First test readings of season

[michael3]

I added my 2nd dose of DE about 3:00 at 9:00 my pressure has risen about 4-5 over the 1 pound increase from adding the DE. Is that pretty normal psi rise? I didn't expect a 8-10 real fast but realistic how long does it usually take

[PoolDoc]

how long does it usually take

There's no answer to that, except to say that it depends on what's in the water, and your filter. I once spent the night babysitting a vacuum DE filter that was below water level on a 240,000 gallon Girl Scout pool: it was stopping up ever 15 minutes due to an algae infestation, and would flood if not cleaned and handled promptly.

[stma]

@Ben:: Would you suggest to Michael (and myself) to stir or brush the floor and walls during this process ??

[PoolDoc]

Slimey or green walls & floors need to be brushed. Otherwise, I'd prefer to wait and vacuum what settles. BUT, that's preference, and not necessarily 'THE BEST WAY'.

[stma]

OK... Conversely, Should we be vacuuming to waste during this process ? Reason i ask:: is that this is the first time of the season I can actually SEE what's in the pool..(and it aint pretty). I'll take that question one step further and ask if I DO vacuum to WASTE, would i be losing the DE as well in the WASTE mode...?

[Watermom]

If there is lots of debris in the bottom, vac to waste. Using the waste setting bypasses the filter so you would not lose the DE.

[stma]

Im actually surprise H2O-Mom, that i got up as much as I did vacuuming blind..... Thanks as always..>!

[michael3]

I just vacuumed blind lol, I lost suction trying to get vac hooked up, I turned off pump to let it reprime and my pressure that had built to 17 went back to 10 with a good suction on vac head. It didn't take long for it to shoot back up to 17. I don't think I have much debri at all on bottom, I got nothing. I backwashed and recoated my DE. Slowly but surely it is clearing, my chlorine is holding overnight and I had a 4.5 drop during a very hot sunny day

[stma]

SOON we will no longer be the laughing-stock(s) of our neighborhood(s) ! Actually, some of the neighbors are coming over and giving me Cold Coronas while I drudge through this process !! I think they feel sorry for me : >

[michael3]

Lol, soon isn't the word for me. This is gonna take some time, I add enough DE to bump my pressure up 1-2 psi then it seems like it takes forever for the pressure to rise enough to backwash, makes you want to throw more DE at it but I understand that wont make it filter any faster. I also remember Ben saying some of the "fog" is to fine for even DE. Sigh....

[stma]

Like I had mentioned, I figured out my little sand filter will "take 4.5 oz of DE (which looks to be about 2 cups+) This much (according to Ben) should coat the entire top bed of the sand... it lasts for hours and hours before jumping psi..

But all day yesterday, i experimented with all different amounts of DE, as high as up to a double dosage (9oz)... That dose clogged things up within 30 minutes or so..... I simply backwashed for a few seconds and started again...God knows I have enough of this powder (10lbs)...

Personally, I made HUGE advances today......and for once in my life, I'm gonna have to be patient and hopefully things will De-Fog...! I'll see if I can post some pictures..

[michael3]

Lol, making progress or one to many free coronas lol. I tried about a total of a cup in about a 30 minute span and got close to a 5psi jump then it slowly rose, when I add enough to get a 1-2 rise it doesn't seem to want to increase

[stma]

Im wondering if I dose a heavy amount (2+ Cups) let the pressure increase THEN keep it there overnite.... I know the pressure out of the return wont be strong, hence the pool will be slow to re-circulate... but with that much DE coating the filter surface, I would ASSume I'd be catching the tiniest of particles....???

At the end of the day, it's all a crap shoot..

[BigDave]

...heavy amount (2+ Cups) let the pressure increase THEN keep it there overnite.... I know the pressure out of the return wont be strong, hence the pool will be slow to re-circulate... but with that much DE coating the filter surface, I would ASSume I'd be catching the tiniest of particles...You may but not very many of them. If the flow is too low there just won't be much water flowing through to clean. Moderation in all things.

[stma]

Thanks Big Dave::: I think the science behind this was to get as much as you can BEFORE the flow dwindles to nothing, backwash and continue the process... I've been doing such since Friday and have seen a dramatic improvement, but in all honesty, I really was hoping to see alot more improvement into the 3rd day...

