Hayward DE7220 integration with Hayward ECOSTAR SP3400VSP; minimum RPM requirements

[rogue]

I’d like to know what the minimum and optimum flow rates (GPM) or pressure requirements are for the Hayward DE 7220 operating in conjunction with a Hayward ECOSTAR SP3400VSP alone (i.e. without the solar array engaged). This information will allow me to correctly set speed 1 RPM on the ECOSTAR for non-solar condition in relay mode.

I currently have a 25K gal pool with Hayward Super II 1 hp pump (2 inch piping), Hayward DE 7220 filter, Polaris 280 sweep with booster pump, Goldline Aqua Rite chlorine generator, eleven (11) Heliocol solar pool panels on 2nd story roof, and Goldline/Hayward GL235 solar controller (5A049-026318) with automated gate valve. This equipment was installed new as a package in Jan 2005. My weekly maintenance consists of adding 2 qts of acid weekly along with 3 caps of Pool Perfect + Phos free, and cleaning the skimmer. As required I clean/inspect the Chlorine cell. Twice per year I disassemble and clean the DE filter. Pre-coat DE filter readings are 14 PSI without solar and 20 PSI with the solar array valve open.

I’ve worked with the Hayward Techs on the phone to determine that I will use the ECOSTAR in relay mode with Speed 1 set for non-solar use and Speed 2 for solar use. Speed 2 will be invoked when the Hayward GL-235 solar control opens the solar valve and closes the high voltage output relay. This relay will be wired to the 24 VAC and Input 1 contacts of the ECOSTAR. The RPM for speed 2 will be set to provide 55 GPM to the solar array per Heliocol specs.

But on the phone the Hayward Tech could not provide procedure/data points necessary to set speed 1 to a minimum RPM (i.e. without solar) which will allow optimum filtration by the DE7220.

Would appreciate any insight available!

[mas985]

I am a little confused. Are you now using the Super II and will soon be switching to the EcoStar?



Pre-coat DE filter readings are 14 PSI without solar and 20 PSI with the solar array valve open.Do you mean after cleaning the filter and before you add DE or after you add DE? I would like to know the clean filter pressure with the DE added. Also, is this pressure with the EcoStar or the Super II? If EcoStar, what is the RPM?


What is the model # for the Super II? Should be on a tag on the side of the pump. Not the motor #.


On the suction side of the pump, how many suction lines do you have coming from the pool all the way to the pump?


How high is the filter gauge relative to the water level?

[PoolDoc]

.
[ Hmm-mh. Mark and I cross posted. He's being more patient about this than I am. ]

You are seriously over-thinking this.

Your assumption that that there is a precise optimal point of operation for your pool and all the equipment is incorrect. Pursuing that mythical optimal point will consume a great deal of time and effort, with very little benefit.

The BBB approach to pool chemistry and operation is strictly a "good-enough" approach; I've long referred to the pursuit of optimal chemistry as "chasing the numbers". That could just as well refer to your request.

In theory, one could describe a rational basis for optimizing pool operation in the manner you are seeking; in practice, there are too many uncertainties to do so in a genuinely meaningful way.

Just to take one example: you want to know "optimum" flow rates for your DE filter. But, you don't say optimum to what end. Minimum energy use? Maximum filter cycle life? Minimum DE consumption? Maximum water clarity? Or something else?

=> Precisely determining the minimum energy use would require an engineering study of the non-linear relation between watts consumed and gallons moved for your pump; hydraulic analysis of your unique piping arrangement, including any on/off cycles of your solar system, and a field study of actual dirt loads on the water in your pool. Incidentally, most of the West Coast pool solar heating systems I've seen are energy pigs, due to the great increase in pump effluent pressure required to circulate water through a sub-optimally designed solar loop.

=> Maximum filter cycle runs would, among other things, require arranging your system so the pump was never shut off during a run: few DE filters can redistribute the DE "optimally" after the initial pre-coat!

And so on . . .

[mas985]

I’d like to know what the minimum and optimum flow rates (GPM) or pressure requirements are for the Hayward DE 7220 operating in conjunction with a Hayward ECOSTAR SP3400VSP alone (i.e. without the solar array engaged).
Ben triggered a re-read for me and the answer is somewhat simplistic. There is no minimum flow rate and given the size of the filter, you will never reach the maximum flow rate so the filter is not even an issue here.

If you want the most energy efficient (gallons/watt-hr) setting for the EcoStar, that would be around 1000 RPM. You would just need to set the run time long enough to clean your pool.

