My Green Pool Saga - Help!

[Pamsel]

Hello, I am new here and am one of those people who hates my pool right now. I have a totally green, cloudy pool and nothing I do seems to fix it. Here is my history with the pool this spring. I opened the pool (14,500 gal in-ground) mid-April. It was dark brown, as it is every year we open it. (We bought this house with a pool and have been trying to learn by trial and error the past 4 summers how to take care of it.)

I started out by sweeping the entire pool to get debris off the bottom. I did this twice, even though I couldn't see the bottom at all, but I believe I got most of the debris. Then I put in 2 qts of Stain Ban (per my pool supply store instructions), waited 24 hrs and added 15 gal of liquid chlorine. Next day I put in 1 qt of Algicide. Over the next 10 days the water cleared up fairly well - I could see the bottom. Then we had an unexpected death in the family and had to go out of state for a week. We left the filter running, but when we got home, the pool had turned green. The next week we had rain constantly and since that time, the pool has stayed green. About 2 weeks ago, I again shocked the pool with another 15 gal of liquid chlorine. The water cleared up but there was visible dark green algae on the sides and bottom of the pool. I was vacuuming to waste and was able to get most of it off, but it seemed to keep returning.

I talked to the "pool expert" at the pool supply store and asked him if I should brush all that visible algae off the sides and bottom of the pool in order to get rid of it. He told me not to, but that it would break up on its own once I killed it. He told me to put 1 qt of 3-month algicide, wait 24-48 hrs, then shock with 3 lbs of lithium shock. I put in 1 qt of the algicide, waited 36 hrs and saw no difference, so added a second quart of algicide, waited another 36 hrs, then put in the 3 lbs of lithium shock. The only change has been that the water turned from clear to cloudy green.

When I tried to get back in touch with him last Saturday, no one answered the phone at the store. I spoke to another pool supply store who told me that I absolutely had to brush all that visible algae off the pool. I should do that, then let it settle with filter off for a short time, then vacuum, then put in 5# of "Super Soluble" which is Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate. I was told to use this rather than liquid chlorine because my PH was high - 8.4 and that this would balance both the PH and the chlorine level, without me having to add acid first and then chlorine. So, I brushed the whole pool down, shut off the filter to let it settle. It never settled, but instead turned the whole pool completely dark green and completely cloudy. I can no longer see the bottom of the pool. So, I decided to go ahead and shock it with the 5# Super Soluble last night and this morning woke up to see that it has not changed at all! Still completely dark green and completely cloudy. If I could, I would drain the thing and fill it in with dirt today!

I only have test strips to use right now. Here are my readings:

Total Chlorine - 1ppm range
Free Chlorine - 1 ppm range
PH - 8.4 (did not come down at all as I was told it would)
Alk - 240
Hardness - Ok range (250-500)

I found this site today out of desperation and I've been reading about using plain Clorox, baking soda, etc and about other test readings that I don't even know what they are. (CLY or something like that, I think.) I really have no idea where to go from here. I have spent over $300 on this pool already this spring and it is no better than when I started 6 weeks ago.

Can someone please tell me what I need to do, right now, step by step? Right now, there is so much chemical in the water I don't even know where to begin to work with this mess. I am at a loss, discouraged and disgusted with all the wasted money. Thank you so much for any help!

P.S. When I take my water to the pool supply store to have it tested, all they do it stick the same test strip in it that I have at home. They don't tell me anything more than I already knew.

[Sherra]

We need to know what your CYA is. If you don't have a CYA test in your drop based test kit (strips are crap...don't use them), then take a sample to the pool store and have them test it. Then, go to the grocery store/Sam's Club/Wal-Mart/Costco/K-Mart/you get the point, and buy about 10 gallons of PLAIN 6% bleach (could be called "ultra" bleach)...name brand, generic, doesn't matter, as long as it doesn't have any "scents" added to it. Depending on your CYA level, bring your chlorine level up to the "shock" level in Ben's Best Guess Chart (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365) using the calculations from the BleachCalc (http://www.hal-pc.org/%7Emwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe). Test your Chlorine level AT LEAST twice a day (sundown and in the morning), 3 times is ideal and add enough bleach after each test to bring your level back up to "shock" level. (Shocking is an action, not a product.) When your chlorine level stays stable from evening until morning, then everything in your pool should be dead. During this whole process your filter should be running 24/7. Within a couple of days your pool should be cleared up.

You need to get your pH down also...now! Go buy some muratic acid (home improvement stores have this sometimes in the paint section, sometimes in the pool supply section). Add 1 or 2 cups, wait a couple of hours, retest, then add another 1 or 2 cups until your pH gets down to within normal range. Your ALK is really high, that needs to come down too! Follow the directions in this thread to lower your ALK... http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=191

If I've forgotten something important the moderators/"elders" of the board will correct me I'm sure. :)

[Pamsel]

Sherra, thank you so much for your reply. Can you please tell me what CYA is? I don't have it on the test strip. I will go get a drop kit today and the acid and chlorox.
BTW, When I take my water to the pool supply store to have it tested, all they do it stick the same test strip in it that I have at home. They don't tell me anything more than I already knew.