[BigDave]

I'm glad to hear you both are seeing improvements in water quality. I've been following both these threads. Remember: POPP (Pool Owner Patience and Persistence) is free but hard to find. DE in your sand filter is clearly doing the job for you but using it this way basically creates a very small DE filter with proportionately limited capacity.

[michael3]

Yes BigDave, it does appear to be working, today after adding some DE I decided to hop in the pool with the vac and walk the pool very slowly and let my feet tell me whats down there lol cause I still cant see over 18-24" down. The bottom of my pool was very clean, only a few leaf stems and a couple slick spots but not slimey. When I vacuumed with that DE in the filter the pressure rose much quicker than just letting it filter on its own with the DE. The thing I cant figure out is I cant shake that green tint. My chlorine is holding at night, lose maybe 1 point, and get 0 to .5 on cc test. During the day I see about a 4-5 point loss. Been keeping the chlorine stil in the 20s. I want to say will the DE help with the greenish tint but I will say Can it help? lol I still wonder if all that shock with the .26% copper could have added enough copper to the water to get the green? if so would a sequestrant? help me

[michael3]

Is it normal or I should say is it a good thing if when I add the DE and my pressure does the 1-2 psi rise that it takes forever to get high enough pressure to require backwash? Does it mean my water is getting better or maybe the particles just are to small for even DE or maybe I didn't add enough to "coat" the filter. It has been taking all day or overnight to build

[PoolDoc]

A small increase on adding DE would be normal; don't backwash because of that. Instead, wait for at least a 5lb increase. As the pool becomes cleaner, it will take longer and longer to plug the filter. (And that's a good thing!)

[michael3]

Got flooding rains yesterday and this morning, allowed me to vacuum to waste for a good while :) got water level down to correct level and redosed with DE, visibility is definitely improving, I can look straight down on the side and see more of the liner. Tested water and after all the rain my chlorine was still 15.5, CC 0, ph a strong 7.2 close to 7.4, Alk was 80.

[michael3]

While I wait on the DE to help clear the cloud, and it is slowly. When I tried rubbing the vitamin c on my liner and nothing happened, does that eliminate metals completely or could I have metal in the water but no stains? I'm just wondering if I wanted to add something to my water to maybe help get rid of the green would a sequestrant work or how about polyquat 60

[stma]

I thought that maybe you needed to crush the Vitamin C tablet thinking it may have a "coating" on it's shell...However, I just checked my pool with the tablet alone and the stain came right off..... Sorry Michael !! thought that may have been your issue.... Things are looking a bit better for you, so I have been reading ?? Mine is now on auto-pilot, and the dramatic changes I saw over the weekend have now subsided....it's better for sure, but definitely not what I'm accustomed to seeing...

[michael3]

Same here, I know Ben and everyone said it didn't get this way overnight and it's going to take time. The DE is working, I can see about halfway down but that's still 2' to go. It takes the whole day to build enough pressure to have to backwash, so either it's getting better or the particles are to small for even DE. I want to try either a sequestrant or polyquat not sure which would help better. Lime green wont go away.

[PoolDoc]

You can try to commonly available products to test for metals: Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and Iron-Out (sodium sulfite + sodium hydrosulfite). If neither one lightens the stains, it probably is NOT a metal stain.

Unfortunately some non-metallic stains can be very chlorine resistant. But, using a sequestrant, chelant, or reducing agent (sodium hydrosulfite -- dissolves metal salts or stains) will have NO effect on a non-metallic stain.

[michael3]

Thanks Ben, I guess what I'm wondering is can I have metal in my water, it would have come from copper shock, but not stain the liner? In effect can metals in the water give the green color but not stained the liner? If so what approach would I take

[PoolDoc]

Please complete this form for me:

Pool Chart Entry Form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZSWc6M Q)

[stma]

@Ben: While I am making strides with the DE as Michael is, I did add a dose of Natural Chemistry's Metal Free into the water.. ( this is one of very few items I buy from the pool store)... it has worked like a charm the past 4-5 years....This years dose (which was yesterday) has yielded no results... I dropped FC to near -0- and PH in the 7.0 range..... (( Alk is 110 )) Any idea why this didnt take this time around... ? (the stains DO disappear with the Vit C powder)

[michael3]

Chart completed Ben

[PoolDoc]

@Ben: I did add a dose of Natural Chemistry's Metal Free into the water..) (the stains DO disappear with the Vit C powder)

Citric acid is incompatible with chlorine; if you have adequate chlorine in the pool, the citric acid will be destroyed almost instantly. This is also true of ascorbic acid (V. C) but it is a better stain remover than citric acid. However, to use either one, you have to operate with low / no chlorine, which is why we recommend dropping the chlorine and adding polyquat, when lifting (dissolving) metal stains, then adding HEDP (somewhat chlorine stable) to KEEP the metals in the water, THEN rechlorinating.

