First test readings of season

[michael3]

To start off with, I messed up big time. I didnt cover my pool in the fall and we started with a frog pond, yes we had frogs. I didnt have the reagents to test my water and I never got by a pool store for them to test it. I started dumping bleach and plenty of it, got the water to a grey color for a short time, then it went green again. I thought surely I cant have any cya in the water so I dumped a 3 lb container in yesterday. I got some reagents today, my numbers were FC 20.5 CC 1.5 TC 22. PH 6.8 ALK 120 and the shocker, tested 2 times CYA 55-60. I stopped the pump and backwashed for 3+ minutes, I figure the CYA may still go up some? I havent added any bleach today so Im scared to think how high I got it yesterday. THe pump has been running 3 days straight 24/7 Im brushing and vaccuming 2 times a day. Water is still light green/ and very cloudy. Sorry for the long post, but just hoping to slowly see some improvement. We have a 24' above ground pool with 1.5 hp pump and 200 lb sand filter

[sunlove]

It can take a couple of weeks to turn swamp into swimmable. It's so much easier to keep it clean than to clean up a swamp-- been there done that ;) Why did you add 3lb of CYA? And yes CYA does take a few days to fully dissolve, ideally you should add a small amount, and wait a few days before testing... much better to undershoot it.. Good luck and be patient it will get better if you keep at it.

[michael3]

I did the wrong thing and assumed since all the bleach I was adding wasn't helping, I figured there was little or no stabalizer. I jumped the gun without having tested the water.

[michael3]

ok, this morning I go out and test the water, its still the same light green color. I got a FC of 23 CC of barely 1. I didnt add any bleach yesterday after getting a FC of 20.5 and CC of 1.5 I do have one of them floating chlorine tablet containers in the water that has 2 3" trichlor pucks in it. With my stabalizer reading between 55-60 should I take this out? I guess the good news is the pool isnt rapidly consuming my chlorine and the CC came down.

[Charlie_R]

Yes, it would be better if you removed the puck.

Sine your pool is still a light green, keep your FC at the best guess (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html) level until you lose no FC overnight and CC ~<.5 and water is clear.

Not too shabby a recovery!

[BigDave]

I'd let the pucks dissolve then switch to unsabilized chlorine, Bleach or Cal-Hypo. CYA of 60 should be plenty.
Did you get a pH today? High FC can artificially raise pH reading but I'm concerned that the last report pH was 6.8.
You are on the right track to clean the pool.
Keep the FC above 20
Run the filter 24/7, backwashing as necessary (when pressure goes up 6-10 psi)
Test and adjust FC at least twice a day
Brush the walls and floor daily
Continue this regimen until one day after all these conditions are met:
The pool is clear.
It loses less than 1 ppm FC from sunset to sunrise.
There is 0 or nearly 0 CC (less than one drop)

The BBB method of clearing a swamp: Bleach Bleach Bleach, Brush Brush Brush:D

Sorry, Charlie_R and I were posting at the same time - similar advice though.

[michael3]

Thanks BigDave, yes ph is still showing 6.8, and I read a post earlier where Ben had said when you use alot of trichlor that the ph could actually be much lower than the 6.8 the test is showing, basically the test is showing atleast 6.8 I had put probably about 12 of the 1 lb shock granual bags in the pool over the past 3 weeks. I found some liquid chlorine at Home Depot says it is 10% bleach its called liqui-shock. SO should I continue adding borax till I get that ph test up or will it test correctly with FC so high? Whats so bad is that I knew better than to add all that granual shock, but I assumed my cya was much lower. How long should I wait before I test the cya again to see if it has climbed any from the pucks, and I did remove them.

[BigDave]

What's in the granular shock?
Borax is a good way to raise pH and I would most certainly raise the pH of this pool. Do you have a K-2006? You can get a good idea how much Borax you'll need using the Base demand test. It'll take more Borax than Soda Ash. Start with half the calculated amount, let it dissolve / mix for a few hours then test again. You do, however want to get the pH into the readable range of the test as soon as you can.