[rogue]

Hi,

Ben thanks for the perspective. As a mechanical engineer I understand your comments. That said my intent is to determine if there is a "go no lower than" flow level for the filter. My guess is the final RPM setting on the new ECOSTAR will be between that point and the 55 GPM RPM setting for the solar array. My goal is to minimize energy usage

Perhaps the minimum filter flow rate is simply achieved by observing that the filter tank is full and water is coming out of the air bleed port at the pressure gauge?

Mark, I am planning on replacing the current Super II one HP motor "SP 3010 EEA2" with the ECOSTAR SP 3400VSP. The data points you requested are:

1. I understand "pre-coat pressure" means the filter pressure just AFTER the new DE has been applied. In my case this is 14 PSI without the solar valve open and 20 psi with the solar valve open for my current system with the Super II pump
2. It looks like there is one main drain line coming into the skimmer from which the single 2 inch suction line goes to the pump. FYI it is 25 ft from the skimmer to the Super II pump inlet. My guess is that there is one 45 deg bend and two 90 deg bends up to the pump inlet
3. It is 56 inches from the filter pressure gauge to pool water level.

Looking forward to any advice you can provide on a reasonable flow/ speed 1 rpm setting for the new ecostar when the solar array is not engaged. Since energy conservation is the goal, perhaps there is a rule of thumb re length of pump operation at lower RPM vs shorter pump operation time at higher RPM?

[mas985]

Perhaps you missed my second post:


There is no minimum flow rate and given the size of the filter, you will never reach the maximum flow rate so the filter is not even an issue here.

If you want the most energy efficient (gallons/watt-hr) setting for the EcoStar, that would be around 1000 RPM. You would just need to set the run time long enough to clean your pool. Start with 6 hours and see how that works.

[rogue]

Looks like we had crossing posts. Appreciate the prompt responses!

The ECOSTAR 1000 RPM data point you provided is what I needed along with perspective re the filter.

My impression is that I will need to install a flow meter to get the GPM for the 1000 rpm in order to determine run time. Looks like the Blue White F30200 PR will work. I don't have much straight pipe after the filter but do have a 30 inch clear pipe run between the pump outlet and the filter.

Will the flow rate seen on the gauge mounted before the filter be much different than the reading if it is mounted after the filter?

Regards,

Chris

[mas985]

My impression is that I will need to install a flow meter to get the GPM for the 1000 rpm in order to determine run timeFlow rate has little to do with pump run time. I know that you read on the internet that a pool needs so many turnovers per day but it is somewhat of a myth. There are pools that need a couple of turnovers a day while there are others, like mine, that can get away with less than a 1/2 turnover per day. So knowing the flow rate is not really that important.

There are two main factors for run time:

Chlorine - This most important. If you have an SWG, you need to run long enough to get enough chlorine in the pool. If you manually dose, then you need to run long enough to circulate the chlorine after adding. 30 minutes is usually enough. But either way, you need to keep the FC levels per Ben's best guess chart.

Cosmetics - This is mainly personal preference. So if you don't care that your pool has a little dirt on the bottom or floating on the top, then you can get away with less run time. However, if you are pretty anal about having a pristine pool, you will need a lot of run time. But this is purely subjective and totally up to you. There is no right answer. Splitting up the run time can also help keep things cleaner without increasing the run time.

So run time should be based only on these two factors. Most pools with single speed pumps don't need more than 4 hours of run time. However, you may need a little more when running on lower speeds which is why I suggested 6 hours. But if you are already running more than 4 hours for solar, then I doubt you need any additional run time.

[rogue]

Using Natural Chemistry's Pool Perfect plus PhosFree, emptying the skimmer once per week, and breaking down/cleaning the DE filter twice per year I've kept phosphates near zero with no algea issues in the past 8 years. In the San Diego swimming season Apr -Oct I remove leaves and debris while swimming and use the Polaris 280 once per month or so for dirt. The chlorine generator easily maintain proper levels at 40% for 7 hours run time currently. Given your comments 6 hrs/day from 11-5 should work and will primarily be at solar heat speed resulting in an 80% pool water turnover during the swimming season. I can monitor the chlorine generation percent and adjust if the shorter run time impacts required chlorine levels.

During the winter season Nov-Mar solar would not be engaged. Based on your comments the 1000 rpm rule should work for the 6 hrs. Even so I will likely have to decrease the chlorine generation level.

During Dec through Feb pool temp drops below 55...do I even need to run the ECOSTAR and filter at these cold temps? I note that the Chlorine Generator drops off the line when it gets this cold!

