Pool a disaster after vacation

[cbuchin]

While on vacation, our pool pump had a problem (leaking due to diverter seal) so the 'pet/pool sitter' shut everything down. Pure green upon our return. Tried algaecide - three different ones to date. Had water tested at dealer - showed fac .44, total .84, cc .4, ta 20, ph 7.1, ch 123, ca 75. According to there instructions I added 20 lbs of alk increaser and 20 lbs of calcium increaser. Shocked with 3 lbs of 'turbo shock'. I neglected to wait the full time between chemical additions....we are selling our haouse and had a showing coming up so I was hoping to clear things up quickly. Now the pool is a sickly whitish/light blue cloudy mess. Test strips show alk/ph/tc levels ok now altho free chlorine is still low/zero. We use aqua chem 3" chlor plus tabs (costco). Also, a lot of well water was added with the leak and I know the iron levels were high in the well. Any suggestions?

[aylad]

You need to get a good set of test results taken with a drop-based kit. Test strips are notoriously unreliable, and are not nearly accurate enough to clean up a mess. In a normal pool a CYA of 75, you need to shock the pool up to 20 ppm and hold it there by testing and adding more chlorine as necessary to maintain that 20 ppm until the algae is dead and your filter can get it all out. However, in a pool with a high metal content, taking your chlorine up that high will probably precipitate out the iron, causing staining in the pool. Normally we would recommend that you use a dose of HEDP to keep the metals in solution in the water, and a Culator pack in the skimmer to absorb and remove the metals, but that's a lengthy process. So....let me ask Pooldoc to check in on this thread and see if he can offer a useable suggestion.

In the meantime, please take a few seconds and enter your pool info in this chart--it will help us help you better, without wasting a lot of back-and-forth posting trying to get needed info about your pool.

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)


Welcome to the forum!

[cbuchin]

thanks - I've tried to enter the pool info twice now and get the message below:

PF Pool Chart (Register at PoolForum.com BEFORE you complete the chart!!)
Your response has been recorded.

The first test results in my post were from the pool store. In addition to strips, I have the two-way drop test kits, but it doesn't read up to 20ppm. I have two types of strips (one for separate hot-tub) and both sem to give same results for alk. & ph.

The algae seems to be dead since it's not green anymore, just the milky white. Could that be from adding calcium and alkalinty too close together?

[aylad]

Adding 20 lbs of either chem is enough to make a cloudy mess out of your pool, but adding 20lbs of each almost certainly did it. However, even if you don't have algae right now, you will soon if you don't raise your chlorine levels. With a CYA of 75, you should never let your chlorine levels get below 5 ppm, or you are inviting algae to get started.

Is your filter pressure rising at all? And since this is a vinyl-lined pool, just for future reference, you don't need the calcium, no matter what the pool store says. It is needed in concrete/plaster pools to keep the water from leaching the calcium out of the finish, but in a vinyl pool, it's not necessary....

[mbar]

Since you think you have metals, I would add some metal sequestering agent (HEDP) follow the directions on the bottle. Then you will have to get your chlorine levels up to shock to break down what is making the pool cloudy (probably dead algae) You should also use a skimmer sock - you can get this at a pool store or online, but you can also make one out of an old stocking. This will help to collect really fine particles. Keep your filter running 24/7, backwash frequently. Vacuum to waste if there is any sediment on the bottom. A way that you can clean up the pool faster, is to get a flocking agent. Follow the directions on the bottle, you will have to turn the filter off at least overnight so make sure you have high chlorine levels, also add some polyquat 60 algaecide. The flocking agent will combine the small particles to make them heavy and they will fall to the bottom of the pool, then you vacuum to waste. Please let me know if you have any other questions

[cbuchin]

no, the filter pressure isn't rising. I went back to the pool store yesterday for new readings: alk was still low at 46, so I added 11 pounds of baking soda last night. I also shocked it again. I had read about the calcium being irrelevant with vinyl pools and mentioned that to the pool store owner. He said there is calcium in the liner that the water will try to leach out if the water isn't kept high enough. Don't know if he's misinformed or what. He's a pretty honest guy and doesn't try to pressure you to buy his stuff. Does the testing for free if you buy from him or will charge you a small fee just to test. The reading this time showed cya0f 100! Could it really go up that much in 6 days? Pool guy thinks cloudy mess is dead algae....

[PoolDoc]

Ya gotta pick: if your pool guy is a "pretty honest guy" AND knowledgeable . . . trust him, and do what he says.

