View Full Version : Pool problems on startup
[ Separated from Michael3's thread here: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?20216 ]
Michael::: I am going through the EXACT same issue as yourself !!! Cloud is on Week #4 .... After 30+ gallons of 8.25%, I found my green/brownr is a metals issue as all my numbers are in line ( past few years with well water has me dealing with a whole 'nother issue).... just 20 minutes ago, I tossed in a triple amount of Flocculant ( havent done this since I found this forum 7 years ago).... But the patience is dwindling..... In an hour, i;ll shut everything down and hope this cloud falls to the bottom....either way, I'll keep you posted...
i too was astounded when i added stabilizer and (when my K2006 arrived) found that the CYA never "left" the pool from the year prior....CYA via K-2006 is 65....
Gotta love Pool Water !!! : >
Glad to report Michael that the triple dose of Floc yesterday yielded absolutely ZERO results !! $$16 Bucks and The Green Fog continues... PLEASE post if you ever get things back in line and loose the cloud.. Love to know how you did it... BEN/WaterMom/Marie:::: any hint as to this never ending fog ??: Went the shocking route for a month already.... Few weeks back, Placed a container of Natures Chemistry Metal Free and the pool turned blue with 24 hrs...Starting shocking again assuming this would take care of the cloud...to no avail.. this also includes new sand and a skimmer sock to boot
FC: 16.5
CC: 0
PH: 7.2
ALK: 90
CH: 30 (Vinyl liner)
CYA: 65 ( I know) ! : >
6800 gallon AG Vinyl
michael3
06-09-2013, 01:39 PM
Wow, was hopeful for ya. I'm even considered maybe partial drain and refill
Ben and Mom: Thanks as always ! Yes, this has been nothing short of a night mare this season.... Almost appears as a TDS issue that demands replacement of the water altogether.... Obviously not wanting to dump 6600 gallons down my driveway, and an alternative to your "Alternative Approach," Could i attempt the cup of DE through the skimmer? Or is that just a pipe dream at this point...?
Watermom
06-10-2013, 08:01 AM
Could i attempt the cup of DE through the skimmer? Or is that just a pipe dream at this point...?
I'm not sure it will solve the problem, but what have you got to lose if you try it?
Adding DE to a Sand Filter (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3742)
PoolDoc
06-10-2013, 10:35 AM
It's hard to track two pools in one thread, so I moved these posts out of this thread:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?20216
and put them here.
Im actually going to try the cup of DE in the filter... based on the micron sizes it catches, I'll hope that may do the trick....again...all wish-full thinking... think about the partial VS a FULL drain though.... half the water that remains may contaminate the new that is placed back in... a 60 gallon kiddie pool is looking REAL good right about now..>!!!
Good Luck Mike..... I'll keep ya posted
michael3
06-11-2013, 08:03 PM
Hey stma, I just got my shut off valve installed between my pump and filter, dropped my psi from 17 to 10 and water flow slowed alot, gonna run it till I see improvements lol, will let ya know
@Ben/ WaterMom>>>> Foolish question of the Year::: Could I use "Food Grade" DE for my 1/2 Cup needs ?? ( I can purchase way less quantity at a cheaper cost than the Pool-store DE )..
PoolDoc
06-12-2013, 08:08 AM
You can try. If it doesn't shoot back into the pool, you can use it.
Hey Ben:: I did receive the DE (for pools) today... I applied as per Carl's directions. In the event this does work, Should I see a difference in the cloudiness pretty quick ?
michael3
06-13-2013, 03:13 PM
Stma, I just got home with new sand and a 24 lb box of DE lol, pretty excited to get everything back together, of course there calling for severe storms here this afternoon. Maybe both our pools will clear at same time lol
PoolDoc
06-13-2013, 03:48 PM
Hey Ben:: I did receive the DE (for pools) today... I applied as per Carl's directions. In the event this does work, Should I see a difference in the cloudiness pretty quick ?
No. Here's why:
A sand filter filters in depth, capturing debris in the first 4 - 12" of the sand. If you think of each 1/2 layer of sand, then a 3 square foot filter (24" diameter) filtering with the top 6" of sand would have a total filter area of 3 sft x 6" x 2 layers/inch = 36 sq. ft of filter surface.