If you use the *old* Metal Free, it was EDTA based, which would still work for a little while in the presence of chlorine. Natural Chemistry reformulated that product on a no-notice basis.

[michael3]

Ben any chance you had time to look over the chart I filled out?

[stma]

Michael:::: I had posted to Ben yesterday that after dosing with PolyQuat, the water (within seconds) completely clouded over.... Although the water "blue'd" up somewhat, I could not see 6 inches into the water... Ben had mentioned that it could be a conflict of chemistry between the flocculant I dosed with and the Poly... Just got home 6 minutes ago and this pool is CRYSTAL CLEAR !!!!! As im attempting to clean up some metal stains, I have the CL at almost zero (going to do the Ascorbic treatment) and PH is low as well.... SO, I dont know if its a combination of all those factors or JUST the Poly, but its Crystal as I type this....
Perhaps your next $20 bill should be to PolyQuat and i hope you get the same results..>>!!!

LET US KNOW..,
Steve

[michael3]

steve,
was your water still a green tint to it when it cleared? I tried the floc attempt last night, added it at 9:00 and of course this morning at 9:00 little or no difference. I am going to leave it alone for a whole 24 maybe 36 hours. I am just so disgusted with this pool Im ready to drive my truck thru the side of it lol. I know even it the floc doesnt clear it Im going to vacuum to waste for anything it did drop. Wonder how long I would have to wait to try the poly after doing the floc and if my chlorine needs to be near 0
Oh and congrats on the crystal clear water :)

[stma]

it has the tint mike, but thats only from the metals in the water (of which you may or may not have)...I flocced about a week ago with no results...the directions on the floc bottle said,"for quicker results, double or triple the dosage" My water got 5 times the dosage....right, wrong, indifferent ?? I did it anyway.....Bottle also claimed to see a differnce within 4-6 hours. That did not happen....thats when I started the DE applications, which did work 'somewhat." BUT it was the POLY that changed everything (( atleast, Im hoping thats what did it)).. It kills me since the Poly is ALWAYS the first thing I do at the beginning of the season,,,,but I didnt do it this year.....Im wondering if I could have avoided ALL THIS TURMOIL with a 12oz dose of Algaecide.....
Wait for Ben to answer to this, but I'm on cocktail #6 in celebration !!

REALLY HOPE this is your cure for this green cloud the past 2 months...

[michael3]

Drink 1 for me lol, the floc I used said 8 oz for 10,000 gal. so I added 12 oz. said wait 12-24 hrs. didnt say anything about double dose for bad clouds lol. I can say this much though, my pool looks more cloudy with it in there than it does green, and I can see just a tad deeper along the wall looking straight down. Did you buy your poly local or you order it? Cheapest I found it was 17.00 online with 7.00 shipping. 24 total or I can go buy it local for 30 lol. As long as this has taken Im more out to pay the extra and go get it sooner

[stma]

I grabbed mine locally at the pool store (( Actually the wife had to get it since the store owner tossed me from the store for talking a customer out of the Baquacil program).... cost was 22 bucks....and so far (possibly): the BEST $22 I ever spent !!!

[michael3]

To funny, I thought I was gonna get tossed from a store when Ibought replacement sand, I asked if he had any reagents, he said no, only way to test water was with test strips, that I was going way overboard testing with reagents lol, I couldnt get out of there fast enough. I just called another pool store, they have there version of polyquat 60 for 25$ will have to go check it out tomorrow. I lowered my brush down the side of the pool and I could make out the shadow of the brush only about 3 inches from bottom, I`m hoping like crazy maybe in the morning this crap will have settled to the bottom

[PoolDoc]

Polyquat will *not* get rid of metals, per se. But it is an effective algaecide and a very effective clarifier. This latter capability makes it invaluable in managing metals during pool start up.

You can get it cheaper at Amazon . . . and shipping is free. (2 day, if you have Amazon Prime; UPS ground otherwise).


