View Full Version : Brown stains spreading
We have a 22k gallon IG gunite pool with a mineral springs SWC. This is the 2nd year of operation. We opened 2 weeks ago and everything went well, except some of the stains we accumulated over the winter didn't go away. I assumed they were from leaves b/c they were mostly on the steps and love seat, but now there is some discoloration to the bottom and the face of the steps. The darkest spots are brown and are about the size of a one dollar coin, but the spreading is more of a light brown coating spreading around the stains.
I tried Ph down crystals on one or two, figuring that was the same as concentrated muriatic acid, but it didn't work. I also tried directly placing a little shock on the spot and it seemed to lighted over a few days but didn't work entirely and I don't need/want that much chlorine in the pool all the time.
This a.m. I tried crushed Vitamin C tablets directly on the stains and it worked, so based on what I've read here it would seem to be a metal problem. (not sure where the metal would have come from b/c I had no probs last year and the fill water this year was 95% rain/snow from the winter and 5% hose water, which is what I used for about 20% of the water last year, but how it got here isn't really the issue.
Readings are:
FC = 12
TC = 12 (is that possible/correct? I took it twice so I think it is accurate, but that doesn't seem good)
Ph 7.2
Alk = 100 (earlier this week I added 4 lbs baking soda b/c alk had been too low)
CYA = 70
Temp = 72
I added 200 lbs salt last week as the mineral reading on the SWC was 1300. That reading is now at 3000, but I've turned it off due to the high clorine rating.
So, what do I do about the stains, and am I correct that the chlorine it way too high?
Thanks
Your chlorine is not too high. According to the "best guess chart" that we use, with the cya 70, your chlorine at 12ppm is good, a little high but as you can see it doesn't even come near shock level. You can run your pool at about 8ppms.
Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm
All of your numbers seem to be in range, but you didn't post your calcium levels.
As for the stains, I would try putting in a sequestering agent first - something like sequasol, or jack's magic, or metal free. Put in enough per the directions on the bottle. A little extra won't hurt, but not enough will keep some metals free to precipitate out of the water. Keeping your ph low, 7.2 is ok, but no higher. Let your pump run 24/7 for a while and see if the stains get any lighter. If they don't let me know. Then you can do a regular stain treatment. As for where did the metals come from? I don't know, but since they are in there you need something like the sequestering agent to keep them in suspension.
gregugadawg
05-29-2006, 12:20 AM
take a water sample to your local pool store and tell them you need stain remover. Be sure you use a metal remover when you add the stain remover as well. This is going to work since the vitamin c worked on the stains. You will however need to lower the chlorine level to less than 1 before treating the stains.
waterbear
05-29-2006, 08:43 AM
I would say Marie is right on the money. She is pretty much the expert on stain treatment around here:D
Brown stains are usually caused by iron. Might be intersting to get your water checked but then again, once the stain has formed the metal is no longer IN the water, unless it is a recurring problem such as your fill water.
I added a Metal, Stain and Scale Out product, have run the pump and brushed the stains but there hasn't been a change in their appearance. During this period, the PH rose so I treated with muriatic acid to bring back down. Any suggestions on what to do next?
You will probably have to do a stain treatment. You are using a product that is probably a sequestering agent - it will bind with the metals that are suspended in the water, but if the stains are embedded, they will not lift off with just the sequesterant. You can get ascorbic acid which is vitamin C, or there are other products that use oxcylic acid? I am not sure if that is the right spelling. I always use the ascorbic as it is the most mild. Here is a link to buying it cheaper than the regular pool products.
http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Ascorbic_Acid.htm
If you chose to do this treatment, I can give you directions on how to use it.
blk133
06-12-2006, 02:58 PM
How much of Vitamin C would one need for a 35000 G. in-ground fiberglass pool?
I am not even sure that I have a metal stain, just some kind of stain is there on the floor and on walls I start to see a patern of how they applied a paint with a roller.