By contrast, a DE filter works by filtering on the surface only.
This is why a sand filter has an effective flow rate for good filtration of 15 gpm/sft, but a DE filter has a flow rate of 2 gpm/sft. Thus a 3 sft sand filter can handle a flow of 45 GPM, but a 3 sft DE filter can handle a flow of only 6 gpm!
What happens when you add DE to say, an 18" sand filter, is that you convert a filter that can handle 25 gpm, to a filter that *should* handle only 3.5 gpm. It *will* handle more, but at the price of stopping up very, very quickly.
I suppose in theory, if you fully coated a sand filter, and then backwashed it several times per day, you could clean up a mess like your quite quickly. But most people don't do that.
ALSO . . . some of the particles in badly clouded pools seem to be too fine for even a DE filter to handle quickly -- it make take multiple passes through the filter to get everything.
I have the next few days off and have ZERO problem fully coating and backwashing.... Could you define "Coating" ?? I have 12 pounds of this stuff and the quicker I see bottom, the happier my life will be !!!
PoolDoc
06-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Probably 3 oz by weight per square foot of sand surface. (1.8 sft for 18" filter; 3 sft for 24" filter)
Just thinking out loud here, I would need to "coat" after every back wash ??
@Ben, VERY much appreciate you sticking in here with me on this !! Quick question :: After 20 minutes of adding the DE, my pressure went up 2 pounds..... 40 minutes later (an hour after application) the PSI jumped 3 more pounds... Is more pounds a good thing and let it ride, or do I need to backwash and start again adding less DE ??
PoolDoc
06-13-2013, 09:43 PM
I'd backwash at a 7 - 10 psi increase.
You need to coat after every backwash, because the DE is flushed OUT of the filter during backwash.
michael3
06-15-2013, 09:53 AM
Hows your progress going stma? seems like it takes about 2/3 of a cup of DE to get 1-2 psi rise on my system. let it run all night and it has only risen about 5 psi. not sure if thats a good rise or if it should have climbed quicker lol, anyways I`m going to do like Ben suggested and wait till I get 7-10 increase then backwash and add more
Ben had posted above about coating the filter::: Using 3oz per sq ft of sand surface... with my small 166 filter, Im putting in 4.5 ounces..WAY MORE than the 1/2 cup from the DE "thread." I backwash once the return loses most or all of its pressure... for me, that is a 6 pound rise... Just checked this morning, and this method is definitely working.... May be a slower than normal process, but like yourself, I am optimistic about this !!
I'll spend the day today hanging at the pool, and doing the backwash-- dosing "thing"... Hopefully tomorrow I'll see a little more than just my reflection when looking into the water !! : > LOL
michael3
06-16-2013, 12:24 AM
If I want 3 oz of weighted DE and I have 3 sf or 24" filter that = 9 weighted oz of DE to coat? I don't have a scale lol any idea how 9 oz dry measures out in a regular liquid measuring cup
OK... 1 LEVELED Cup is 2 1/4 ounces..... so 4 Cups would be 9 oz.... I used half that amount for my smaller filter...I slurried with approx 1 gallon of water and slowly poured in..... Again, i based my decision to backwash, by the outflow at the return..... i am backwashing every few hours...probably dont need to do it that often, but I do like the results im getting....
michael3
06-16-2013, 11:05 AM
Wow, I've been putting 2/3- to 1 cup, no wonder it takes 6-8 hrs to get the 8-10psi rise. I wonder if that little is still filtering but just slower? Does more filter faster or just raise psi quicker
That could be a question for Ben to answer.... im looking at it this way....:: it's either 1/2 Cup and filter for 6-8 hrs to get the rise---OR--- 2 Cups and filter 2 hours to get the rise... I chose the latter since I was hanging at the pool the whole day anyway..... if you have the time on your hands today, (You should since it's Fathers Day :), attempt the 4 cup dose atleast a few times today and see if you see a marked difference ( I know I did)...... just an fyi: it does take a bit longer to backwash.... i was/ and have been adding water throughout the process... But I think the water will be a freebie today based on the forecast...
