Any requirements for softened water?

[prh129]

I have a well with a water softener so I will get water trucked in initially to fill my pool but then will be using the softened water whenever more water is needed. I haven't seen hardness discussed much but I just pre-ordered the PS234 test kit and I see that calcium hardness is tested. Is there another chemical beyond the 3-Bs that I'm going to need to control hardness? Thanks. Peter

[waterbear]

First question I have is what type of pool do you have. Calcium hardness is a definate issue for plaster pool but not that important for vinyl and fiberglass unless you have a heater or a lot of grouted tilework. Calcium hardness is increased by adding calcium hardness increaser which I belive is 73% calcium chloride(someone please check me on that!). It can be found at your pool store and also at a home improvement store. I keep my calcium hardness at 140 ppm for my heated fiberglass pool/spa and I use softened water for my fill since my whole house including the outdoor faucets is plumbed thru the water softener. (I know, rather dumb, but I bought the house that way and it's just not cost effective to change it!)

[prh129]

It's an above ground so I assume vinyl. I was reading elsewhere about spa manufacterers not recommending the use of softened water. People had responded to that saying it was far easier to deal with correcting softened water than to have to remove the minerals you would get with bypassing the softener. That seems to make sense as my water has a lot of iron and manganese so it would seem a lot easier to add stuff to the water if I need to to bring levels up than it would to try to remove minerals that were already in it. My whole house is also plumbed through the water softener although there is a bypass mechanism on the softener. It would be a pain to keep having to switch it in and switch it out and it looks like there wouldn't really be a big benefit to doing that anyway.
Since a spa is usually fiberglass, I would assume then that the hardness would affect the heater somehow - is that right? Is it corrosive to metal? If that is the case, are there any concerns as far as the pool pump?

[aylad]

You are right, it will be a WHOLE lot easier to add calcium than it will be to deal with the iron and manganese in the water. You can add calcium just by using cal-hypo to chlorinate until you get the calcium where you want it to be, then just switch to bleach

Janet

[waterbear]

Be aware that a standard water softener does not remove metals. It will remove calcium and magnesium (Hardness) and replace them with either sodium or potassium(Softness) depending on what type of salt you use in the softener. Metals need to be removed by other processes (ion exchange (2 or 4 column), reverse osmosis, or special units for the type of metal(except for iron, there is a special water softener salt pellet that includes an iron reducer in it). If you have problem water you might want to get a unit that will take care of the problem that you have. The best place to start would be your local water utiltiy.

[duraleigh]

Hi, Waterbear,

That's a very informative post. So, for new pool owners who insist on filling with high iron content water, would it be economically feasible to then circulate the pool through a water softener with the special salt pellet?

That's a common issue on this forum and hard to find an inexpensive answer.

Dave S.

[prh129]

When we first bought the house, there was no water softener. Our water comes from a well. The toilets had a reddish-brown stain which would start to appear after several days. We had the water tested which showed the iron and manganese content and got a quote for a water softener. I was going to wait to install one but when we hooked up our new washing machine, I ran it empty to make sure everything was OK. The wash tub was white and as the water was filling up I could start to see the reddish brown tint and see stuff floating in the water. I got the softener installed soon after.
Since having the water softener, there are no more issues with the reddish brown toilet staining and no more stuff floating in the water (it's been about 10 years now).
I checked the Culligan site and they say they can usually remove soluable iron and particulate iron if the particles are large enough.
I believe that the filter media is supposed to trap calcium and magnesium ions (iron too?) then when you backwash the filter, it exchanges the trapped ions for sodium from the salt in the brine tank.
I've seen concerns about using softened water but have not seen specifically what the potential problem is with using it.