Thanks,
B.
tmmort
06-12-2006, 05:57 PM
...
If you keep the pH between 7.2 - 7.4 (it keeps the metals in solution) you should not have too many stain problems. Keep the REAL alkalinity between 90 and 100, this to helps keep the metals from falling out of solution, using your CYA number to adjust this. Example a CYA of 60 X ph 7.4 adjustment of .33 gives a reading of 19.8. So your alkalinity should read 120 on your test kit to get a real alkalinity of 100.2. At a CYA of 40 the adjustment is 40 X .33 or 13.2 so your reading should be around 110 to get a real count of 96.8.
...
I've never heard of this relationship between CYA/pH/TA. Can you elaborate and/or post link that explains this? Thanks!
smallpooldad
06-12-2006, 05:59 PM
Firstly if you do not have a pool sweeper with brushes you will need to do a lot of brushing while all this is going on. The fact that your pool is at 72 F is beneficial to the chlorine as it is stronger at lower temperatures.
One reason that you may be getting stains is your REAL alkalinity could be too low for a vinyl pool, if you are not adjusting it, please see below.
You can buy vitamin C POWDER from your local health store DO NOT GET the crystals they will not work as they are non-acidic.
You will need 1 to 1 1/2 lbs per 10,000 gals. Keep the pH low, say 7.0 and sprinkle it around the wall. I did mine at a pH of 6.0 in a gunite pool and it worked very well but a number of persons on this website think that 6.0 is far too low, although ascorbic acid has a pH 6.0; at 7.0 I had limited success.
VERY VERY important drop the chlorine to 0, yes zero, before putting the the vitamin c (ascorbic acid) into the pool, or all the the acid will do is eat up the chlorine and not do the work on the stain. You can buy a chlorine reducing chemical from your local pool store. Sprinkle the powder around the walls or near the stains.
If you are worried about an algae bloom put in one quart of Algaeside 60, not 50, 40 or 30 per 10,000 gals. Then immediately add 3 quarts per 10,000 gals of metal or stain treat (not stain removal) to catch the metal stain in solution.
In regards to the filter adding DE helped catch more particles, then again this may be more in the mind than in reality. With a 300 lb sand filter (9,000 gal pool) add enough DE, through the skimmer box, to raise the pressure by 1, this is about 3 cups, add one cup at a time and wait 15 to 20 minutes. Once you have started the ascorbic acid process you may notice, if you have a sand or small filter, the pressure rising dramatically and your filter slowing down. I back washed for 1 minute only after each of the first two 12 hour periods as the filter became blocked.
It is best to first backwash and then COMPLETELY DRAIN the pool after having run the pump for 48 hours non-stop. If you do not the metal will eventually fall out of solution and cause the stains to reappear via deposit.
Refill and bring the calcium hardness up to at least 200 - 250 for gunite, 100 to 150 for vinyl. I think the higher number works better with stain problems although I am not sure why. Some members have suggested that calcium in the filter helps get the metals deposited in the filter and then washed out in the backwash.
Once you refill it is a good idea to shock your pool first with liquid bleach 20 ppm (Ultra Bleach from Walmart is cheap) at a low pH of 7.2 then after 48 hours bring your pool back into balance and FINALLY add 1 quart per 10,000 gals metal out to keep any metal introduced into pool with the new water in solution. Do this once a month, or as Mbar suggests a little say 3-4oz if the stains reappear.
DO NOT SHOCK if you are not refilling the pool. However if you do not drain and refill you will have the ascorbic acid in solution which will eat the chlorine in large doses. It will take lots and lots of chlorine before you can maintain a stable level. This may take 2-5 days of constantly adding chlorine, a real pain.