michael3
06-16-2013, 05:54 PM
Found that about 2 cups seems to be a good number for me. The pressure rises about 2 psi and it takes about 3-4 hours to reach high enough to backwash. Stma do you still have a green tint or just cloudy? I still cant shake the green :(
Mike, I kinda lost my green tint a little, but I'll tackle that when this thing de-fogs ( if it ever does).. Back in your first or second post, you mentioned something about adding shock that contained a percentage of copper.... I too, in the past would have this nagging green that would never disappear....Very Very slight hint, but it was green nonetheless.. I found it to be metals in the water (I have well water here)... now I know how to deal with that....
all that said::::
real simple: take 2 or 3 vitamin C tablets from the medicine drawer.... place the pill inside an 8- folded paper towel, the bottom of an old sock, an old rag etc... take a hammer and crush the pills up abit...now take that towel, rag or sock, and rub the side wall of the pool with it and see if you see a stain coming off.... If you do have metals in the water, it will be quite noticeable once you rub the pool wall as the stain will disappear before your eyes ... its actually pretty cool to see... If the metals are present in the water, dont sweat that until you get the cloud "thing" under control... Remember the color wheel : >>>> Blue wall+yellow stain=green appearance
michael3
06-16-2013, 09:09 PM
Cool, now to get some vitamin c, would not surprise me at all if that's what I have. My liner is almost 10 yrs old and not in the best of shape. If I can get the clouds gone from my water, I may be able to live with green looking walls and bottom lol
it wont take alot of "C" to find out... just ball it into a paper towel, and rub that "ball" on the liner... You'll know in an instant if its metals....
michael3
06-17-2013, 08:24 PM
Well I`m happy to report ....... I am still clueless lol. Got some vitamin c, rubbed the pill up against the liner and nothing. I guess you can do that right? So, it doesnt appear to be metal, or will the vitamin c work on copper stain? Still dont think its algae at this point, Chlorine has been high enough, long enough to kill anything in that water lol.
PoolDoc
06-18-2013, 08:35 AM
Vitamin C works on copper.
Unfortunately, some organic stains can be removed only very slowly with chlorine . . . and I have seen some that were never removed. I don't know of any other way to remove them.
michael3
06-18-2013, 08:42 AM
With the age of my liner, if we can get the water clear, can probably see about 2' down now. I am ok with green colored wall and bottom lol. With my chlorine holding overnight, and getting no cc on that test, do you think I can go ahead and bring my chlorine level down to the cya guess chart? And with the pool being cloudy, do you think it would be safe to swim in, we're nearing the end of June and have not been in it once :( I have a 5 yr old that just doesn't understand why she can't swim
PoolDoc
06-18-2013, 11:06 AM
Bringing your chlorine level down would probably be fine . . . but you can almost certainly swim now!
Skin is VERY chlorine resistant. Swimsuits, not so much. So, if the chlorine is high wear old swimsuits, or depending on who's home and how your fences are, just skip them altogether - unless you are worried about the NSA seeing something. ;)
Odd fact: when new users register and include their address, I check it on Google Maps. It's a quick and easy way to see exclude hackers, spammers and so on. So . . . having seen literally 100's, maybe 1,000's of pools on Google satellite view, I have *never* seen a pool with someone in it. (And yes, you can tell. I can usually tell the shape of a pool, whether it's in-ground or above-ground, and whether it has a d-board or a slide..) Makes me wonder if Google has some software routine that auto-magically removes people from home pools and pool decks -- I know from having done pool service, that if you show up at home pools unexpectedly, and don't announce yourself loudly, you can sometimes see more than is good for customer relations. ;) Google may have decided it was smart, on their part, to never display people that might be in pools, and might, or might not have suits on.