Otherwise, do what we say.

You can't do both.

The fact is, if he were both honest AND knowledgeable, he would have never told you to add both calcium and baking soda (alkalinity) to the same pool at the same time -- he wouldn't have even told you to add calcium at all!

Your pool guy is either:
honest and ignorant (very common - the pool chemical companies train them to sell chemicals, not fix pool water!)
dishonest and knowledgeable (not uncommon)
dishonest and ignorant (fairly common)

If you want us to help you, go get a test kit, and find out what's in your water. And STOP dumping baking soda and calcium in your pool. You've ALREADY got a mess that's going to be hard to clean up!

Ben

===============================


+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE, but is an ESSENTIAL tool for pools with problems. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.

+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16551) )

One caution for the 2012 season: Amazon does not stock the kits directly. So when buying at Amazon, Amato is our current preferred seller. However, they often don't list enough stock to last the whole day, so try order mid-morning. You should expect a delivered cost under $60 for the K2006A and under $95 for the K2006C. If you can't find that, wait a day.

+ Here are links to the kits we recommend (you can check local availability on the HTH kit, using the Walmart link):

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon

[mbar]

cbuchin, Your pool dealer is getting his information from the people who sell him the chemicals to put in his store. While he may not be aware of giving you any wrong information he is. You have to be careful of learning from someone who is selling you something. It is like I always say.... you can find a poll that matches your way of thinking - it is all about what questions you ask. It even goes as far as the salesmen are learning from the companies they sell for so they are believable because they are telling the truth as they know it. The thing about this forum is that the information is put here by people who have learned how chemistry affects swimming pools, and from experience. If you read through the forum you will see that we always ask for feedback on what worked and didn't work. The forum is a place that you can go to get information from regular people who have had pools and taken care of them for many years.

[cbuchin]

I tried the flok. First tried adding it as a filter aid since the filter didn't seem to be doing anything (pressure never goes up). Then, when that didn't work, got my chlorine up high and used the flok and waited two days, got it to settle to the bottom. But, when I vacuumed, all it did was stir everything up again. I waited overnight and it settled again and I vacuumed again. Once again, evrything got stirred up when I vacuum. Didn't want to leave the filter off any longer or the algae would retun. Very slight improvement. I can now see the bottom step.... Any other suggestion? Pool is a beautiful blue color, but opaque.

Also, I tried updating my profile with pool info, but can't save it....any thoughts.

I'll order a test kit today.

[mbar]

Did you vacuum to waste? You have to vacuum really slow to waste, then leave the filter off while you refil. Let it settle again and continue till clear

[cbuchin]

Yes, vacuumed to waste. I thought I was going very slowly.....just stirred it up with the slightest movement. My vac has bristles all around the edge, could that be the problem? If I try again do I need to add more floc? It's been filtering for several days now since I tried the vacuuming. Pool filter pressure doesn't go up at all. Water still blue/white and opaque.


How do you make a skimmer sock? I have lots of old stockings :)

[PoolDoc]

Eclipse sand filter? Is that the little round one? There's a fair chance you've lost quite a bit of your sand. If it's a side mount filter, it shouldn't be too hard to open the filter at the top, and check. If you are missing a lot of sand, the algae particles will go right on through the filter (and a skimmer sock won't help either!).

If you want to test your filter BEFORE opening, it, you can add some DE powder -- a couple of quarts -- via the skimmer. If the DE shoots back into the pool, your filter needs work!

[cbuchin]

hmmmm...never thought of that. How would it lose sand? But, we've had it 10 years and never added. Foxx pool manual said it would never need more sand. It is the little round one. I'll try the DE test you suggest - I get that at the pool store? I put on a stocking skimmer sock earlier today....figured it wouldn't hurt.

[cbuchin]

Ok, just looking at your Pool Solutions FAQ about Alkalinity and read:

"My calcium hardness (CH) level is also too low. Can I raise my ALK or TA level and raise my CH level at the same time? Not unless you want to have a pool that looks like it's filled with milk! When you try to add baking soda and calcium chloride (AKA calcium hardness increaser), you almost always end up with a zone where both the ALK and the CH are too HIGH, at least temporarily. And during that brief period the ALK and CH combine to firm fine particles of calcium carbonate (limestone) that cloud your pool."

As I said before, my pool dealer said to wait 6-8 hrs between the 20 lb of each additions (and each of those increments) but I was overzealous and didn't wait more than an hour or two between additions. Based on what I just read, I'm wondering if I have a "limestone cloud". If so, does that change any of your advice?