[BigDave]

Please note, the EcoStar's built-in timers are inoperative when the pump is in relay mode.
A flowmeter before the filter will be exposed to the dirt the filter removes likely interfering with the operation of the meter.

[PoolDoc]

Just for the record -- as far as I can tell, Mark (mas985) has done more research, and is more knowledgeable on pool pump performance, than anyone else who is speaking publicly in the English speaking segments of the Internet. This probably means, he knows more about the operational and practical aspects residential pool pump performance than anyone else in the world.

I don't doubt that some mechanical engineers employed by Hayward or Pentair may know more about design and assembly than he does -- I've been greatly helped by some of those guys in years past -- but in my experience they have a somewhat limited perspective, and certainly cannot speak candidly about performance across brands.

[mas985]

During Dec through Feb pool temp drops below 55...do I even need to run the ECOSTAR and filter at these cold temps? I note that the Chlorine Generator drops off the line when it gets this cold!
I have about the same situation. When the water temp gets below 50F, my SWG stops running so I will usually just shut off the pump. I once went 2 months without running the pump and near the end as the water started to warm, the water had a ting of green color. So you can go without running a pump but you need to keep an eye on the water and if starts to turn green or cloudy, you may need to add some chlorine manually.

[rogue]

Mark: Thanks for the perspective on cold water ops

Dave: I understand re ECOSTAR timers not working in relay mode. I plan on using the existing intermatic timer to turn the ECOSTAR pump on/off with speed 1 set at 1000 rpm per Mark. This morning I confirmed the HV output terminals of the GL-235 solar controller (ie last two to the right of the power connection block) are simply controlled by an open/close switch that closes when solar is engaged. I will connect these terminals to the ECOSTAR pump 24V AC terminals and input 1 with associated speed 2 set at an RPM to drive 55 GPM for solar.

Good point on the flow meter before the filter. It is a pitot static setup so the dirt would be an issue. Guess I'll need to get non-solar flow from determining total dynamic head at the pump (ie see INYO POOLS http://www.inyopools.com/HowToPage/how_to_measure_total_dynamic_head_with_gauges.aspx ) then go into the ECOSTAR performance graph with 1000 rpm and determine Hayward's predicted GPM flow rate.

While going through the install process I'll take a few pictures of the setup and post in case others pass this way.

Thanks for all the advice! I'll print and put in my pool maintenance log.

[mas985]

I can also calculate head loss with just filter pressure and a description of the suction side plumbing. Those were the questions I had asked in the second post. You can also do this yourself with one of my spreadsheets:

Pool Spreadsheets Link (https://sites.google.com/site/maspooltools/spreadsheets)

The EcoStar spreadsheet can calculate flow rate from just RPM and wattage. The Pool Pump Tools spreadsheet is more generic and a bit more accurate and can calculate flow rate for many different pumps in several different ways.

But again, knowing the exact flow rate of the pump really doesn't help you any. It just doesn't matter.

For reference, your current flow rate is around 82 GPM and on solar it is about 69 GPM. To match the same solar rate, the EcoStar would need to be set at about 3000 RPM.

[rogue]

Hi,

In an earlier post I asked for help in configuring my new Hayward ECOSTAR SP3400 VSP variable speed pump with a GoldLine GL-235 Solar Controller. The previous pool filter pump was an 8 year old 1.0 HP Hayward Super II pump (model SP3010EEAZ) connected at 220 V with the GL-235 solar controller, GoldLine AquaRite chlorine generator, and an auto-fill system on the same timer to support my 25,000 gal salt water pool. The Hayward DE7220 DE filter pre-coat pressure with the Super II pump and without solar was 14 PSI and with solar 20 PSI. The solar is on a 2nd story roof. Water travels approx. 46 feet in 2 inch pipe over a 26 ft high ridge to the far side of the roof where the first of eleven (11) Heliocol HC-50 panels are located.

When reading this post it will be helpful to have the ECPOSTAR SP3400VSP Owner’s Manual handy for reference. For installation I also found the Hayward ECOSTAR Variable Speed Pump and Drive Technical Guide to be very helpful…nice pictures. Both can be found online.

As seen in the attached picture (unable to attach or upload at this time) the connection is straight forward. After turning power and circuit breakers off:

1. Disconnect the power and ground wires from the Super II pump and connect them to the ECOSTAR as shown.
2. On the ECOSTAR used 12 gauge wire to connect the Input terminal #2 to the closest 12 VAC terminal (note from owner’s manual pg 14 section 4.4 “connection wire must be rated for a minimum of 300 V.” see following picture.
3. Connect the far right GL-235 switch terminal #6 to ECOSTAR Input terminal #1
4. Connect the GL-235 switch terminal #5 to the remaining open ECOSTAR 12 VAC terminal
5. Observe the GL-235 note not to run the sensor wires in the same conduit with power carrying wires.

