What is ProTeam SupremePLUS?

[CarlD]

I was in the pool store yesterday that I like best, because their LC always tests out at 14ppm, rather than the 12ppm it's rated at, while Branch Brook's tests at 10ppm.

And rather than their usual house brand of Sun Pools products I saw they started to carry this line.

I searched and searched and searched but could not find a list of ingredients, which I personally think should be a regulatory violation because if you accidentally ingest this stuff, how are the EMTs and ER docs going to know what they are up against?

Ok, I looked them up on the web and it's....Sodium tetraborate pentahydrate--fancy Borax. For a 20,000 gallon pool to reach 50ppm requires 67#--about 16 4# boxes of Borax, slightly short of the 22 Ben recommends...but I'm aware that Borates can be introduced via different compounds, some delivering more borates/# than others.

But....5 pounds of this on-line costs....$33.29 at one online dealer...almost $30 more than a 4# box of Borax.

I know this is a stream-of-consciousness opener to a thread but I think we just found our next pool-store scam now that the lanthanum needed for phosphate removal has dried up..some sort of export boycott by China.

[waterbear]

It's been around for years and they hold the original patents on borate. Sorry Carl, it is not the next "scam". This product has been around much longer than phosphate removers. Supreme plus is a pH neutral mix of the pentahydrate form of borax and boric acid (mostly boric acid). It is very expensive compared to buying generic chemicals but so is alkalinity increaser and pH increaser. Proteam is actually a decent line, IMHO. Their borate product is really no more expensive than the ones from Bioguard and Arch. Supreme is just the pentahydrate form of borax and must be used with an addition of acid, Supreme plus is the pH neutral mix of borax and boric acid. It is convenient to use (I have used it myself) since you just dump in the right amount and you are done. For some people that makes it worth the price.

Actually, it was the Proteam product that we used to sell (and it's claims) that prompted me to do my test on borate using 20 mule team (decahydrate form so you need more by weight for the same borate level) and acid that was documented in the China Shop several years ago to see if it really worked. It did. We carried the full Proteam line and IMHO, it is one of the better ones out there and not ovepriced when compared to some other companies products. They also do not have a lot of combo, mystery goo products (but do have several chlorine/borate products, both trichlor with borate and cal hypo with borate in addition to pure trichlor and dichlor products)

Also, Proteam does have all their MSDS on their website, unlike so many of these other companies these days! Their parent company is Haviland, who makes a lot of 'store brand' products and also has products under the Haviland brand.

[CarlD]

Thanks for all the added info, but it still seems an insane amount of money to replace Borax and Muriatic Acid, both of which are far cheaper. If local stores are starting to carry it, I suspect they WILL push it as a way to make $$$. I did find the MSDS, but I don't understand not listing ingredients.

[waterbear]

Thanks for all the added info, but it still seems an insane amount of money to replace Borax and Muriatic Acid, both of which are far cheaper. I agree, and who do you think came up with the 20 mule team and muriatic idea? Chem geek helped me work out some of the dosing but it was my idea to try it out in my own pool. The custmers that I has that were on Supreme loved it but, even with my discount, I thought the price was high.

[chem geek]

I think the better comparison for the ProTeam Supreme PLUS product is boric acid since both are closer to being pH neutral. Boric acid is more expensive than the Borax and Muriatic Acid combination, but I find it more convenient. At The Chemistry Store (http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_A_F-Boric_Acid.html), it's $1.85 per pound for a 15 pound pail. At poolgeek.com (http://www.poolgeek.com/ProTeam-Supreme-Plus-P1700.aspx), ProTeam Supreme Plus is $3.67 per pound for a 10 pound bucket. One pound of boric acid provides the same borate level as 1.54 pounds of 20 Mule Team Borax with 11.83 fluid ounces of Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid). The Borax is $0.84 per pound from several sources so 1.54 pounds is $1.30 while the acid is $7 per gallon from several sources so 11.83 fluid ounces is $0.65 so the total is $1.95. So as in this example boric acid can actually be less expensive the Borax and acid, though I didn't factor in shipping costs which can be substantial (and you generally can't find boric acid in the stores for the online price the way you can with Borax and acid).

[waterbear]

When you figure in shipping the 20 mule team and acid work out the cheapest but the boric acid is more convenient. However, the supreme plus is a mixture of borax (pentahydrate) and boric acid so it is atually pH neutral and not slightly net acidic like the straight boric acid is.

However, the bottom line is that this is not the next 'pool-store scam' (as Carl said in the first post) because, unlike phosphate removers, borate actually does something beneficial to a pool and it is not just an unnecessary waste of money that only lightens your wallet! It is more like baking soda. You can buy expensive baking soda at the pool store or pay less for it at the grocery store.

[CarlD]

When you figure in shipping the 20 mule team and acid work out the cheapest but the boric acid is more convenient. However, the supreme plus is a mixture of borax (pentahydrate) and boric acid so it is atually pH neutral and not slightly net acidic like the straight boric acid is.

However, the bottom line is that this is not the next 'pool-store scam' (as Carl said in the first post) because, unlike phosphate removers, borate actually does something beneficial to a pool and it is not just an unnecessary waste of money that only lightens your wallet! It is more like baking soda. You can buy expensive baking soda at the pool store or pay less for it at the grocery store.

Well, that's my point. Baking soda and washing soda are FAR more expensive at the pool store and they WILL try to tell you it's "better". I've had guys at pool stores tell me bleach is a problem because it adds TDS, when they are selling LC, even at 6%.

OK, so it's better than Nature2 and other silver/copper erosion systems. It's still a way to get unsuspecting pool owners to pay FAR more for a common chemical than they have to, and I have a problem with that.

Carl

Maybe this should go to the China Shop?

[waterbear]

Well, that's my point. Baking soda and washing soda are FAR more expensive at the pool store and they WILL try to tell you it's "better". I've had guys at pool stores tell me bleach is a problem because it adds TDS, when they are selling LC, even at 6%.

Well, yeah. That's what pool stores tend to do. Why single out one product that they do it to (Supreme). It's no different than how they market alkalinity increaser, pH increaser, and liquid shock (although their price on liquid shock can often be better than buying bleach).


OK, so it's better than Nature2 and other silver/copper erosion systems. It's still a way to get unsuspecting pool owners to pay FAR more for a common chemical than they have to, and I have a problem with that.


No quite following you here. What does borate have to do with Nature2 or other copper/silver systems at all? Proteam Supreme and other borate products do not claim to be alternative sanitizers that allow reduced chlorine levels. Your problem is with pool stores and how they market common chemicals, not with borate.
I agree that this should be moved to the china shop but the title should be changed to how pools stores charge a lot of money for common household chemicals since that is the real issue you seem to be complaining about.
It's really old news.