[Sherra]

CYA is cyanuric acid/stabilizer/conditioner. 99% of the "pucks" or "sticks" you get now a days have CYA in them (if the ingredient starts with "trichlor", then they've got CYA added to them). TOO much CYA can become a very serious pain in the you-know-what when it comes to keeping your pool sparkling clean. You do need SOME CYA in your pool though to keep the chlorine from getting "eatten up" by the sun during the day. If your pool store uses the strips, fire the pool store...find another one. You need to look for a drop based test kit that tests for the following:

FC - Free Chlorine
CC - Combined Chlorine
It's best to have both the drop based kit (OTO) and the (DPD-FAS) powder test - the DPD-FAS tests will test up to about 50 PPM for chlorine, which is what you'll need to test accurately for your "shock" levels.
TA - Total Alkalinity
CA - Calcium Hardness
pH - pH (phenol red drop based test)
CYA - Cyanuric Acid/Stabilizer

If your pool store doesn't carry the kits that test all that, sometimes Wal-Mart will carry tests that test all those things, if you've got an ACE Hardware around sometimes they will carry them also. Other than the test kit Ben sells on the Poolsolutions web site (sister site to this forum), the next best is the Taylor K2006.

[Pamsel]

Another thing, in reading the link on lowering Alkalinity, he speaks of aerating the pool as a part of the process. What do I do if I don't have an aerator of any kind and it's not ready to put 10 year old boys in yet? Will the process not work if I don't aerate?

[aylad]

The aeration is what allows the carbon dioxide to be off-gassed, so it is an important part of the process. You can get a cheapie fountain in the pool section at almost any store that would work fine. You also can achieve a similar effect by aiming your return eyes toward the surface of the water so that it creates a ripple from your return jets.

Before you shock your pool, we really need to know if there is any metal content (copper/iron?) in your water, and what type of finish you have. Otherwise, Sherra's got you on the right track.

Janet

[Pamsel]

Hi Janet,

It is a vinyl lined pool.

How do I know if I have copper, etc? The water in our area has a lot of iron in it - it has been a problem in the past, as in when we add water it comes from the hose into the pool yellow/brown and turns the entire pool a greenish yellow. It has been helped a lot by adding water via putting the hose in the skimmer and having it go through the filter first. It would be a good guess that we have metal content in the pool, especially since I have added water several times with the garden hose, due to vacuuming to waste and lowering the water level.

[aylad]

The iron content is what I was getting at. My understanding is that you need to put a metal sequestering agent into the pool before you shock it, to keep it from staining. Also, adding water via the skimmer does help too. Search through the forums for posts by mbar--she's our resident metals/staining expert around here, and she may be able to help you get it cleared up without staining your pool.

[Pamsel]

I think that may be why the pool store told me to use "Stain Ban" first thing in the spring. I do have some of that on hand, if needed. I will try to find mbar - Thank you!

[aylad]

I sent her a pm asking her to take a look at your post....
In the meantime, work on your alk problem, and I'd keep my Cl level at least 3-5 until marie tells you what to do from there.
Janet

[Pamsel]

Thank you so much Janet. I'm off to Wal-Mart, or wherever needed, to get a test kit, chlorox and muriatic acid. Will check back as soon as I get home. The help is very much appreciated!

[mbar]

Hi Pamsel, don't worry, we will get your pool ready to swim in, and not have you go broke in the meantime. Welcome to the forum. First, do you have a well, or a way to add water without it costing too much? If so, I would try draining part of the water down 1/3, fill it back up, drain it down 1/3, and continue again. This way it shoud get some of the stuff you have been putting in it out. Your ph and alkalinity are very high, and high ph with high chlorine will percipitate metal right out of the water onto the pool surface. What kind of pool do you have, vinyl, concrete or fiberglass? Once you drain and refill, you should get a complete set of your chemical numbers like they have mentioned before. If you can't get a test that tests for all (cl, cc, ph, alk, cal, cya) then maybe you can find another pool store that tests for all this without test strips! Don't buy anything they are trying to sell you, just get some sequestering agent - like sequasol, metal free, jack's magic, or something that will bind with the metal to keep it in suspension. Put this in first - put at least as much as the bottle says for your size pool, and a little extra too. Check your ph and make sure it is between 7 & 7.2. If your alk is high, turn up the return jets till they bubble on the water. Add enough chlorine to shock the pool - it depends on how much cya (stablilizer) you have in your pool - here is a chart:


Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

as you can see it is important to know this cya number, as you may think you are shocking your pool, when in reality you need a lot more chlorine to kill the algae. You must keep the shock level constant, letting the chlorine go up and down will only extend the amount of time you are dealing with the algae. If you don't get a test kit that goes above 5 you can do a search here on the forum for the "shot glass method" that along with distilled water the kit will allow you to test higher.
Don't worry if you get any staining while you are clearing the pool of algae. It is much more important to get rid of the algae, and then if you have stains, we can deal with them.
Just remember the less stuff you put in your pool, the more money in your pocket, and the easier it is to balance the water. All you really need to keep on hand is baking soda, borax, bleach and muriatic acid. And of course a good test kit. The one that is sold on the "Pool Solutions" site is the best in my opinion - the investment will save you much money in the future.
Please feel free to ask any questions you have - remember there are no stupid questions!