[michael3]

The granular shock was the aqua chem shock xtra blue, says 63% dichlor, .26% copper, 36% other. the test kit I have is an old PS233 from Ben years ago, I have new reagents and it has always worked well for me

[BigDave]

I would avoid using any more of that shock. Copper is not a good thing to have in a pool. Dichlor is fine when the pool needs more CYA and lower pH - this is not really the case here.
I don't think the PS-233 had Acid / Base demand test (pretty sure Ben felt these tests encourage "one huge dose" adjustments). So... Add some Borax, let it dissolve / mix, test again.

[michael3]

Got some more borax in the water, going to test later this evening, Just a couple questions, at lunch time I tested chlorine level and it is holding and my CC was 0 down from 1.5 yesterday, but still no change in the water color. if the water is holding chlorine and CC is 0 shouldnt it begin to improve? I realize it will take some time I just want to see some change. At what point would I consider maybe doing a large water dump and refill

[michael3]

Just came in from brushing the walls and floor, tested also. FC was at 22.5, going off the cya test yesterday of 55-60 shouldnt 22.5 be ok as a shock number? CC at 1.0 PH up to 7.2 and tested calcium and it was 30? water remains the same, you can see probably about 8 inches down. it might be a tad lighter green but looks very cloudy as well. Ive noticed no huge difference on my filter pressure either, staying about the same as it always does, I know the gauge works, it drops to 0 when off and I get different pressures at backwash and rinse

[CarlD]

You are just going to have to maintain FC in the 20's, run your filter 24/7, vacuum to waste everyday, and backwash, then see if your pressure drops.

[BigDave]

Don't worry about the Calcium - for now or probably ever. Now that the pH is above the bottom of the scale (in safe range) just worry about killing all the algae - it'll be dead when the pool turns from green to cloudy gray / blue.

[michael3]

Just came in from brushing walls and floor, FC was at 22.5 CC 1. PH still 7.2 Lastnight I dumped maybe a quarter gallon of the 10% bleach in, I didnt test it because right now I only have the .75 size bottle of reagent, so not sure how much that would bump my FC upto, maybe 1-2? so there was some drop off but not alot. I think I am starting to get alittle of the grey in the green tint :)

[michael3]

just brushed the walls and floor again, I vacuumed earlier and all I got in the skimmer basket was a few pine needles and a couple dead looking snails lol. water had dipped down to a FC of 19. I added 1/2 gallon of 10% bleach. CC was.5 ph still good at 7.2 It appears the depth I can see down is slowly increasing, but were hanging on to the very light green/ cloudy water. Has anyone ever kept there filter on recirculate while they keep there FC so high? or would that work to kill the algae and it then settle on bottom? or is the filtering of the bleach minimal when pump is on filter?

[michael3]

water is maintaining the light green/cloudy look, been trying to keep my FC in the low to mid 20s, lowest test I got it dropped to 19, but mostly around 20 to 22. CC fluctuates from .5 to 1.0 PH staying steady at 7.2, When I did my CYA test sunday it looked to me to be between 55-60. FC been in 20s since friday. Theres just been very little to no improvement, I know I need patience cause the water was very nasty, but with my CYA test being borderline 55-60 is there a chance the low 20s for FC just isnt quite enough? this afternoon I bumped it up to 30, think it will be ok to keep it there? and also theres just been no change in pressure on my gauge, water flow is very strong

[Watermom]

To answer another question you asked the other day, yes, you can put your filter on recirculate while you chlorine is high. One thing I am wondering about in your pool is your pump size. A 1.5hp pump with a 200 lb. sand filter for a 24ft AG is way too big and a mismatch between pump and filter size. In the case of pool pumps, bigger is not better. A too powerful pump can push debris and algae right through the filter media and right back into the pool without filtering it out. I'm wondering if that is happening in your pool. Go ahead and put it on recirculate and see if you can kill the algae before trying to filter it out. Continue to keep the chlorine high. See if that helps any.

