New pool owner, need help getting water right

[amber]

This is the first time I have had a pool. We have just put up a pool filled it from the hose about 2 weeks ago. Brought water to our local pool store. Added what they told me to add to get the PH, TA, CH, CYA & algicide where they said it should be. They talked me into the Susatin pool chemical so right now that is what I am using. Since then I have been reading pool forums like crazy. I added the shock tablets last night. I received my TF-100 test kit today & these are my first readings this morning.
FC 19
CC 4.5
PH 7.6
TA 130
CH 200
CYA 20
Tested Chlorine again 4 hours later:
FC 15
CC 6

I also went to my local pool store their computer is saying
TC 7.8
FC 7.8
PH 7.8
TA 175
CH 250
CYA 40

After reading through websites it seems like the BBB method is the way to go but since I have already bought the Sustain system I want to finish them before I switch since I just don't have the money to through out. Any advice would be great. Also, where should me chlorine levels be & how high is to high to swim? Pool store says its OK to swim. I am just confused.

[PoolDoc]

The TF-100 is a nearly exact copy of the PS234 I developed, and as such, is much more accurate than the computer testing.

To answer your questions:

1. Your chlorine levels are not unsafe for swimming, but they were unsafe for swimSUITS. (High chlorine + low CYA will kill swimwear quickly; high chlorine + high CYA does not usually).

One quick rule of thumb: swimwear at both the extreme low end, and at the high end (> $100), is not very chlorine resistant at all. Low end suits (<$30) can be worn at the beach or in un-chlorinated water; high end suits are really just made for show, not swimming. Of course, in the in-between range, some suits are very sensitive and some are not.

2. BUT, with the low CYA, chlorine levels will drop rapidly in full sun.

3. Or not. Sustain literature reports that their "Sustain Summer Shield Chlorine" produces residuals that test as "combined chlorine" but aren't. My guess is that they ARE combined chlorine, but not the common ones. Having to investigate this -- the Sustain program may be using old-tech: sulfamic acid as a sun shield, and chloro-sulfamic acid compounds as 'chlorine reserve' and algae inhibitors.

Here's what PPG has to say:
http://www.ppg.com/chemicals/askjoepool/questions/Pages/080_oto.aspx

You might want to look and see if this patent number is on the bottle:
http://www.google.com/patents/US6471974

I'll have to get back to you on that.

[PoolDoc]

Don't panic -- I'll probably end up moving some of these posts to the China Shop section (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/forumdisplay.php?156-The-China-Shop) -- but I'm just collecting references here, regarding use of N-chlorosulfamate in pools:

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC37520

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-10212004-135921/unrestricted/DeQueiroz_dis.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30122152/N-Halamines

www.google.com/patents/US6471974#backward-citations
www.google.com/patents/US7204931
www.google.com/patents/WO2005023712A1?cl=en
http://www.google.com/patents/US2438781
http://www.google.com/patents/US3583922
http://www.google.com/patents/US3767586
http://www.google.com/patents/US5948315
http://www.google.com/patents/US6162371

[PoolDoc]

Just found this:
"Sustain Summer Shield Chlorine Extender is the brains of the Sustain System. It's not only smart, but unique to PPG, protected by a U. S. Patent."
http://www.ppg.com/chemicals/askjoepool/questions/Pages/260_summer.aspx

If you can find the patent number, I can tell you for sure what's going on, and how to manage your pool.

[amber]

Wow thank you so much for the information & the research you are doing! On the bottom of the 3" tab container & the energizer tablet container it says Pat# 4,732,288 & Other Pat Pending 4,967,926. I don't see anything on the summer sheild I don't see anything.

[PoolDoc]

On the bottom of the 3" tab container & the energizer tablet container it says Pat# 4,732,288 & Other Pat Pending 4,967,926.

Wow! PPG claims their "Sustain Summer Shield Chlorine Extender is the brains of the Sustain System. It's not only smart, but unique to PPG, protected by a U. S. Patent."

But here are the patent numbers you provided:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4732288 : "Child-resistant molded plastic container lid for open head containers"
http://www.google.com/patents/US4967926 : "Child-resistant molded plastic container lid for open head containers"

No patents for chemistry. How bogus!