[Pamsel]

Hello Marie,

Thank you for your reply. I just returned home from my second trip to find a decent test kit - 3 towns and 7 stores later, I think I have one that will do. It does test CYA, Total Chlorine, Alk, PH, Hardness. I am going to go to work on the pool now that I have the test kit. I guess I will first drain it down and refill before I start using the muriatic acid and chlorine. Is that correct? I understand that I should work on the PH level first, with muriatic acid. When that gets into proper range, then the chlorine and the sequestering agent. Do I have this straight? BTW, it is a vinyl lined pool.

Thanks again, for your help!

[mbar]

Yes, I would drain and refill first - try to get your cya down to 50 if you can, but 60 to 90 is ok if you want to run high chlorine. We usually recommend 35 - 50 on this board. Next add the muriatic acid there is the bleach calc on this forum, Here is the link:
http://www.hal-pc.org/~mwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe
You can use this to figure out how much bleach you need, how much acid for ph, or borax and others - in the upper left corner it says more calcs, click on that and you will see the different calculations you can use. If you go to settings make sure it is on the imperial so you get the calcs in gallons. Bring your ph down to 7.2. The ph will not register lower right away, so don't add any more than the calc tells you, it will show up later.Five minutes after adding the muriatic acid you can add the sequestering agent - like I said, add a little more than the bottle says. You can add the bleach right after - enough to bring the chlorine up to shock level. Brush the pool and Keep the filter running 24/7. Keep checking the chlorine and bring it back to shock level until you hold the chlorine overnight, then add 2 days just to be sure. You want to make sure all the algae is dead. You should see a noticable improvement in the water color after you hit it with the bleach in a couple of hours. Your water may get cloudy from the sequestering agent and the dead algae. Just keep the chlorine up, and the filter running and your water will clear up. Keep me posted on your progress. Once you take control of your own pool, you will find it much more enjoyable, and you will get to know how your own water is - everyone's is a little different! You will get used to how much chlorine your pool uses, and you will spend hardly anytime on pool care.

[Pamsel]

Hi, Marie. Here is what is probably a very dumb question, but here goes: We pay for "clean" water from a community well. But we also have a pond in our backyard in which we have installed a "wet well" which allows us to water the garden and to irrigate with water from the pond. Would it be a terrible idea to use water from the pond to put into the swimming pool? It certainly would save money, but I am thinking it would be a bad idea to use pond water because of the algae, microorganisms, etc that would come with the pond water. I just thought that perhaps the filter and the chlorine could possibly take care of whatever comes with the pond water... Wishful thinking or not? Thanks!

[mbar]

I know some people on this forum have used water from a pond. I am not sure what you would have to do differently that to get get the water clean , because I never did it, I am afraid to encourage, or discourage it. In my opinion, cleaning up the water from a pond would be no different from cleaning up a pool that was left standing and turned green, except for the amonia that would be in the water from the fish - but I could be wrong. Maybe you could pm Waste - he is really good with the chemistry of water, and the organisms that can grow.

[Pamsel]

Thanks again, Marie. First we'll get it cleaned up and then we'll see about adding pond water, when needed. I'll try to get ahold of Waste when I'm at that point.

[Pamsel]

Well, I have drained the pool about 1/3 and refilled it overnight. I recirculated the water for 45 minutes to be sure it was well-mixed with fresh water. Took readings - have no chlorine reading, no CYA reading, Alk is 310 and PH is above 8.2 (top reading on my kit). . . probably about 8.4.

Am goint to start the process now> I have attached a small tube with a 45 degree elbow to one of my jets and turned the other one upward and am getting nice aeration now. Will add 12 oz of muriatic acid to start, then the sequestering agent. I'm not sure I understand the chlorine calc chart. It seems that if my CYA reading is =>0, which it is, since I have no reading, then I need to shock to the lowest level, in other words get my chlorine level to 10ppm. Is this correct? I guess I don't understand what CYA is. It seems that since nothing has been touching the algae so far, that I would probably need to put in a lot more chlorine than I have in the past, but this seems to indicate that I need the lowest level? Am I misunderstanding something here?

[Sherra]

If you truly have a CYA reading of 0 (and with opening to a brown quagmire and having not added any additional CYA this season, it's very possible to have a 0 CYA reading), then yes, you'd use the first line of Ben's Best Guess Chart. The key to the whole "getting rid of the green" process is consistently keeping the chlorine at "shock" level until it clears up and you have a CC reading of 0 and your chlorine level holds overnight. At that point you can then let the chlorine level drift down to the "minimum/maximum" range. Consistently means testing at a minimum of in the morning and at sunset and adding chlorine to bring the levels back up to shock range. If you can do it at noon or mid afternoon also, that would be even better.