If you keep the pH between 7.2 - 7.4 (it keeps the metals in solution) you should not have too many stain problems. Keep the REAL alkalinity between 90 and 100 for gunite, 100 to 120 for vinyl, this also helps keep the metals from falling out of solution, using your CYA number to adjust this. Example a CYA of 70 X ph 7.4 adjustment of .30 gives a reading of 21.0. So your alkalinity should read 120 to get a real alkalinity of 99.0. At a CYA of 40 the adjustment is 40 X .30 or 12.0 so your reading should be around 110 to get a real count of 98.0.
ph CyF adjustment
6.5 0.11
7.0 0.22
7.2 0.26
7.4 0.30
7.6 0.33
7.8 0.35
8.0 0.36
8.5 0.38
If your CYA is 70 then you should keep the Total Chlorine between 7-8. Remember it takes 3-5 days for CYA reading to measure correctly as it dissolves very slowly, so do not add more than is necessary.
Do not shock the pool after you are in balance for at least 2 weeks or it may go cloudy. Add Algaecide 60 if you like.
I learnt most of this from Mbar so you have her to thank.
Finally, two finallys, first if you have blackish looking stain streaks these are normally caused by tannin from leaves, to dissolve these you would need to keep the chlorine up at around 30 ppm for 48 to 72 hours. Carefully monitor your pH level to 7.2 and Your REAL alkalinity to 90-100 for gunite, 100 to 120 for vinyl. Running your pump the entire time. Second, you may still need to do the the muriatic clean process but this is more difficult and should only be used as a last resort, I think doing the ascorbic acid process at a pH of 6.0 is better and less dangerous than putting a muriatic mix of say 1 part acid to 3 or 4 parts water directly onto the wall but once again some members may disagree and I have no experience of vinyl pools.
Aloha and good luck.
smallpooldad
06-12-2006, 08:48 PM
Cyanuric Acid Correction To Total Alkalinity.
The following is taken from Taylor's "Pool and Spa Water Chemistry" (rev 9/94).
"Total alkalinity is a measurement of both carbonate alkalinity and cyanurate alkalinity present in a sample. Since water balance calculations only use the carbonate alkalinity portion, a a correction (which varies with pH) should be applied to compensate for the cyanurate portion."
They further state: "Note: While Taylor Technologies recommends using the correction, some industry professionals remain skeptical and question its value."
It works for me I seem to have far less variation on a daily/weekly basis if I use the adjustment.
Smallpooldad is right with all of his information, and has dealt with stains.
On the other hand, if you don't want to do all that he has gone through, or don't have as much staining as he did, there is a way to do it without draining and refilling.
You will need about a half to one pound of ascorbic acid per 10,000 gal. I like to go lighter on it and see if all the stain goes away with as little as possible, because as smallpooldad says the ascorbic acid will eat chlorine up really fast.
You need to get your chlorine as close to 0 as you can (there are products that do this). You can buy the ascorbic acid from the internet - I posted two links above. You don't need food grade, I checked. I have used the ascorbic acid from the first link, but the second link sells it in smaller quantities.
Put the filter on circulate.
Use a cup and go around the perimeter of the pool and drop it down the sides as you go.
Let the ascorbic acid circulate for 1/2 hour. You will be amazed how the stain just disappears before your eyes.
If the stain is not all gone, leave the filter in circulate and add more ascorbic acid close to where you still see stain. Leave it in circulate until all of the stain is gone. (add more ascorbic acid if it circulates for 1/2 hour and there is still stain)
When the stain is gone, add enough sequestering agent for the volume of your pool - more is better than not enough.
Put the filter back on filter and leave it on 24/7.
The ascorbic acid will bring your ph down, after 24 hours you can start to bring up your ph - be prepared it will take a lot of Borax, but make sure you test in between, because you don't want to go any higher than 7.2. After 48 hours you can start to bring up your chlorine. You want to do this slowly. It will take a lot of chlorine - I prefer to use bleach only at this time, and try to take it up to your minimum chlorine for your cya according to the "best guess chart" Do not shock! Do not shock for at least 2 weeks! Make sure you keep your ph low for (7.2) for a week or two - it won't be hard becuase the ascorbic acid will help it stay low. Once your chlorine starts to hold, it means that you have used up the ascorbic acid in the water and it will be easy to rebalance the pool back to your regular perameters.