If you could, do this:
1. Check the Shield container, again, just to be 100% there is no patent listed.
2. If not, call the customer service number on the container, if any, and ask them. OR use this contact form: http://www.ppg.com/chemicals/askjoepool/Pages/contactus.aspx

Say something like this, "I use the Sustain system, but it's kind of expensive, and I'm being told that it's probably a bogus system, and not worth the money. They said the patent numbers listed were for the CONTAINERS, and not the chemicals, and that you may not really have patented chemicals. Can you tell me what the Sustain patent number is?"

That will freak them out, and is much more likely to get a response, then if I ask.

[amber]

The only number I see on the summer sheild is L289A-200B. The sheild energizer 3/4" tabs has a few numbers EPA Reg No 748-286, EPA Est. No. 58401-IL-1, PPG Product# 98994, LP20TSUS-0911E, ESL051811 REV093011 & the 3" cholorinating tabs EPA Reg No 748-275, EPS Est no 58401-IL-1 PPG Product No 38784, LP16TSUS-0911C, ESL051911 REV 093011.
I also sent them an email asking for the patent numbers. Thank you again for your help!

[amber]

They emailed me the MSDS sheets. Can you tell me how to post an attachment? I do not have a button that says manage attachments.

[PoolDoc]

email them to me. poolforum@gmail.com

Were the MSDS sheets in response to your email requesting a patent number? If so, their patents are probably the expired ones Chem Geek found.

[amber]

Yes, I will forward you the response I got.

[amber]

Did you get my email?

[PoolDoc]

Sorry, yes I did.

I was having a discussion about it with several senior forum members . . . and then forgot to come back here.

Bottom line:

1. As best we can tell, the PPG Sustain program with "Summer Shield" is based on a class of chemicals called imidazolidinones. These can be combined with chlorine to 'store' chlorine in the pool, in a relatively inactive form that tests as combined chlorine. PPG has a expired patent for their use in pools: http://www.google.com/patents/US4681948

2. This system is largely untested for human safety. This is probably why it is allowed solely for experimental purposes in Europe and Australia. Untested does not equal unsafe -- it just means nobody knows.

3. Normally, a sanitizer system, based on a different chemical set (chlorine + imidazolidinones), would have to be registered with the US EPA as an approved pesticide (sanitizer). This is an expensive and difficult process. PPG appears to have ducked this requirement by having YOU combine the chlorine and imidazolidinone, by adding them separately to the pool. This is not a new idea in the pool industry: the ammonia based mustard algae treatments employ the same tactic.

Please understand; this is not a criticism of PPG. The EPA requirements have made it so expensive to introduce new sanitizers and algaecides to the pool market, that no one has done so in probably 25 years. The pool market is just not large enough to justify -- to most corporate accountants -- spending millions of $'s for R & D and testing, on an unproven product.

It's also not necessarily a criticism of the EPA. The EPA is a huge bureaucracy, and like any bureaucracy, engages in a lot of behaviors that make sense only when seen from the point of view of the individual career-saving moves of many bureaucratic 'ants' within the anthill. So, the EPA inevitably does stupid things -- like all bureaucracies do.

Is it worth it to make sure that the products that DO get through are safer, at the cost of making sure that the only NEW products that are developed have a huge potential market? I don't know.

But, in this case, it does mean that there's very little published information about either the safety or the efficacy of chlorinated imidazolidinones.

4. BUT. (And this is a big BUT)
But, there is nothing in the Sustain / Shield literature that seems to me to offer ANY benefits beyond what you would get from running what I have called a high C2 program: high chlorine + high CYA or stabilizer.

You can use the K2006 test kit to run CYA levels >100ppm, and use the Best Guess chart (link in my sig) to do the exact same thing PPG is trying to do with the Sustain program: keep a large amount of chlorine in reserve, but immediately available.

Doing so would be
(a) a LOT cheaper;
(b) use WELL studied chemicals KNOWN to be reasonably safe;
(c) cut you free from your Sustain dealer


By the way, thanks for bringing this up. Several of us have wondered for years what Sustain was, and have speculated on various possibilities. But this time, for whatever reason, Chem_Geek, Waterbear, and I put our heads (and our Googling abilities) together, and worked out what I'm 95% sure is the correct explanation of all this.