[Pamsel]

Can someone please explain why I use the least amount of chlorine when I have no CYA reading? I'm not understanding this. I mean, I have added 15 gallons and it did not clear the water. According to the Bleach calculator, I need to hadd 2.4 gallons to get to 10ppm. This just doesn't make sense to me. Also, how soon after adding the chlorox will I get an accurate reading?

[Sherra]

The abridged version is the higher your CYA reading the more chlorine you have to add to "sanitize" the pool. Which is why pucks/sticks aren't recommended on this forum because the longer you use them the more CYA is added to your pool (even though the ingredients on them don't come right out and say they have CYA in them, when they say "dichlor" or "trichlor", then they have CYA in them) and the higher you have to keep your chlorine level just to kill the normal everyday stuff that's in the pool.

Since you have no CYA, then you need less chlorine to do the job. I would suggest putting some CYA in your pool though...start out with just a little...enough to get about 20 PPM. I don't remember how many gallons your pool is, but doing reverse calculations from you saying BleachCalc said 2.5 gallons for 10 PPM, then I'm guessing 15,000 gallons. There is a Cyanuric Acid calculator in the BleachCalc, so use the amount it says when you plug in your gallons and 20 PPM. Easiest way is to put the amount it says in a sock, tie a knot in the top and hang it in front of your return jet. That way if you have to backwash during the time it's disolving (it can take a week or so to dissolve) then you're not washing it out of the filter. If you pour it in through the skimmer then you can't backwash for at least a week or else you're rinsing the undisolved granuals right out of the filter.

Depending on the size of your pool, you should be able to retest around a half hour (smaller pool) or an hour for chlorine. I'd wait a week to test for CYA.

[Pamsel]

What do you mean by pucks/sticks? Are you talking about the 3" chlorine tablets I put in the chlorinator?

Where do I buy CYA to add to the pool? I'm sorry I have so many questions, but I have so much to learn in order to do this right.

I just don't understand how 2-3 gallons of chlorox is going to kill the algae and clear my pool when 15 gallons didn't do the job. Can you help me with this?

[Sherra]

Yes, the pucks are the 3" tablets you put in your automatic chlorinator. You can get CYA at any pool store, and usually this time of year you can get it at Lowe's/Home Depot/Ace Hardware and sometimes Wal-Mart/K-Mart. It's sometimes labled at Stabilizer or Coniditioner. Look at the ingredients though...you're looking for cyanuric acid.

It's not so much that 2-3 gallons is going to kill it all by itself. It's adding that 2-3 gallons over and over again to MAINTAIN the shock level that's going to do it. Plunking in 15 gallons one time isn't going to do it...that's allowing the chlorine level to yo-yo up and down. Think of it like antibiotics...for most things you don't just take one big dose of antibiotics and what you've got is miraculously gone...you've got to continue to take the antibiotics consistently over a period of 7-10 days to make sure the "crud" is gone.

[Pamsel]

Ah, Sherra, now it's starting to make sense. Thank you!

I just checked my levels, the chlorine is at 3ppm 2 hrs after putting in 2.8 gal chlorox. My PH is still at 8.4 - has not come down at all - put in 12 oz muriataic acid 2 hrs ago.

What about the fact that I'm putting the chlorox in during the middle of the day? Doesn't the sun leach it right out of the water?

Another crisis, when I walked out to re-test just now, I discovered that my pump had stopped running. I checked the breaker and it was not tripped, but my pump in completely dead. Now what? How do I determine if I need a new pump? I've just called the pool store and they think the motor is old and probably needs a new motor. They think it is overheating or has low voltage, etc. Is this probable? I don't know the age of the pump because it was here when we bought the house 5 years ago.

Edit - Ok, the pump is running again, must have overheated. We draped a tarp over the area to try to cut down on heat from the sun...don't know how much good that will do, but it's running again.

If I don't use the pucks in the chlorinator, then how do I maintain the chlorine level all summer long? Just by using the chlorox whenever the level drops? Also, I read somewhere on the sister site that I should not use the oxygen based shock as it can cause algae growth. I've always used the pucks, the oxygen shock and algaecide weekly to maintain the pool during the summer. If not these, then how do I go it. I also have always had an algae problem in the spring and usually by August, I have yellow algae growing, so maybe it is from that oxygen shock product.

[Pamsel]

Ok, just added another 2.8 gal of chlorox and another 12 oz of muriatic acid. Am going to go mow the lawn and check levels again in an hour or two.

[Sherra]

What about the fact that I'm putting the chlorox in during the middle of the day? Doesn't the sun leach it right out of the water?

Yes, the sun will eat it up pretty quickly. Adding it in the evening is best...especially since it appears you have no CYA to help hold the chlorine in during the daylight hours. But it's still best to try to keep the levels up consistently when you're fighting in algae outbreak.