[cbuchin]

Still waiting on the test kit from Amazon. I haven't been able to get to the store for DE, but had a question on that....if the DE does blow through showing I need to replace sand, what kind of additional problems will the blown through DE cause?

Thanks a bunch.

Chantel

[Watermom]

DE blowing through may mean your filter is damaged, not just that you need to change your sand. If it does blow through, let it settle on the pool floor and then vacuum to waste to get it out of the pool.

[cbuchin]

Finally got my test kit - the Taylor K-2006 purchased at Amazon through your link.

Results:
TA: 200
PH: 7.3
CH: 260
FC: 7.4
CC: .6

Water is still cloudy. I'm going to check the sand this weekend when I have help to remove the filter cover.
Any suggestions?

[Watermom]

Your TA is too high. Directions for lowering it: Lowering Alkalinity Step-by-Step (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html)

Also, please read: Using Muriatic Acid Safely (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111-Using-Muriatic-Acid-to-Safely-Lower-Your-Pool-s-pH.html)

I wouldn't use any cal-hypo in your pool as your source of chlorine. Stick with bleach.

You didn't post a CYA reading above. Did you run that test?

[cbuchin]

Sorry - I forgot to list the CYA. It is high - about 100 - we've been using the 3" tabs from Costco all season (Aqua-chem brand).

We replaced the sand yesterday (it was 11 yr old). I used three 1.42 jugs of bleach (Great Value) to shock it last night...FC this morning was 10.5 and CC between .5 & 1.

I don't have a way to aerate....am I better off getting alk decreaser from pool store or using the posted method without aerating?

[PoolDoc]

As long as your pool is uncovered, it's aerating . . . slowly.

With CYA=100, you definitely need to follow the Best Guess table (link in my blue signature bar) and you pretty much have to have the K2006 testkit, to do it right. Kit links below.

Ben

==============================

+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE, but is an ESSENTIAL tool for pools with problems. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.

+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16551) )

One caution for the 2012 season: Amazon does not stock the kits directly. So when buying at Amazon, Amato is our current preferred seller. However, they often don't list enough stock to last the whole day, so try order mid-morning. You should expect a delivered cost under $60 for the K2006A and under $95 for the K2006C. If you can't find that, wait a day.

+ Here are links to the kits we recommend (you can check local availability on the HTH kit, using the Walmart link):

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon

[cbuchin]

I did get the K2006 through your Amazon link.

So, to reduce the alkalinty I should use the method on your site with 'slow' aeration from uncovered pool?

The new sand does seem to be slowly clearing things...hopefully if I get the Alkalinity down things will improve. I'm hoping not to have to use the floc again since I seem to be a very bad vacuumer - stirred everything back up.

Using the best guess chart I see I should keep the chlorine about 10. That's where it was this morning after adding 4.5 gallons of bleach last night. I doubt I got it up to the 25 shock level yet. That's a lot of bleach :) One gallon raises about 2ppm in 30,000 gallon pool? I know I saw the number somewhere, but can't remember now.

Thanks for your help.
Chantel

[PoolDoc]

So, to reduce the alkalinity I should use the method on your site with 'slow' aeration from uncovered pool?
Yes, just be careful to not let your pH go below 6.8 -- you MUST keep it a bit higher than the lowest point on your pH scale (6.8 on the K1000 or HTH 6-way; 7.0 on the K2006). Otherwise you risk going into the 'below' zone, as in "6.8 or below". Having your pool at 6.0 or an extended period might damage your liner; having it at 5.0 is very likely to do so.


The new sand does seem to be slowly clearing things
Good. You'll mostly have to filter the precipitated calcium carbonate out.


I'm hoping not to have to use the floc again since I seem to be a very bad vacuum-er - stirred everything back up.
It's a learned skill . . . and one I'm beginning to realize not everyone has learned.


One gallon raises about 2ppm in 30,000 gallon pool?
Your pools PF is 4.4 (see the signature data). This means 1 lb of 100% stabilizer will add 4.4 ppm CYA to your pool (if it dissolved fully!). It also means that 1 lb of dichlor -- 55% available chlorine -- will add about 2.4 ppm FC to your pool => 4.4 x 0.55.

One gallon of 6% bleach has about 1/2 lb of chlorine gas equivalent in it, so => 4.4 x 0.5 = 2.2 ppm FC