[waterbear]

I am not an expert, just an informed consumer who had some water problems at my new (2 years ago) house in a new town. I suggest contacting your local water utility and perhaps a water treatment company or three(beware, there are a lot of rip offs in that industry that want to sell you everything you don't need but there are honest folk also! Sort of like pool store industry!). There is a lot of info on the 'net also. The main caution I will give you is to DO YOUR HOMEWORK and get several opinions. It would not hurt to pretest your water with your pool test kit first so you can see if the pH, Hardness, and Alkalinity readings are similar to the ones you get from the water softener and treatment companies you call. Be aware that the hardness test that many of them do are for Total (calcium and magnesium) hardness and therefore might be a much higher reading than the one the pool test kit (calcium hardness) will give you but it is a starting point. If you have access to any metal tests (copper, iron, etc.) it would not hurt to do them also. Final thing, if the water treatment company is using test strips instead of drop based and titration tests same cautions apply as to testing your pool with them. I lucked out on the third guy that came to test my water. He had drop based test kits, was very knowlegeable, did extensive testing on my water both before the units were installed and several times after, and gave me a few options on the best ways to deal with the problems. He also suggested that I start with the least expensive way and add to it if there was a need. Guess who got my business? I have to say he was completely right in his recommendation (he talked me out of reverse osmosis for drinking water and put a whole house carbon prefiler on). He even tested for bacteria in the water! The water coming out of my taps is even safe to use in my salt water reef aquariums and that is amazing! Needless to say I fill my pool and spa with this water also. I just add a bit of calcium to bring it up to about 140 ppm for my heated fiberglass pool which gives me a near perfect saturation index and Hamilton index.

[gwrace1]

I would disagree about a softener removing metals. I have tested my water both before and after softening as I'm on a south texas well. The water has significantly less metals after being softened. The ingredient in the Iron Removing Salt pellets is citric acid. You can also use citric acid to remove metal stains from any pool. Additional reduction in metals occur when I prefilter the water before it goes into the softener.The 2 micron whole house filter I use becomes red with iron after just a few hours of filling the pool.

[waterbear]

I would disagree about a softener removing metals. I have tested my water both before and after softening as I'm on a south texas well. The water has significantly less metals after being softened. The ingredient in the Iron Removing Salt pellets is citric acid. You can also use citric acid to remove metal stains from any pool. Additional reduction in metals occur when I prefilter the water before it goes into the softener.The 2 micron whole house filter I use becomes red with iron after just a few hours of filling the pool.
But is is not the softener that is removing the metals. It is your prefilter. Same type of setup that I have now (micron and carbon--tanks is as big as the softner resin tank!) If you are using plain salt pellets in the softener like I am it will not have any effect on the iron content.:)

[prh129]

Looking around on the web, I am finding that soluable iron will get trapped in the filter resin and the normal filter backwash doesn't wash it out. There are several products such as Iron Out and Rust Out that are supposed to remove the iron and other debris from the filter resin.
I have noticed lately that my water softener (10 years old) has been using a lot less salt lately and water useage has not decreased (it has probably increased). I do not have a prefilter on the unit, water comes directly from the well tank.
I just picked up some Super Iron Out today so I will try it out.
When the PS234 kit ships out I should be able to analyze the water going in and coming out of the filter. That should tell the story.

[prh129]

Actually, it looks like it won't tell the story as the PS234 doesn't look like it tests for iron.

[waterbear]

prh129, just be aware that you will only be testing calcium harness, not total (calcium and magnesium) hardness. Total hardness is a different test. Taylor makes a few and most of the pool test strips I have seen test total and not calcium hardness although they do not have much accuracy. As for testing for Iron, once again you will need a separate test for that since it is not in Ben's kit.
Also, my understanding is that when Iron gets trapped in the resin it reduces the efficiency of the resin at removing hardness. When my system was installed I did not have an iron problem and my installer told me I was lucky because he said my resin would last much longer.

[gwrace1]

The softener plays a major role in removing iron. I've tested if both ways with and without the prefilter. I installed the pre-filter mainly to reduce the work of the softener and prolong the softener resin life.

Before the pool forum data was lost, Ben had an extensive post on using a water softener to remove metals that included Iron and Maganese.

For my pool it worked wonders. I did go thru a lot of regeneration cycles and salt for a 26000 gallon pool. I'm using an SWG so some salt in the pool was not a concern but an aid in getting to the level the SWG required.