With a pH of 8.4 it may take several doses to bring it down to normal range. Your Alk is really high too...keep testing it. The acid will bring the Alk down, you need to get it down closer to 100. If the pH dips below 7.2 during your Alk/pH reduction process you'll need to bring it back up to the low 7's again. There is a thread dedicated to lowering your Alk.

[Pamsel]

Hi Sherra,

Well, I just checked my levels again. Chlorine now reading a strong 5 ppm (which, btw, is the highest my test kit goes :( and I had a heck of a time finding any kit that tested all the levels. Do I need to get another kit that will test chlorine to higher levels? Alk & PH do not appear to have dropped down at all yet. Do I just keep repeating the applications every couple of hours, after I test?

BTW, I appreciate all your help more than you can know ~ also Marie and Janet! This pool has been a nightmare every spring for 5 years! I truly don't know what I'm doing, so just follow the directions of the pool supply store, where each person gives me a different answer and nothing works until I've fought it for weeks and weeks and spent hundreds of dollars! I believe I have finally found people who truly know what to do and who can help me learn how to take control of my pool myself.

[mbar]

We all understand! It takes a while for all the chemistry to make sense - especially when you listen to pool stores. Look through the swimming pool tips on the pool solutions web site:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/10things.html
It will help explain pool chemistry better for you. Getting the test kit from this site also makes taking care of your own pool easier. You will find that once you get your water balanced, it will be very quick to check your levels and keep a clean pool. When you get the chemistry straight in your mind, you will understand how to balance your pool. Feel free to ask any questions - all you really need to keep in stock is bleach, borax, baking soda, muriatic acid, and stabilizer (for the beginning of the year) and a sequestering agent if you have any metals in your water.

[Pamsel]

Marie, I was told by the pool people that I have to use the oxygen based shock product because I have a vinyl liner. A friend of ours who has had a pool for years told me he only uses muriatic acid and liquid chlorine and never buys from a pool store, but he does not have a liner. Can I safely use muriatic acid and liquid chlorine all summer long to maintain a clear pool?
Do I not need to use the "oxygen shock", algaecide and the pucks at all?

[aylad]

The pool people are in this to make money....we're not. You don't need the oxygen shock at all. If you maintain proper chlroine levels, you won't need the algaecide, either, but some of the forum members dose with it (ONLY if it's 60% Polyquat--no other kind) when closing their pols. And no, you don't have to use the pucks at all, either. In fact, when your stabilizer levels get to the point where you're holding chlorine in the pool, the pucks are actually detrimental. With a vinyl-lined pool, you can safely and efficiently maintain a crystal clear pool using bleach, muriatic acid, Borax, and baking soda. My pool is vinyl in-ground, open year-round, and that's the recipe I use, with a little boost from the trichlor pucks.

Janet

[Pamsel]

Thank you Janet. I have learned more here in two days than I've learned the past 4 years from pool "experts". :rolleyes: I have a new container of both the pucks and the oxidizer. I'll be happy to return them and recover some of my money. Many thanks again.

HELP again!!

I tested the water first thing this morning. My chlorine level is high now - 10ppm, showing almost brownish-yellow and I smell chlorine when I walk up to the pool. I will maintain this level now until the algae is killed? So far, the water has not changed appearance at all. Also, my PH has not come down at all and my TA has gone from 310 to 380. I've put in 48ozs of muriatic acid in four doses so far, but am getting no results. Could someone please tell me if perhaps I read the PH Calcs chart wrong? I put in 14,500 gal for pool size and click calculate. The muriatic acid line reads 11.6, which I took to mean I should put in 11.6 ozs.
I've been putting in 12 ozs at a time. Am I doing something wrong?

I discovered that I have a container of PH Reducer (Sodium Bisulfate) in the garage, left from the previous owners. This means it is 5 years old. Would it do any good to use that, since the muratic acid doesn't seem to be doing the trick? Or would that be going in reverse?

Thanks again!

[waterbear]

HI PAMSEL!
mbar (Marie) PM'd me and asked me to look at this thread. Perhaps I can explain a few things.
First, your high pH.....
Your ALK is very high, this is what is making it so difficult to change your pH. Total Alklinity is just a name for the buffer system in the water that keeps the pH from bouncing up and down. If it is too high then the pH doesn't want to move and it can take a LOT of acid and airating to get it in line...Once it is you won't have the problem with pH control. You can use up the dry acid (sodium bisulfate) but it is not as effective as muriatic acid. Once it is gone it is more economical to stick to muriatic acid. High pH also makes your chlorine less effective. I am going to spare you all the chemistry :eek: but that is another reason to get your ALK and pH in range. Your chlorine will work better.

With very high ALK you will be putting in acid and nothing seems to happen. just put more in later in the day and test your pH again... You are going to find a point when the pH starts to come down...you have finally overcome the buffer in the water. At this point your pH will come down as you add acid. Calculators and dosage charts really work best when your parameters are within normal ranges. When something is as out of whack as your ALK readings they are not going to really give you correct dosage info.