If you add fill water, add through your skimmer. If you have a DE or sand filter you can put a chlorine puck in your skimmer 48 hours after the ascorbic acid treatment.
Always keep the minimum amount of sequestering agent in the water. If you see stain start to come back, drop your ph back down to 7.2 and add a heavy dose of sequestering agent - it will probably lift the stain off without doing another ascorbic acid treatment
Your water may cloud when you do the initial treatment.
smallpooldad
06-12-2006, 09:09 PM
If you do eventually go the muriatic acid wash route and I hope not the following advice given to me by "A Good Pool Maintenance Person" might help avoid a serious problem.
He stated that as the acid is very strong it is a good idea to put soda ash or borax in the bottom part of the pool with water to neutralize it. It could possibly burn out the bottom of your pool with such a concentration of acid. Not a bad idea. Personally I have never tried this but this person stated they had seen pools cleaned this way and the gunite was nearly completely eaten away - scary.
Short story on Borax, 16 years ago I visited the mine which if I remember correctly is in or around Death Valley, it is huge, four story dump trucks look like little toys even the massive dynamiting explosions just appear as puffs of smoke. Worth visiting unless the following happens. We went in July and the temperature was around 115 F. We rode in a bus, upon leaving the mine to return to LA the air-conditioning in the bus broke down, some of the persons from the local Rotary Club were older than 75 and some near 90, they were not in good shape. So most of the afternoon and evening were spent at a hospital that was not too close. So do not go there unless you have A1 air-conditioning, are travelling in Mariah Carey's personal road bus, or have a stretch limo with a refrigerated pool in the back.
Any thoughts on the soda ash borax idea from other members would be helpful.
And finally remember "You can take the iron out the walls but you will never take the iron out of the water." Someone, I think it was my mother, said something like that about a cute girlfriend I had when I was young. It took me 40 years to find out she was right but now all I have to worry about is iron.
waterbear
06-12-2006, 10:19 PM
You can get ascorbic acid which is vitamin C, or there are other products that use oxcylic acid? I am not sure if that is the right spelling.
Marie, very close...oxalic acid is the correct spelling. And ascorbic acid is less toxic so it is my first choice also.
It has taken me a while to get back to this as I've been travelling, had to order the acid, etc. but I'm now ready to do the acid treatment. Good news is the stains haven't gotten worse. I have a couple of questions before I start.
First, I assume the metal, stain and scale out product I tried first is a stain remover, not a sequestering agent. Is that correct? If so, do I need to get jack's magic or sequasol as was descrbed earlier in this thread? If not, is what I added still active in the water or would I need to add more. (BTW, I have backwashed since I added it).
Second, the chlorine is low enough for the treatment but I have a SWG. Should I turn it completely off for the first 48 hours then back on (how high?)
Third, how long do you have to wait before you can swim?
Thanks.
The stain and scale remover is a sequesterant. Check on the bottle and make sure you put enough in the water, not enough is not good, too much won't hurt anything. You may want to add another bottle of it when you do the treatment. I would turn the swg off for the 48 hours, then put it back on low. You want to bring your chlorine up slowly after all the stain is gone. I swam in my pool after 24 hours. I'm still alive, ha, ha. It should be fine to swim in the next day. Feel free to ask any other questions you may have, good luck!
grangerhj
06-24-2006, 10:23 AM
If you swam the next day- what was your chlorine level? Had you lowered to 0 prior to adding the ascorbic acid? How soon afterward do you begin adding chlorine?
I have a brown stain all over pool- I use well water to fill my pool that has high iron count. I have used both Stain Out and Metal Out. The stain goes away but is back with in a week. Any suggestions?
I am battling a high CYA (135) and am using Bleach about 174 ounces/day to maintain chlorine level between 7-10ppm Water is crystal clear.