Kem-Tek 60% polyquat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Nava 60% polyquat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BFV4EQ/poolbooks) @ Amazon


www.poolsolutions.com/polyquat.html

[michael3]

Ben, when I get the polyquat, do Ineed to do anything special before adding it? get ph to certain spot? lower chlorine or even wait since Iadded the floc on wednesday? going to vac to waste tomorrow anything that dropped

[PoolDoc]

No.

Polyquat is pretty much compatible with anything . . . well, except for anionic flocculants and the like. It *will* use up some chlorine -- chlorine breaks it down, though the stuff it breaks down into is still effective against algae. But, it's probably not especially efficient to use polyquat at the same time you are running really high chlorine.

However, it's ideal for use during any sort of effort to remove or manage metal problems.

[michael3]

Great News, I can now see the bottom of my pool !!! Bad News, it aint pretty. I vacuumed to waste this morning after the floc was in the water for close to 36 hours, was still very cloudy. I re did the floc, and almost instant I could see the small particles sticking together and it has started sinking, I can see the bottom all the way around and even out in the middle. The Bad News is what I`m seeing in the middle looks to be a huge circle stain from the leaves that stayed there all winter up to late april. I know its a stain because I have walked the pool several times and havent felt anymore leaves and I am not picking up anything when I vac. After I vac to waste when everything settles that will settle lol, is there anything at all I can do for leaf stains?

[michael3]

Got to looking and pushed the brush around just alittle bit and the dark I`m seeing on the bottom is all the junk sinking to the bottom, I may end up with some stain but it looks like if Ican get the settled stuff vacuumed out Im going to be in pretty good shape.

[stma]

REALLY !!!??? Good Man !! Did you lose the cloud and the green as well...?? I think I need one more day of DE filtering and it will be perfect... Just did the ascorbic dose and the walls and floor came clean and free of stains within 45 minutes.... @ Ben: I'll assume Natural Chemistry Metal Free is not HEDP ?? Believe you mentioned Jack's Pink Stuff ...?

[michael3]

Steve, yes when I dumped the 2nd floc treatment in, within an hour 8 could see junk sticking together and it started settling. Clear blue water with all the crap on the bottom. I tried to vacuum some, I think I stirred up more than I got. This part won't be fun. I had to stop and I am adding more water

[stma]

So it sounds as though you needed Floc (which didnt work for me) and I needed Poly... JUST REMEMBER this next year !!

[michael3]

Stuff worked great, now to get it off the bottom, seems like no matter how slow I went I was stirring up more than I vacuumed. This part isn't going to be fun wonder if the de would catch it, I would backwash every 5 minutes if I knew I could vac thru filter

[stma]

you could attempt it..... if you look at your return jet when you hover over some of the crud, and you dont see it return to the pool, you may have a shot.... know what I mean ? It worked for me that way....

[michael3]

May be a question for Ben or Watermom or BigDave, they been so helpful. Can I vac the floc garbage that settled to the bottom thru the filter with th DE powder added or will this make a royal mess? The floc worked great but trying to ease over the debri I'm stirring more of it up than I'm vacuuming. Would adding polyquat at this point allow me to vac thru filter?

[BigDave]

You, both of you(michael3 and stma), are getting results with methods that are pushing the edges of what we recommend. I'm glad you're finding a path that works. Moreover I'm really interested to hear how you're using these tools to get clear. I'm learning a lot in these threads - thanks.
I can only agree with stma that
... if you look at your return jet when you hover over some of the crud, and you don't see it return to the pool, you may have a shot...Adding anything right now is a unpredictable gamble - it might be OK. it might make more cloud.
The secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This post will self destruc...

[stma]

The secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This post will self destruc...
LOVE IT !!

It's true though Dave...What has always worked in the past, didn't work this year... I myself, am blaming it on the 17 year Cicada :)

[michael3]

To funny guys, lol. Self destruct, I keep waiting on my pool to spin around and around and spit green stuff at me lol. THeres no doubt the DE was working but with as cloudy as my pool was there was no way it would have cleared this season I dont think. When I added the floc the first time it didnt show any real signs of working so I did it again and within hours stuff was sticking together and sinking, my water was sparkling, I could put the vacuum pole in the water and couldnt see any debri in the water going by it. Like I said yesterday I think I stirred up more than I vacuumed out, but this morning it has all settled nicely on the bottom again. I think Im going to try and maybe just hover over the debri and try not to push it around. Wish I would have took pics of this whole process, I have a couple of how green the pool was but wasnt sure either how to post them or if I could lol.