ONE IMPORTANT THING. If your chlorine levels are high it will interfere with the pH test. Once again I will spare you the chemistry but you will test at 8.2 even though the pH is much lower than that!. I would not test pH right after adding chlorine or any time you have much over 10 ppm chlorine in the water! Ditto for trying to lower the ALK. Deal with one thing at a time until you get everything in line.

As far as the huge chlorine demand that your pool was showing and the algae problem, That is a bit complicated but I will try and explain it. You have been using trichlor pucks which put stabilizer in the water then you closed your pool and when you opened you had no stabilizer. Where did the stabilizer go? Bacteria ate it while the pool was closed and excreted ammonia and urea compounds. These will eat up chlorine fast until they are finally 'burned off'. It can take a LOT of chlorine to do this as you have seen.
You said that you are finally holding chlorine and can smell it. If you can smell it you need more! The smell is combined chlorine (CC)....this means that the chorine is staring to burn off the ammonia compounds in your water. Keep hitting the pool with chlorine, BRUSH, BRUSH, BRUSH, and vacumn as much out of the pool that you can. Keep cleaning your filter....As you kill the algae and get the stuff out of the water you will find your chlorine levels are holding and the strong smell goes away. Once the pool is clear let the chlorine levels drop to normal ranges and start working on your ALK and pH.

You have gotten very good advice so far from the other posters, and as you can see, it is starting to work. You have also gotten some very bad advice from the pool stores.

ONE red flag when up when you said '3 month algacide' What brand? All the ones I have seen are copper based and copper can make the water green ( but not cloudy), especially if you are shocking the pool a lot. The good news is the same sequstering agent that will help you get rid of the iron will also do the same for the copper. If you know your fill water is yellow with iron then you must keep a sequestering agent in your pool all the time. Follow the directions on the bottle to a letter for the initial treatment and for maintenance. Be sure to add a bit evey time you add new fill water also.

One last thing, to extend the range of your chlorine test you can dilute the pool water with distilled water, mix them, and then test (a shot glass makes a good measure). Here's how:
1 part pool water, 1 part distilled water, multiply the reading by 2....you can now read up to 10 ppm Total Chlorine.

1 part pool water, 1 part distilled water, multiply the reading by 2....you can now read up to 10 ppm Total Chlorine.

1 part pool water, 2 parts distilled water, multiply the reading by 3....you can now read up to 15 ppm Total Chlorine.


1 part pool water, 3 parts distilled water, multiply the reading by 4....you can now read up to 20 ppm Total Chlorine.

1 part pool water, 4 parts distilled water, multiply the reading by 5....you can now read up to 25 ppm Total Chlorine.

The test kit you have will not read FC accurately, As soon as you can try to find a kit that uses FAS-DPD to test for FC and CC. Most of us on the forum use the kit that Ben sells on the sister website www.poolsolutions.com (http://www.poolsolutions.com)
There are also good kits from Taylor Technologies and LaMotte that use this test for FC and CC but Ben's kit is definitely the best 'bang for your buck'. The kit you have right now is fine to get you started but if you really want to take control of your pool and save some money invest in a good kit. You have already found that the pool stores near you just use strips. Strips are fine for a quick check just to make sure everything is within range but are usless for adjusting anything. For example, how can you ajust your pH when you only know it is somewhere betwwen 7.2 and 7.8, which is the scale on most of the test strips I have seen!

From what I saw in your last few posts you are making real progress. Just keep at it and you WILL be swimming soon!

Hope this has been helpful and didn't confuse you!;)

[waste]

Greetings all, and welcome to the forum Pamsel, sorry I've missed out on all the fun so far, Marie pm'd me (& Evan) to take a gander at this thread. Let me take a whack at helping this 'Pamsel in distress' :)
The info you've received thus far is good, I see a couple things that haven't been adressed. :
You did the partial drain and refill, which water source did you use for the refill? Your TA increased, instead of going down, I suspect you used the community water and that it is high in TA (& possibly iron) have you used the same source to 'top off' the pool for the past 5 years? I don't want to give you more work, but I do want to help you, please have the community water and the pond water tested for the usual perameters and metals and let us know the results. (I'm thinking that the pond water will test better than the community water, and will be your prefered (though not optimal) method of filling the pool, a little pond scum can be dealt with by a bottle of bleach, high alk and metal tap water will require more costly chems and more time to correct)
I can't remember if anyone told you about the problem of cya being algae food over the winter, Ben has a riff on it somewhere (could one of you computer literate folks please link it up - who knows what would be the result if I tried) and he says it can take a ton of bleach to get the problem taken care of.
One last thing, I'm hearing thunder and don't want to fry my pc, when using the sequestering agent, place a chlorinating tab in the skimmer, you need the cya anyway, it'll help the metal come out of solution in the filter where it belongs. As for adding granular cya (stabiliser) put it in an old kneehigh or pair of pantyhose and just drop the packet in the skimmer.
Thanks for the compliment Marie in asking for my input! I hope this adds a little to the thread and lets Pamsel get swimming soon!!