The chlorine was at 0 when I swam, but I must say I only jumped in to cool myself off - didn't do any real swimming. You can always put polyquat in the water if you are afraid of an algae bloom while doing a stain treatment. The only thing I can think of is to put more sequesterant in than the bottle says. Keep your ph at the low level - 7.2. The green tint to the water may be that the walls of the pool are stained slightly yellow, which yellow and blue can make the water appear green. The only way to get rid of the stain that doesn't come off with the sequeserant is to do a stain treatment with ascorbic acid or oxillac acid. With a cya of 135, you must keep your chlorine between 8ppms and 15ppms. Your shock level will be 25ppms. Don't shock your pool with high ph - high ph with high chlorine will precipitate the metals out of the water onto the surface of the pool, unless you have enough sequeserant to bind to all the metal that is in the water.
TheNewPoolGuy
06-25-2006, 10:23 PM
You will probably have to do a stain treatment. You are using a product that is probably a sequestering agent - it will bind with the metals that are suspended in the water, but if the stains are embedded, they will not lift off with just the sequesterant. You can get ascorbic acid which is vitamin C, or there are other products that use oxcylic acid? I am not sure if that is the right spelling. I always use the ascorbic as it is the most mild. Here is a link to buying it cheaper than the regular pool products.
http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=%%cart_id%%&product=Vitamins&user4=Ascorbic%20Acid
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Ascorbic_Acid.htm
If you chose to do this treatment, I can give you directions on how to use it.
Marie:
I have a similar problem. I have an AG Doughboy 12' X 20' pool, 8,200 gallons. I live 15 miles West of New Orleans. I have been fighting staining problems since Hurricane Katrina. My readings are:
FC - 3.0
TC - 3.0
PH - 7.5
CH - 160
Alk - 130
CYA - 50
I have brown stains that are on the bottom of the liner. I have tried a product called Pool Stain Treat by United Chemicals. The active ingredient is Oxalic Acid. I was told to add one quart of EZ-CHLOR, Metal Magnet. I was told to shut down the pump long enough to have the water completely idle. Mix 1 pound Pool Stain Treat to 4 gallons water, mix well. Then, get a 16 ounce cup and gently pour the mixture into the pool over where the stains are. The mixture is heavier than the pool water, and you can see it going to the bottom. When it hits the stain, most of the stain is removed and the water gets cloudy. You continue this process until all the mixture is gone. By the time you finish, the pool is cloudy and you will have to start the pump and shock pool. I used 2 lbs of the Pool Stain Treat and it worked well. I still have some stains and I am waiting for the ascorbic acid I ordered. I am told that you are suppose to use the same process with the ascorbic acid. I hope thjis helps. If you have any other ideas to help me reomove the rest of my stains, give another post. I am ordering the new kit, PS234 and hoping to run all my own samples.
When I used the ascorbic acid I didn't dilute it in water. I just poured the ascorbic acid down the walls of the pool, concentrate more where you see stain. You will probably need less than a pound. You can shut the filter off, or leave it on - the most important thing is to get a sequestering agent in the water, so that when the stain lifts off the surface of the pool and goes into solution, the sequesterant will hold it in suspension. After an ascorbic acid treatment you DO NOT shock your pool for 2 weeks.
1. Pour ascorbic acid down the sides of pool
2. Let water circulate for 1/2 hour
3. Pour in enough sequestering agent for the gal size of your pool (I would use a bottle of something like metal free, sequasol, or Jacks Magic.
4. Let the filter run 24/7
5. The next day check ph, add borax to take it back up to 7. to 7.2 (no higher)
6. After 48 hours start to raise chlorine slowly. It will be hard to get the water to hold chlorine because the chlorine will eat up the ascorbic acid that is in the water.
Your alkalinity is a little high, but the ascorbic acid may take it down. Make sure you check it also. If it is too low, you can add baking soda to bring your ph and alk up. Add small amounts and check at 2 hour intervals. With a cya of 50, you can take your chlorine up to 6, but not higher for 2 weeks. If you see stain start to reappear, then take your ph back down to 7 and add more sequesterant. Keep me informed, and feel free to ask any questions you may have.
