reassurance.

[Watermom]

Glad there is some improvement today.

By the way, I think you have overstated your volume in your signature. I also have a 27ft AG. The volume is more like 17-18K gallons. It would be a good idea to make that change. We need an accurate volume when giving chemistry advice especially.

[Winicott]

Glad there is some improvement today.

By the way, I think you have overstated your volume in your signature. I also have a 27ft AG. The volume is more like 17-18K gallons. It would be a good idea to make that change. We need an accurate volume when giving chemistry advice especially.


You are right! I left out some important info.

I slope into a flat deep end that is 5' 6" or so that I think accounts for the greater volume. My geometry is not that hot. So I did some searching.

I went here to get a better answer: http://www.online-calculators.co.uk/volumetric/cylindervolume.php

I figured the average radius of the deep end is 10' when you figure in the slope and the step off shelf with a depth of 1.5'. This came to about 471 cubic feet. The volume of that in gallons is about 3525.

27' pool at 4' (according to google & Watermom) is 17100. I am sure this varies depending on water level.

That puts me at about 20600 gal.

It is kind of a weird volume since I feel that I always need to go slightly over what they ask for when treating for 10k gal at a time. I suppose since it is so close I would be better off to just think of the thing as 20k gal.

By the way, I put in 1 1/4 bottle of Polyquat, not 2 bottles.

Thanks Watermom for prompting me to "get to the bottom" of this *Snicker* (I think I just made a math joke) :)

[Winicott]

Thanks so much for your help! The pool is finally looking mostly great. The pool is like 95% clear, which is a huge improvement. I can clearly see the bottom in the deep end even with swimmers in it. I am adding chlorine 2-3 times a day to keep up with the chlorine demand.

TA 100
FC 2.8 (this morning it was 4.4)
CC .6
CYA 0 I added more 2 days ago, but have not tested since. The chemical may be expired since this is the second time I have added it this year and it has dropped :(
pH 7.3
CAL 280

I am using the chlorine tablets left over from the Pool Frog. Those will be gone in a couple of weeks. I have the chlorinator set to "3".


How do I shock to eliminate the CC when I am trying to keep the copper dissolved in the water?

[PoolDoc]

1. If you use tabs & dichlor, your CYA will rise gradually. As it does, you'll be able to get away from the 2x per day thing.

2. CYA doesn't 'expire' -- if it's there, it's still good.

3. Don't worry about the CC levels. If your pool doesn't 'stink' and isn't irritating . . . it's not a problem.

[Winicott]

OK- I will search for link in here about what kind of dichlor to use. I was trying to avoid trips to pool store and just use BBB with some stabilizer. If dichlor is a way to add stabilizer and chlorinate then that sounds like a good solution.

I added stabilizer earlier this season, but the chemical in the bucket was old, like maybe 2-3 years. I added some and then the CYA did not go up so I am assuming the chemical in the bucket had expired. I think I will end up going to the pool store and have them test for CYA so I don't have to waste my own test materials. See about some dichlor tabs and or stabilizer, whatever is cheaper.

Thanks for the CC info. Worried that this is the start of cloudiness, but I assume if I stay on top of it everything will be OK.

[PoolDoc]

BBB *does* stand for bleach, borax, and baking soda, but what it *means* is to use the best things for your pool, from the most practical source. We do often recommend using actual bleach and borax, but we also recommend other things depending your your pool and situation.

Dichlor is the easiest way to start a small pool; dissolving stabilizer is a pain, if you don't have a skimmer and a large filter.

On an outdoor viny pool -- you will be usually be fine if you (a) maintain consistent chlorine levels appropriate for your level of stabilizer, keep your pH between 7 and 8, and filter adequately.

Things *can* get more complicated, if you have well water, have metals in your water, have fill water that's very high in alkalinity and calcium, and so on. But fortunately, most people don't have to struggle with those things.

[Winicott]

********Sorry if repost. Forum timed out when I posted reply. So I am reposting****** Sorry for inconvenience Mod*********

Old stabilizer was still good! Woot!

Pool store test indicates that the CYA levels were "between 30-50" on a test strip. I was also told "That is on the low side". Can't trick me Pool Store! I know this is a fine level based on the resources available here. In a neurotic fit I will probably still check it using my 2006-c, but I want to avoid it since there are only a few tests worth of CYA in the 2006-c. I suppose the small cost of replacing the CYA test reagents does not compare to the headache of working on a pool where you don't know the chemical levels.

I think in the future I will use stabilizer and bleach. My concern about he dichlor/trichlor tablets is that it is hard to tell what you are adding stabilizer wise. Then, before I know it, the CYA will be 120 and I will be adding larger and larger amounts of bleach every day to keep up with the best guess chart. My thoughts is that if I add it in one dose at the beginning of the year and then I can better predict the CYA levels and thus use a more predictable (and lower) dose of chlorine all summer. Pool will be clear and also be cheaper to run every summer.

The pool looks great and I feel like I am in control of the chemistry of the water. You rock PoolDoc!

[PoolDoc]

Actually, keeping track of what you add with dichlor and trichlor is pretty easy. Here's how:

1. Figure your PF, which is the ratio of a million pound pool (120,000 gallons) to your pool => 120/20.1 = ~6

2. So, if you add 1 lb of chlorine gas to your pool (100% chlorine) you add 1 x 6 ppm to your pool. If you use dichlor (56% chlorine) you will add 0.56 x 6 or ~3 ppm chlorine.

3. BUT, both trichlor (90% chlorine) and dichlor (56%) chlorine are about 50% stabilizer. I know those numbers don't add up; the answer lies in some old potable water treatment history that I'm not going to drag out, but it's not a typo

4. SO . . . if you add 1 lb of EITHER dichlor or trichor to your pool, you wll have added 0.5 x 6 or ~3 ppm CYA to the pool. Put it another way: if you buy this shock:
Kem-Tek dichlor 12 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon => ~$4.00/lb (Jul 2013)
and use it in your pool, you will have added 12 x 0.5 x 6 ppm CYA to your pool, or 36 ppm, MINUS whatever water you have lost to backwashing or splashout.

SO . . . all you have to do is put a chart with your chemicals, and keep a record of every time you buy more dichlor or trichlor. Take the pounds, and multiply pounds x 50% CYA x PF to find our how much you've added.

[Winicott]

My head just exploded from pool nerdiness, but in a good way I assure you.

So I can see how this is easier when I open. Test for opening CYA levels; determine what I want my final CYA to be; buy that much Dichlor using the formula above; chlorinate with that when I open until I have used up the determined poundage; then switch back to bleach to chlorinate for the remainder of the season.

[PoolDoc]

My head just exploded from pool nerdiness, but in a good way I assure you.

;) pool nerds r us . . . .