[waterbear]

when using the sequestering agent, place a chlorinating tab in the skimmer, you need the cya anyway, it'll help the metal come out of solution in the filter where it belongs.
Don't do this if you have a cartridge filter. The low pH from the trichlor could cause damage to the cartridge. If you have a sand or DE filter it can help the metals precipitate out on the sand or the DE but run the pump continuously while you do this.

[Pamsel]

Thank you Waterbear and Waste . . . very helpful posts! I have been trying to correct PH, TA and CL at the same time. I guess I'll concentrate on one thing at a time. At 8:30 pm I tested (2 hrs. after my last 24 oz dose of acid) and my PH has finally come down - 7.5 now (but I'm wondering now if the reading is accurate since my chlorine is high). My TA is still at 330 and CL reading above the kit range - orange in color. I will do the dilution method in the morning when I test and am going to get Ben's kit so I can do this right. Even though the numbers are starting to improve, the appearance of the water is not yet. I have been brushing, but have not vacuumed to waste since I started this process yesterday, since I can't see the bottom, but I will vacuum anyway. Problem with that is, then I have to add more water again. . .

Waterbear, the 3-mo algicide is Pool Pride brand, and I just looked at my invoice and it is listed as Copper Algicide. I guess that answers that question. :p

Waste, I did use the community well water to refill and yes, I have used it to top off for the last 5 years. I will have my husband see about getting the water tested and see which source is best.

My heartfelt thanks to each of you for caring and helping! It is greatly appreciated. I will keep you posted.

"Pamsel the Damsel" (in distress) :)

[waterbear]

Check your pH once the chlorine level is below about 10 or 15 ppm. It should be in the ballpark if you have a decent test kit. the 'cheapo' ones are usually worse about the interferance but the better kits by Taylor, LaMotte, and the kit sold on the poolsolutions website work pretty well up to about 15 ppm chlorine. Even the cheap walmart 6 way kit works at chlorine levels up to a bit over 10 ppm but if your chlorine is really high even these kits will show a PH of 8.2 or close to it when the pH is actually lower.

[Pamsel]

I have the Wal-Mart kit. It was the only place within 30 miles that had anything that tests for CYA. I plan to concentrate on the CL level now, brush and vacuum and stop with the acid until the water clears up. I am continuing to aerate. If this is not the right plan, someone please correct me.

[Pamsel]

This mornings test results:

CL 15
PH 7.8
TA 330
Water appearance unchanged.

PH may be testing a little high since the CL level is high. I plan to leave that alone for now and concentrate on maintaining the CL at 15. Or, since the water still is not changing in appearance, do I need to get the CL up to 20?

Also, will the TA begin to come down, if I stop putting in acid and just keep aerating?

[Rangeball]

Pamsel, We had a new vinyl liner installed last year. I used bleach for 1/2 the season, had to use a few jugs of acid to straighten out the pool store recommended mess my water was in, closed the pool with bleach and opened this spring with bleach. Liner still looks brand new.

I add bleach after sundown, and pour it directly into the skimmer. This way it's diluted when returned to the pool, and get's evenly distributed.

When I added the acid, I did it slowly, pouring a small stream in front of the return stream, to make sure it was dilluted and dispersed before it ever had a chance to contact the liner.

Good luck. The light is at the end of the tunnel, and it's so much easier/cheaper staying ahead of a pool that playing catch up.

[waterbear]

This mornings test results:

CL 15
PH 7.8
TA 330
Water appearance unchanged.

PH may be testing a little high since the CL level is high. I plan to leave that alone for now and concentrate on maintaining the CL at 15. Or, since the water still is not changing in appearance, do I need to get the CL up to 20?

Also, will the TA begin to come down, if I stop putting in acid and just keep aerating? Keep hiiting it with chlorine and keep it at about 15 ppm. Like I said before, If your CYA biodegraded then there are a LOT of organics to burn off, Keep brushing and vaumning out as much as you can.
Airating is not going to have too much effect on the TA until you get the pH down to about 7.0. Reason is fairly technical. If you are interested in the reason let me know and I will post it but be aware it is chemistry nerd stuff!:eek::D

With the walmart kit your pH readings are probably fairly accurate to maybe a little high with your CL at 15 ppm so don't worry to much about the pH right now. In fact, in a post about CYA biodegredation PoolDoc (Ben) said that in cases like this a pH around 7.8 is beneficial to helping clear the water. I would guess that your pH is in the 7.6 to 7.8 range now.

[Pamsel]

Ok, will just keep working on the chlorine, brush and vacuum for now. Will post an update tomorrow. Thanks!

[Pamsel]

Well, here is my morning update:

CL 10-12 (since I am doing the dilution method it's hard to tell exactly)
PH 8.0
TA 330-350 (depends on if I stop when it first turns pink or when it's red)

Pool water still unchanged in appearance...dark green and cloudy.

At 10:00 last night I brushed the whole pool again, and added 5 gal CL

I don't seem to be making much progress.