[michael3]

Thanks, watermom will try that, we ended up with that size pump and filter because our setup started out as a rec warehouse pool and the big blue sand fliter cracked, and our pump died, we the pump on ebay for a great price and found the sand filter on craigslist for an even better price. This is our 3rd season running this setup and although this is the first starting with this nasty of water, we have never had an issue. What would be better a smaller pump or filter? maybe 1 hp tops?

[Watermom]

I used to have a 24ft AG. I had a full-rated 1/2hp inground pump and it was plenty big enough. In fact, I am still using that pump on my current pool which is a 27ft AG. I have it paired with a 300lb. sand filter. (I went with an inground pump because they are made better. One of my co-moderators who knows a lot about pumps picked it out for me when I needed a replacement years ago.)

[michael3]

I read some posts about people changing there impeller to slow the water flow, is that a good option? right now replacing the pump really isnt doable financially. could I maybe go with a 1 hp impeller?

[BigDave]

I share Watermom's suspicion that the pump may be too big for the filter. Would you please (and if you already have , I'm sorry for asking again) give us exact manf. and model for pump motor and filter?
Recirc is fine if you want to - I don't see that it matters much if you don't have to backwash your filter very often. I'd like to hear that the pool water has gone from greenish to blue /gray. Once the algae is dead, I'd try to let it settle if possible and vac to waste.
Last year we saw several instances of oversize pumps pushing dead algae right through undersized sand filters.

Are you comfortable installing a valve between the pump and the filter to throttle flow and make the filter more effective?

[michael3]

Thanks BigDave, No problem with giving you that info again, its a Hayward Powerflo LX pump 1.5 hp says (70GPM) on it. Sand filter is a Hayward S200 and for the first time I read the filtration is 44 GPM ? Yikes so the pump is way way to big. Every since we paired these 2, 3 seasons ago we have always had great water but we started with good water, never tried to clean a swamp before. The pressure valve runs pretty constant at about 17psi on filter or recirculate, and about 10 on backwash. I of course run pvc plumbing and I do have a manual shutoff valve between the skimmer and pump, would that work or do I want it between pump and filter. I tested the water a few minutes ago and my FC was 32 and CC less than.5

[BigDave]

I missed the post about changing the impeller - that would work. I don't know if it's available for your pump but you could go down to 3/4 or 1/2 hp.
I think you could also throttle the flow with the suction side valve if that valve can be partly closed. You'll need to listen carefully for cavitation as the pressure on the suction side of the impeller gets lower and lower.
If the pressure is 17 on recirculate, what is it on filter?
After you get a little clearer - or kill the green, you might try to put a little DE in the skimmer and watch for it to come out the return. If it doesn't, you could try putting enough DE in to raise the filter pressure by 1lb. This can help filter finer particles. This should probably done in conjuction with getting your flowrate through the filter down. Probably want to wait on the DE till the green is gone.

[michael3]

BigDave, pressure on filter is the same as on recirculate is runs 17, runs about 10 on backwash. I closed the valve between my skimmer and pump alittle bit, the pressure on the gauge dropped to about 10 psi, but the flow coming back into the pool felt just as strong, and it sounded like it was putting alot of pressure on the plumbing lol. I posted under the pump forum about my sand, I put new quikrete pool filter sand in from home depot, the size of the sand is .85-.425, the sand filter says use .45-.55mm is this about the same? wondering now again if I damaged a lateral when I put new sand in. I cant tell if I`m blowing sand in the pool, I can still only see about 8 inches down.