The stain treatment worked like a charm, but I have a follow up question.
I added the acid (1.5 lbs for a 22k pool) and sequestering agent on Sunday afternoon and let the filter run as described. I checked the ph last night (Monday) and it was steady at 7.2. I'm in Northern Virginia and it has been raining a couple of inches a day for a few few days so I'm not sure if the rain water helped raise the ph, but I did not have to add anything to raise it.
I checked the pool again this morning. The ph remained at 7.2 and the the chlorine was 0 (as expected), but the water is very cloudy and the pump pressure is very high (baseline is around 20 but pump is currently at 35). I couldn't backwash before work this a.m. and didn't want to run the pump all day with the pressure that high so I turned the pump off until I can backwash today after work. Is there anything about the stain treatment and sequestering agent that would affect the pressure in the filter that much? Also, with the cloudiness of the water, am I safe to re-start my SWG and to start raising the chorline level?
Yes, you can start your swg. The filter pressure is probably going up to filter out what the chlorine is breaking down - the citric acid. You can start to raise the chlorine level - keep your ph no higher than 7.2, and watch for stains - if you start to see them, bring your ph back down to 7 and add more sequestering agent. I usually try to raise my chlorine by 1 ppm at a time till I get it to where it needs to be according to cya. You will find it hard to keep chlorine in the pool till all the cloudiness is gone.
Hopefully this is my final set of questions. The stains remain gone, but the water is cloudy. I've been running the pool 24 hours/day with the SWG running. I had a separate issue this week with pressure rising quickly in the pump so I had to backwash a couuple of times and clean the filter manually. I got that cleaned yesterday (Thurs) a.m., but ran w/o DE in the filter until last night b/c I ran out. Also yesterday a.m. I turned the SWG up b/c I wasn't getting any chlorine readings. I ran it at 100 all day, then checked again after about 10 hours but the chlorine still barely registered. I put the control on "boost" overnight, and the level raised slightly. I tested the water this a.m and got the following:
FC = .5
TC = 2
ph = 7.2 (I did add a little acid last night as it had crept up to just above 7.4)
alk = 70
cal = 180
cya = 27
temp = 80
We're having a small cookout tomorrow (6 kids, 4 adults) and a bigger party on Tuesday (6 kids, 9 adults) and I'd like to have the water cleared up ASAP. Do I just need to keep running the pump with the SWG on "boost" to raise the chlorine to clear the water? Can/should I add a chlorine stick in the skimmer to accelerate the process? Also, are CYA and Alk too low?
Yes, your water is still cloudy because there are things in the water that the chlorine is busy breaking down, that's why your pool is using up the chlorine so fast. You need more chorine. Take your chlorine up to about 5ppms. You can do this by adding bleach, and a puck in the skimmer. I also read on this site that you can add chlorine manually so that your swg doesn't have to work as hard to keep up with the bleach demand at times like these. Your alk is just a tad low - I wouldn't do anything with this, because I think it will rise on it's own - it gets low from the stain treatment. Just keep your eye out for stains starting when you raise your chlorine - if you see them add more sequesterant.
I guess that wasn't my final set of questions. I added the stick and the chlorine started to come back, but I woke up this a.m. to light green water. I tested for chlorine and it was basically zero. We're going to be gone from 7 a.m until 1 pm and I didn't have any bleach, so I added shock to the pool to try to raise the chlorine level quickly. Should I add polyquat, or test and add bleach when I get home or ????? Ideally, we're having people over at 4 today so I want to clear this up of that is even possible.