Since I have no CYA reading, I got granulated cyanuric acid last night and put some in an old knee-high and hung it in front of my return jet this morning. It's rapidly washing it out of the sock, into the pool. I hope it's not going in too fast. Someone in an earlier post suggested I do this. Is this likely to help hold my CL level, if I get some stabilizer in there?

Am I missing something? Maybe I need to be holding my CL level at 15-20 instead of 10? I would have expected my water to be clearing by now. Also, I'm wondering how I am to keep the CL level maintained at 10 when I should only add CL in the evening. Is it not correct that to add it during the day when the sun is shining is basicly to waste it? I have been adding during the day, but it is very sunny today, so I didn't add today. My last check of CL (mid-day) was 8.0.

[waterbear]

Well, here is my morning update:

CL 10-12 (since I am doing the dilution method it's hard to tell exactly)
PH 8.0
TA 330-350 (depends on if I stop when it first turns pink or when it's red)

Test is done when it turns red. Add one more drop and if there is no more color change then don't count the last drop.



hope this helps

[Pamsel]

That does help Evan. Though, if that is the case, my TA is higher than I thought it was. I have been stopping when it first turns from green to pink.
I will retest this afternoon so I know what the correct reading is.

Still no change in my water. One thing I've noticed is that there doesn't seem to be much settling out on the bottom and sides of the pool . . . seems to be in suspension. I have in the past used a chemical from the pool store (I don't know what it was, except that the name is phlox) that pulled the stuff out of the water and dropped everything to the bottom of the pool. Then I swept it to waste. That was the only thing that cleared my water last year. I'm wondering if I need to use something like that again. The chlorine alone doesn't seem to be making a dent in it...unless I just need to add much more chlorine than I have been??

[waterbear]

The cloudiness is dead algae. The filter should take care of it but it can take some time. Floc (correct spelling) or flocculant is what you used before. Sometimes it can be helpful. Also, a clarifier can cause the dead algae to clump into larger paritcles that your filter can remover more effeciently. Be aware that using either of these types of products can introduce their own problems (uaually very small). If the pool has no more green and the filter has not taken care of the cloudiness in a few days of constant running then you might want to try either one or the other. Clarifiers are better if the water is only slightly cloudy. If there is a lot of stull suspended in the water then a floccuant is a better choice. If you have not killed all the algae yet then you just need to keep up with the chlorine and THEN worry about getting it clear. It usually clears up on it's own once the algae is gone.
Hope this helps

[Pamsel]

Thank you Evan, that does help. Everything you explain helps me learn more about what I'm doing. The water is still green, as well as cloudy so I guess I will keep working on the algae with the chlorine. So far I have put 33.6 gallons of CL in since Tuesday noon and there is very little noticable difference, but this afternoon both my husband and I think the green is a lighter shade and I can now see the bottom step clearly where before I could only see the first two steps. So, it appears that something good is finally starting to happen! :p

[rhosk]

Well, I tried to PM back to you, but of course there's a 2 private message limit ( which is really unmanageable :confused: I don't get it ).

Anyway, there's a lot going on in this thread and I don't see much talk (on your end) about your filtration (could of missed it). What kind of filter do you have? Are you able to backwash at all (and have you been backwashing constantly?). I have a DE filter and when I opened my pool, THIS was more than half the battle. When the filter was doing its job, I had to backwash about every 3-4 hours or so for the first couple of days. I like taking my filter apart once or twice in the process as well to hose it off. I just haven't seen anything that you posted saying that you're doing this with "the process". Besides all the expert advice that you're receiving to get your chemical balance in line, I would also concentrate on the filter area :)

[waterbear]

Well, I tried to PM back to you, but of course there's a 2 private message limit ( which is really unmanageable :confused: I don't get it ).



If you become a subscriber to the forum your PM message limit will increase!
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=219

[rhosk]

Hi Evan,

I purchased a testkit (qualifies for 1 year subscription?), PM'd PoolDoc twice in last month to change my status - nothing. And, needless to say, I had to delete those 2 PM's to PM again :confused:

Frustrating...

ps, sorry Pam for Off Topic posts.

[Pamsel]

I have a sand filter with new sand last summer. I've had it running 24/7 almost since I opened the pool mid-April. The only times I've had it off was when I was told to let the stuff settle out for a couple of days about 2 weeks ago. I have been backwashing 3-4 times a day since I started this process from this forum last Tuesday. Before that, I backwashed once a day.

New twist ~ I have to leave today for a funeral in Indiana. Won't be back until tomorrow night. Not a good time to leave the pool unattended. I will leave the filter running and backwash before I leave. What else to do??

Test results this morning:

CL 16
PH 8.0
TA 340
CYA 25

Looks like my CL is a little high now, although in re-reading all the posts this morning, I see that Evan's last suggestion was to keep it at 15, so maybe this is ok. Today is the first day I've had a CYA reading. Water color unchanged, but more cloudy this morning - perhaps because I brushed the pool again late last night?