[michael3]

I just went out to pool and decided to look at the old sand that came out of my filter, and the new sand that had blown out the backwash pipe when I first put it in, the new sand was alot finer was no where the size of the old sand that came out. Think I will empty the sand filter and double check the laterals and again replace the sand, this time with pool store sand and not pool filter sand from home depot. I know the pump is to big for my filter but this has to help I think lol

[michael3]

I havent had a chance to change the sand yet, I tested my water at 10:30 last night and had a FC of 32.5 and CC of less than .5( it didnt even need a full drop to clear it), this morning at 8:00 I tested and FC dropped 1 to 31.5 and CC was still less than .5 Water is still a lime green color and very cloudy, cant see over 8 inches down. When I added all those bags of shock Xtra blue, I think it was 12 of them over a span of a week, copper was .26% of the ingredient. Is there a chance I`m dealing with a copper issue and not an algae issue? FC has been at or slightly above 30 for going on 5 days now

[Watermom]

Yes, I think it is likely. I'm going to ask Ben to have a look at this thread and get his take on it.

[michael3]

Thanks watermom, it's so frustrating, to think I am the cause of this mess lol. I was reading on a very similar site that uses BBB method that when copper is the reason for the green water, it's usually clear green and a seqesturant? Lol will help with the color. Well ours is green and cloudy, I'm almost thinking its a copper(green water) and cloudy is the dead algae that won't filter out with my mismatched overpowered pump/filter and maybe wrong sand. Sorry for long post

[PoolDoc]

+ Post your pH, alkalinity and CYA test results, and tell me how you tested.

+ Do NOT use any more products with copper

+ List -- exact names of product and manufacturers -- all specialty pool chemicals used this season: algaecides, clarifiers, sequestrants, phosphate products, etc.

[michael3]

ok Ben, ph is 7.0, alka;inity test was 100, the color went from blue to yellow, the directions on my P233 said with high FC that is normal? CYA at 70-80, using the tester from my P233, ph test was from oto drop. All new reagents. Everything that has been added since the start of season: I have added over a 1 week period 12 1 lb packs of Aqua chem shock Xtra Blue, ingredients of 63% dichlor, .26% copper,36% other. thats per 1 lb pack. 2-3" pucks Aqua chem 99% trichlor 1% other. been using walmart bleach, and this stuff from home depot from sunbelt chemicals, its called Smart Liqui-Shock, ingredients 10% sodium hypochlorite, 90% other, contains 11% available chlorine. I have been using this as my main source for the past 2 weeks to keep FC up. I havent added any "shock" product or pucks in over a week, so when I tested CYA last sunday and got 55-60 maybe it all wasnt disolved? so the 70-80 I think may be closer to being right

[michael3]

I hear ya stma, we got people all around us enjoying there pools, here in georgia it's going to be in 90s next week, water is already 82. So bummed that we aren't swimming. I also just found out at Walmart I have actually only put 7 lbs of the shock xtra blue with copper in it. The other 5 lbs was didn't contain copper, and we on county water so never had a metal issue. Please let me know how the floc does, I'm ready to try that or a sequesterant lol

[Watermom]

I'm going to ask Ben to look at this thread again.

[michael3]

Thank you, watermom. This is almost comical, how seems nothing is working but I love the awesome support and advice from y'all

[PoolDoc]

We've seen repeated cases of "never ending fog" in pools with spring algae. It's not super frequent -- fortunately -- but it happens every spring.

-- Let me remove a side issue first -- @stma: if your pool turned from green to blue and than back to green, on use of "Metal Free", you have problem with metals (iron or copper) that is independent of any problem you have with cloudiness. Put another way, if your pool is cloudy, you have TWO problems: one with the metals in the water and the other with whatever is causing the cloudiness. --

@michael3: Before I start giving you guesses, let me say first that I do *not know* what the cause is . . . but

1. I can not recall a case of this happening on a pool with a DE filter;
2. It's most often AG pools;
3. Posters are typically coming to us some time AFTER the problem has become obvious;
4. Often, there has been prior use of a variety of algecides, flocculants, and clarifiers.
5. The problem gradually resolves itself, but sometimes it takes weeks.
6. Once the problem exists, slowing the flow (which creates a desirable little pump / BIG filter situation), doesn't seem to solve the problem quickly.