Add the polyquat, and get your chlorine to hold - you will have to use a lot of chlorine to get it to break down all of the ascorbic acid that is left in the water and have it filter out. If you are starting on an algae bloom, you will have to shock the pool to kill the algae. Make sure you take your ph down to 7, add more sequesterant and take your water up to shock level according to the best guess chart. With the extra sequesterant and the low ph, hopefully you won't get any stains back, but shock it now so that you don't get an all out algae bloom. After doing the stain treatment it is very important to keep after the chlorine so that it stays consistant - because it is hard to keep enough in the water to break down the ascorbic acid.
gerri
07-07-2006, 12:31 AM
Marie,
Is there any way you could do a sticky thread with step by step using asorbic acid to remove stains?
I have another question.. after the asorbic acid treatment I will start adding the chlorine back in.. you have said gradually - can you elaborate on that just a little bit?
How many gallons of bleach will it take and over what time period will I add the bleach?
I'm still waiting for my Asorbic Acid to arrive. I just want to get prepared and I don't want to add too much bleach too quickly and have the stains come right back.
My pool is 8500g IG fiberglass.
Thanks for all of your help!
Gerri
Here is the ascorbic treatment:
You will need about a half to one pound of ascorbic acid per 10,000 gal. I like to go lighter on it and see if all the
Put the filter on circulate.
Use a cup and go around the perimeter of the pool and drop it down the sides as you go.
Let the ascorbic acid circulate for 1/2 hour. You will be amazed how the stain just disappears before your eyes.
If the stain is not all gone, leave the filter in circulate and add more ascorbic acid close to where you still see stain. Leave it in circulate until all of the stain is gone. (add more ascorbic acid if it circulates for 1/2 hour and there is still stain)
When the stain is gone, add enough sequestering agent for the volume of your pool - more is better than not enough.
Put the filter back on filter and leave it on 24/7.
The ascorbic acid will bring your ph down, after 24 hours you can start to bring up your ph and alkalinity - use baking soda first, it will raise both ph and alk. Make sure you test in between, because you don't wantyour ph to go any higher than 7.2. If your alkalinity is in range, and you still need to raise your ph, use Borax to take it up to no higher than 7.2. After 48 hours you can start to bring up your chlorine. You want to do this slowly. It will take a lot of chlorine - I prefer to use bleach only at this time, and try to take it up to your minimum chlorine for your cya according to the "best guess chart" Do not shock! Do not shock for at least 2 weeks! Make sure you keep your ph low for (7.2) for a week or two - it won't be hard because the ascorbic acid will help it stay low. Once your chlorine starts to hold, it means that you have used up the ascorbic acid in the water and it will be easy to rebalance the pool back to your regular parameters.
Since your pool is 8500 gals, I would add 2 cups of bleach at a time. You can start to do this after 2 days. If you are in a hot climate, you may want to add some polyquat before the treatment to keep algae at bay. You will have to test often, because the bleach will get used up breaking down the ascorbic acid. Once you start to raise the chlorine level, keep it consistant - don't let it yo yo down. Take your chlorine up to the lower level of your cya "best guess chart". Let me know if you have any other questions - good luck!
gerri
07-07-2006, 10:01 AM
Thanks Marie! :D
I am sure I will be freaking out and have other questions as I do this. I'm really scared of the cloudy water because I have so much staining.
I really appreciate your help!
Gerri
Feel free to ask any questions you have. Let me know if the stains don't come off right away with the ascorbic acid, because there is more you can do if they don't. Just keep the pump on cirulate and let me know. Most of the time the ascorbic acid is enough - sometimes the stains are more embedded and need a little help, so don't worry if they don't come right off. Just be sure to add enough sequestering agent, and don't worry if the water gets cloudy - it will clear up.
gerri
07-07-2006, 11:31 AM
Thanks!
I just found out that my Asorbic Acid will be here Tuesday. I guess since it is coming from Arizona it takes a week to get to SC and we had the holiday so that slowed it by a day too. :( Next time I will order from the chemisty store, it seems to be in SC. Too bad I didn't notice that when ordering! Do you remember how much they charge for shipping?
gerri
07-07-2006, 11:35 AM
One more question for now (I'm sorry if I'm driving you crazy). After the treatment, and in general.. how often do you add more sequestering agent?
gerri
07-11-2006, 10:04 PM
I added half a pound of Ascorbic Acid to my pool this afternoon. Then about an hour later since the stains were still there another half pound. Now I'm out of AA but the stains are lighter but streaky and still there.