michael3
06-18-2013, 09:08 PM
stma, any progress today? we had several more downpours today, allowed me to vacuum to waste. I am seeing more and more of my liner looking straight down from the side, it doesnt look stained. I have a theory, and maybe Ben or someone will see this and chime in, I have alot of tall trees not far from my pool, when I look straight down into my water it looks more cloudy than green. With my pool being cloudy and not being able to see the blue liner, could I be dealing with the green trees reflecting on the cloudy water, thus making the water look green? I get a bucket full of water and its cloudy but no green, may be a stretch but....? lol
@ Ben:: let me toss this one by you quick>>> You obviously know what Im going through with the cloudiness, DE additions etc... All is going well and I'm now attempting the removal of ther metal stains on the walls and floor.... things are going slow there as well, but I order Vit C powder to rub the walls with when it arrives later this week... ANYWAY, I just poured a dose (( 10oz) of PolyQuat in the pool....from the time it took me to re-cap the bottle and put it back in the garage, the entire pool has clouded over again (You cant see 6 inches down).... Is this normal operation for a Poly dosage ????
FC is 1.0
CC: 0
Alk: 90
PH: 7.2
PoolDoc
06-19-2013, 06:17 PM
I don't recall having ever heard of that before.
Please check your bottle label and tell me EXACTLY what it say: brand, label name, chemical ingredient name.
By the way -- it's possible that the polyquat is acting as a flocculant or coagulent for something in the water, so . . . keep running the filter.
OK:
E-Z Clor Algaecide Plus
Poly(oxyethelene (dimethylimino) ethylene (dimethylimino) ethylene (dichloride) 60%
Inert 40%
manufactured by Alliance Trading.
Its the same Poly I use every year///
PoolDoc
06-19-2013, 10:51 PM
OK. That's polyquat all right.
Checked with Chem_Geek and he noted that some mystery chemicals, including some flocculants and coagulants may contain polyacrylic acid, which is incompatible with polyquat. The good news is, he thinks the gook that forms should have big enough particles to filter out relatively quickly.
....And i did Floc the water a few weeks ago.... Actually i have been seeing the precip of the floc dose sitting at the bottom of the pool......atleast thats what I hope I'm seeing :)
Ben, Thanks as always
michael3
06-23-2013, 01:08 PM
Hows the ascorbic acid treatment going? Just my luck, after I got my water crystal clear seems like more and more stains are appearing on the bottom. Some may be organic but I crushed some vitamin c in a sock and rubbed and they started coming right off :( so I guess that means they are metal stains. So how hard is this treatment and how expensive is it? Our water looks great and my liner is 10 yrs old, the stains look like crap but just not sure I want to put alot more money into making it look good. I wonder if I bought enough bottles of vitamin c and crushed them and rubbed the stain off, how long before it comes back lol
I got 2.2 lbs off ebay for $18.00 free shipping... It made a night to day difference Mike...that coupled with the DE still in the filter, this water has NEVER looked better.... just follow the ascorbic acid treatment as posted in Metals and Stains Forum...CL needs to be ZERO/ PH at 7.0/ and PolyQuat is a must...
The Vit C would essentially work, but the strenghth is probably super low compared to the powdered Vit C...
Item number on Ebay was 261144196937 .... got it in 2 days after ordering...
Watermom
06-23-2013, 03:37 PM
stma ---- check your email. (the one you used to register on the forum)
Michael: Been a few weeks.... How did everything finally work out ?
michael3
07-04-2013, 10:45 AM
Things are going good. I havent done the acid treatment, just havent had the money or time. Our pool water is great, just the liner stains. Our little girl doesnt care, she just happy to be swimming. We our in the middle of a freak July weather event at least thats what the experts sre saying, the 4th is a total washout. From the 3rd to the 5th we are supposed to get up to 8" of rain. So I'm in the process of dumping water to waste and trying to keep my chlorine up. Hows your adventure going?
OH MAN, I feel your pain !! Rain here in PA has been horrible... Sun is finally breaking out a little today... otherwise, its been rain and humid for a week.. All things ok pool-wise... the slightest of stain came back so i dosed with the ascorbic again.... probably didnt need to do the treatment again, but a day without pool maintenance is like a day without sunshine !
Glad to hear your little one is having some fun though...At the end of the day, thats all that counts !
Good luck with the weather !! (( and Happy 4th ))))