#1 tells me the problem is something not being filtered. Unlike cartridge and sand filters, DE filters are a positive filter -- excess pressure and flow may damage the filter, but will not usually push the dirt through the filter.

#2 suggests that the problem may result from the typical BIG pump / little filter problem that exists on AG pools, and that this problem is not so common when the filter is properly sized.

#3 - #6 suggests to me that, once the problem has existed for a week or more, there may not be any easy fix.

Here's what I think happens:

1. Pool gets algae.
2. Pool owner kills algae, but not all at once.
3. Dead algae is forced - due to BIG pump - through the filter. (<= I'm guessing, here)
4. This breaks the dead algae particles into fine dead algae fragments, so
5. Now the particles are TOO FINE to be removed, even when the flow is slowed.
6. Complicating the situation, use of flocs, clarifiers and some algaecides, actually work IN REVERSE, suspending these fine particles in the pool.

Here's the best I think you can do:

1. Add an overdose of chlorine -- with CYA=65, a 20 ppm dose would be good. (2 gallons of 6% bleach on a 6,000 gallon pool)
2. Turn the pump off and leave it off for 48 hours, and do NOT swim or disturb the water. (If you are lucky, the algae or other particles will begin settling to the bottom.)
3. Examine the pool. If the particles are settling, leave the pump off, and maintain chlorine by pouring bleach around the pool. It MAY TAKE A WEEK!
4. Once settling is complete, vacuum to waste. If necessary OVERFILL the pool. Be sure to move the vac head VERY SLOWLY to avoid stirring up the particles. If necessary, vacuum partially, refill, and vacuum so more. Be CAREFUL NOT to create water movement with the vac head, vac pool, vac hose, or water hose.
5. If you are not lucky, and nothing settles, simply resume normal operation but throttle flow through the filter to 1/2 or less of normal . . . and then be patient.
6. Alternatively, if you can drain and refill safely, do that.

There is an alternative approach: replace your sand or cartridge filter with a DE filter.

Sorry, I can't offer a better solution!

[michael3]

Were going to try the turn everything off for 48 hrs and keep chlorine over 20 and see if anything will settle approach, that Ben recommended, make sense that maybe with everything still it will settle. When we first started this season I was just dumping bleach and for a very brief period I got the start of the water from going green to a grey color. Ran short of funds and it went green again, when I started back that when I figured I was short on stabalizer and began throwing shock a it, never got that grey look back, just like green and cloudiness

[Watermom]

Good luck. Keep us posted how it is going.

[stma]

@Michael3: Any headway ?? i think i may be seeing a little bottom..although we have had torrential rains here the past 36 hours... Dont know if i need to start the "holding" process agin due to the rain...Let us know..

[michael3]

No headway at all here, tomorrow morning will be my 48 hr mark but its showing no signs of a slow settle. Tomorrow afternoon I will probably start a partial drain and refill, I am also going to install a valve between pump and filter and see if I can slow my water flow. Want to also check my sand again, I'm not convinced the sand I put in new is big enough, it seemed really fine

[PoolDoc]

@stma, I'm moving your posts back to your thread. Let's discuss Michael's pool here,
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?20216
and your pool, there:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?20437

@Michael3: you may want to reconsider the partial drain -- if you drain 1/2 of your pool, and refill, your pool will be LESS cloudy, but it will still be cloudy. Unfortunately, once you get a cloud of particles that won't settle and won't filter . . . it can take a VERY long time to remove them unless you install a DE filter. Even if you drain 90%, you are likely to have a 'hazy' pool when you refill.

Of course, you do not want to drain more than you can safely do -- with an AG pool, you may be able to drain 100%, but with partially buried, or oval pools, you may only be able to drain 80% without risking pool damage.