Marie, you mentioned that there was more that could be done. I think I'm at that point now. Can you help?
You can use muriatic acid, along with the stain treatment- which will be a much harder project. What is your ph now? How much sequestering agent did you put in? Before you start with the acid, I would let the water keep circulating. Make sure you have your ph down to 7 or 7.2 - you can lower it with muriatic acid, put enough sequestering agent in for a full dose according to the back of the bottle. I always add the whole quart for 10,000 gal. So you should have added the whole quart just to be safe. Let me know if this takes the stains off. If not, I will give you directions for the treatment with the muriatic acid, but you will need more ascorbic acid as well.
gerri
07-12-2006, 12:07 AM
I am going out to test the Ph now. If it is higher than 7 I will bring it down.
When I added water yesterday I added a quart of sequestering agent. Then today after the ascorbic I added another quart.
I will post again tomorrow to let you and waterbear know what's happening and how the stains look. Since it's dark and the pool light doesn't work I can't really tell about the stain situation right now.
I have the pump on recirculate. Should i leave it on all night?
I'm going to order more AA in the morning. Whether I need it this time or not I'm sure I will need it at some point.
Thanks for your help!
gerri
07-12-2006, 12:15 AM
With my drops kit my Ph looks to be at 6.8 right now. :confused: What should I do? Can I add some borax tomorrow?
No, just leave it there, it won't hurt overnight, and it will help to get rid of the stains. You can take your ph up tomorrow using borax if the stains are gone. Let me know.
gerri
07-12-2006, 12:43 AM
Thanks for all of yoru help. I will post tomorrow as to the condition of the stains and go from there. I placed an order from the chemistry store for 2# of ascorbic acid. They are a 2 hour drive from here and I would go pick it up if I had the time but it's just impossible since I am the single mom of an almost 2 year old. At any rate it shouldn't take long for it to get here since they are so close. If I still have stains we can try again. I'm determined to have a sparkling pool!!!!
You will, you may have a sparkling pool today - let me know - sometimes it takes the low ph to take off the remaining stain. Keep the filter running.
gerri
07-12-2006, 02:26 PM
Today I have pretty clear water still but some staining remains. It is a whole lot lighter and almost something I could live with, but still a little bit stained and a little streaky. How should I proceed?
Thanks,
Gerri
Hi gerri, I would wait for your order of the ascorbic acid - keep your ph low, and when the ascorbic acid comes add some where you see the stains - let the water circulate for a couple of hours and see if it all come off - make sure there is enough of the sequestering agent in the water. You shouldn't need a lot of the ascorbic acid - but keep adding some with the pump in circulate until all of the stains are gone. Then you will have to reabalance the water again. Keep me informed - you are getting there.
gerri
07-12-2006, 10:35 PM
Thank you so much for helping me. The pool guy is no help at all and if I had not found this forum I would have just been reduced to living with the stains, which really ruins it for me. It's terrible for everything to look dirty when the water is actually very very clean.
Ok, hopefully tomorrow my AA will come IF the chemisty store are quick shippers. So it won't hurt keeping my Ph low for this long?
No, not if it is 6.8 - 7 is neutral - if it bothers you, then you can take it up to 7, by adding a little borax. You will get your pool nice and stain free - Just make sure you keep your ph on the low side when you start to balance the water after the stains are gone. High ph along with high chlorine is what makes the metals fall out of the water, so I always keep the ph low when raising the clorine, if I see some stain start to come back, then I add some more sequestering agent. Keep me informed on your progress.
gerri
07-12-2006, 11:03 PM
I will definitely let you know how it all goes. And again, thank you VERY much. I hope my AA comes tomorrow.