Though the ECOSTAR and Super II pump dimensions were similar, I had to re-plumb to get the 10 inch minimum suction pipe length called for on page 8 Section 3.3 of the ECOSTAR Owner’s manual as well as to accommodate the ECOSTAR Union joints.

Programming setup was fairly straight forward. I was initially concerned the pump didn’t turn on right away, but there is a delay as it goes through an internal diagnostic first. Two points here before I discuss the setup described in the owner’s manual. See page 10 Section 3.10 Remote Control Wiring/Operation.
• When there is no input from the GL-235 with solar off the Timer speed one is active. When the GL-235 senses temperatures appropriate to engage the solar system and powers up the 3 Way valve signal, a signal is also sent to close the GL-235 switch connected to the ECOSTAR. When the switch closes the 12 V signal is recognized by the ECOSTAR and Timer Speed 2 is initiated
• In Relay Mode, which you will select during configuration, “Preset speeds 1-4 and Quick Clean are disabled when the pump is remotely controlled” such as by the GL-235. (Note: Not sure why the Quick Clean is disabled…would have been nice to have this available for vacuuming the pool without having to reprogram timer speeds.) However, the Stop/Resume button is functional in Relay Mode.

OK, Section 5.5 has some initial startup data entry items before section 5.6 the full configuration menu. To access the configuration menu the comment states that you “press and hold < and > for several seconds to unlock Configuration Menu. Steps 1 through 9 apply to all pump modes, but in step 10 you will select Relay Mode to integrate the ECOSTAR and the GL-235. Steps 11 through 16 will likely not apply to you and 18 is informational. I also selected Auto Sense prime in step #9. Once you are done you will press + to accept changes.
To get to the section 5.7 timer mode press the menu button after seeing the configuration menu title. You will not have to unlock the Timer Mode function. Once you enter the timer mode program Timer 1 for non-solar, low speed setting and timer 2 for higher speed solar setting. I set the times at 23 hours since the time is controlled by the Intermatic on/off timers

Pre-set speed startup menu will not apply to you in Relay mode.

Once you have completed this program turn the pump on by activating the remote Intermatic timer thus supplying power to all pool components. Assuming GL-235 solar is off, set the GL-235 manual switch to Test. When the solar valve opens the 12 VAC signal is sent to the ECOSTAR Input #1 and the Timer 2 is activated with its higher RPM.
To help determine proper flow rates I installed pitot static flow meters on the vertical solar feed pipe and on a GLX-Cell-Pipe blank to replace the Aqua Rite Solar salt cell. I verified the flow rates by installing pressure and vacuum gauges at the pump ports and using the “how to determine total head” video at InyoPools.com

For the non-solar condition I learned from the Hayward tech reps that as long as the pump kept the filter tank full as noted by solid stream of water exiting the vent port at the top of the tank then the minimum flow rate could be determined. I settled on 1400 RPM/187 watts /37 GPM/ filter pressure 4 psi for Timer #1. There are no air bubbles shown in the ECOSTAR pump basket area at high speeds, but at low speeds (ie 1499 RPM) air bubbles do gather.
I was also concerned regarding chlorine generation at low flow rates. The Hayward technical folks stated that chlorine generation by the Aquarite system is independent of flow rate.

For the solar condition, Heliocol stated the recommended flow rate per HC-50 (i.e. 50 sq ft) panel is 5 GPM. Because I have a split series configuration with a 6 panels section first followed by a 5 panel section the Heliociol rep said that my recommended flow rate would be 30 GPM with a maximum of 10 GPM per panel or 60 GPM. Several data points are:

30 GPM at 1850 RPM/342 watts/filter 10 psi. 25,000 gal pool turnover is approx. 14 hrs
40 GPM at 2250 RPM/580 watts/ filter 14 psi. Pool turnover approx. 10.5 hrs
50 GPM at 2850 RPM/1138 watts/filter 20 psi. Pool turnover approx. 8.5 hrs
60 GPM at 3200 RPM/1600 watts/filter 24 psi.at Pool turnover approx. 7 hrs
I settled on 40 GPM for my Timer #2 solar speed

One final data point I wanted was to determine how heat exchange performance in the HC-50 panels varied with flow rate relative to the recommended 5 GPM flow rate per panel. No response yet from the Heliocol folks.

Hope this helps those who want to integrate an ECOSTAR pump with a solar controller.

Good luck!

Rogue

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