Also, I would encourage you to make SURE you're good to go, on refill. You got where you are, thanks to algae and additives. You want to make sure you're prepared to avoid a recurrence. For example, if you are going on vacation in 2 weeks, you might want to hold off on the drain till you get back. You'd hate to drain, refill, and then re-cycle due to algae while on vacation!

At a minimum, you probably want:
+ A K2006 + any refills needed.
+ A bucket of undiluted dichlor (Sams Club or Amazon)
+ Floater and some tabs, if you have a vacation to manage in the next few weeks.
+ 2 - 4 quarts of polyquat

Everything else, you should be able to get locally.

[michael3]

Thanks Ben, I really dont want to do the drain/refill. I just got my shut off valve installed between pump and filter, got psi reduced down from 17 to 10 and the flow into the pool has slowed. Will keep the chlorine up and run it like this and see what happens. At what pressure do you think it would be ok to try and add alittle DE to the skimmer? Cheapest I have found that stuff is lowes and they want $24 for a 24 lb box, I dont need that much lol

[PoolDoc]

You can add DE at any time. But test it first: if it blows through the filter and out the returns, you need to work on filter (slowing flow, adding sand) before adding more.

Buying small amounts of DE is hard, and if you want to clean up a cloudy pool, it may end up taking quite a bit anyhow, since filter runs may be very short. If you store the leftovers in a covered plastic bucket, it will last indefinitely.

[stma]

Michael: Just dumped in the DE Powder..... Took about a cupful+ to get the pressure up 2 PSI points... I'll let ya know the results...

[stma]

How did you do with new sand ?? Hopefully, that was your problem the entire time.... I too changed out my sand a few weeks back,,,, but i guess you dont wanna hear that it made no difference in the cloud !! : > I t did pick up a ton of crud out of the water though..
Let me know how you make out... Hopefully I'll post some good news pertaining to the DE powder now in my filter.... the PSI went up 50% so I know it didnt blow through the laterals and back into the pool.....
Thinking the DE will be the final straw in this scenario... i already started looking at winter covers to close this chapter in my summer : >

[michael3]

Got the new sand in, no loss on backwash put 1/3 cup of DE slurry in and psi went up 1. Then the storm hit lol waiting on it to pass so I can go check on it

[michael3]

Thanks for all the help Ben, I went out after the storm and pressure had risen about 6 psi and it being late I back washed. Pressure back down to 10. Going to wait till morning to add more DE. I'm actually optimistic about this, I know it will take time. A question I have, when I backwash and the DE comes out and hopefully dead algae, can I see it? From what I saw on my backwash it wasn't real cloudy, and I back washed for about 2 minutes

[PoolDoc]

When you are coating with DE, you probably won't need a long backwash, since you are really just washing off the surface.

[stma]

Michael, Just to toss in my 2 cents:
Woke up this morning like a kid on christmas morning... RAN OUTSIDE to hopefully see the bottom design on my pool... Unfortunately, it was not there : < >>My pressure had risen 8 pounds with very little flow out the return, so i backwashed for a few minutes... water came out pretty clean where I was really hoping to see every color in the rainbow flowing out of that tube.. Headed out again to coat the filter with DE and hope for the best... But check out the last four or five posts' that Ben left on my thread: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?20437 ..... where he speaks of "coating" the filter...

[michael3]

Just finished adding my 2nd application of DE, with the new sand and one application of DE I can see a difference in my water, the lime green is turning more of a cloudy color and my depth vision has improved some. Very optimistic

[stma]

SAME HERE !! overdosed the DE, waited for a psi rise, backwashed and continued those steps (did that about 5 times today) ... After all the experimenting, I'm hoping that 5oz of DE coats the filter and will do an overnighter without losing too much pressure from the return... Ben: I owe ya big time if this all works out...: Opry tickets or that beverage that made Tennessee GREAT !!!
Your choice.... : >