At My Wits End

[Jeannie]

Okay.. I have a 21' Round ABG. It's 5' deep.

It was gorgeous and blue and crystal clear.

Now it's cloudy and lightly green for weeks. And I just can't figure it out.. I want to cry.

I've raised my chlorine to shock levels and held it there for days.. and still green. I've let the filter run 24/7... but no help. I am just ready to tear my hair out.

This morning (Using the full Taylor Test Kit):

FC: 10
TA: 110
PH: 7.4

I did test for combined chlorine.. but it the sample didn't turn color again.. so I guess there is no CC?

WHAT am I doing wrong? Why is my pool this color??

I should say.. there is no slime on the floors or wall so I'm not sure where the color is coming from. There was some residue on the bottom of the pool but we vacuumed it.

I DO think my pool filter is probably a little big.. but there's nothing I can do about that. The salesperson insisted it was the right size for our pool.. and we didn't know any better. (it's a big sand filter.. we use about 150 lbs of sand to get it filled to the right level.. and a 1.5 HP motor). I have no option to change out either because we just don't have the money.

[aylad]

What is your CYA level?

[Watermom]

Are you sure about your pool being 5 feet deep? I have never seen any 21' AG pool with 60+" walls.

[Jeannie]

Are you sure about your pool being 5 feet deep? I have never seen any 21' AG pool with 60+" walls.

Yes.. the walls are 5' tall. Obviously the water is not filled to 60" but that's how tall the side walls are.

My CYA level is reading about 40.

=============================

Actually my husband says he thinks it's 54" .. my mistake!

[aylad]

With a CYA of 40, your shock level is 15 ppm--have you consistently kept it above 15 for the time you've specified, or did you let the chlorine levels yo-yo up and down? If the chlorine level isn't consistenly kept above that 15 ppm, then you're spinning your wheels--and wasting your time. If it's been consistently above the 15 ppm, and is still green, then I would either double-check your CYA levels, or check with your water company to make sure there are no metals in the water.

[Watermom]

Actually my husband says he thinks it's 54" .. my mistake!

That sounds more like it! ;)

[Jeannie]

With a CYA of 40, your shock level is 15 ppm--have you consistently kept it above 15 for the time you've specified, or did you let the chlorine levels yo-yo up and down? If the chlorine level isn't consistenly kept above that 15 ppm, then you're spinning your wheels--and wasting your time. If it's been consistently above the 15 ppm, and is still green, then I would either double-check your CYA levels, or check with your water company to make sure there are no metals in the water.

I'm betting that I'm spinning my wheels. I need help with this because it's just not registering for some reason. How long should my Chlorine stay above 15ppm? Until it's clear? I just keep dumping in bleach? Last night my FC measured at 10ppm. I poured in a gallon of bleach at 8pm. As of 5am this morning my Chlorine is up to 19ppm. How can I hold it there? Should I put in more bleach now? Should I test again at noon and if it's below 15 I just dump in some more bleach?

I'm sorry if I sound ignorant.. but I really want to get this right. I am wasting so much money and the pool is essentially useless until we clear it up.

By the way.. the water turned much darker green yesterday.

[Watermom]

Every time you test, add enough bleach to get the chlorine reading back up to 15ppm. The more consistent you can do this, the faster the pool will clear. You need to maintain the chlorine at shock level until you can go from sundown one evening to within 2 hours of sunrise the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine, you have no higher than 0.5ppm of CC and the water is clear. Then, we usually suggest keeping the chlorine high for one more day for added insurance and then you can let the chlorine level drift down and keep it between 3-6 ALL the time.

Run your pump 24/7 right now and clean your filter whenever the pressure rises 8-10psi over your clean filter pressure.

[Jeannie]

Every time you test, add enough bleach to get the chlorine reading back up to 15ppm. The more consistent you can do this, the faster the pool will clear. You need to maintain the chlorine at shock level until you can go from sundown one evening to within 2 hours of sunrise the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine, you have no higher than 0.5ppm of CC and the water is clear. Then, we usually suggest keeping the chlorine high for one more day for added insurance and then you can let the chlorine level drift down and keep it between 3-6 ALL the time.

Run your pump 24/7 right now and clean your filter whenever the pressure rises 8-10psi over your clean filter pressure.


I'm on Day 3 of keeping my chlorine up there... I'm at about 16ppm.. although it did get as high as 20. And it's not even looking a little better. I'm feeling sooo discouraged. Hanging in there.

[PoolDoc]

OK, there are 2 stages to this: killing the algae, and cleaning up the algae. Is the algae dead, yet?
(Dead = blue, blue-gray or gray water with NO green PLUS no green when you brush or vacuum)

Also, I haven't seen a full set of test results yet (FC, CC, pH, TA, CH, CYA). Can you post the most current readings?

Finally, what color is/was the sediment you had, and what color is your backwash discharge?

[Jeannie]

The pool is GREEN. It's straight up green. It may have gotten a LITTLE lighter green.. but it's definitely still GREEN.

Last results (this evening):
Ph: 7.4
TA: 110
CYA: 50 (it went up.. but I didn't add stabilizer or anything)
FC: 20
CC: 0? I guess? the sample didn't change color.
I didn't test for CH today.. but I think last time it was around 200.


Forgot.. the sediment that we DID have was green. I don't know if there is anything now because I can't see the bottom of the pool.


(Two posts waiting in the queue were combined.)

[Jeannie]

Tested CH today.. it was 120.


I got in the pool to scrub it down.. there is NO slime or slick feeling at all. It's GREEN so it must be algae.. but not slippery. And I used my brush.. but there is nothing on the walls that is coming off. I'm so confused.


(Two posts waiting in the moderation queue were combined.)

[PoolDoc]

OK. You've got a K2006, so we can start testing.

We've got a baseline of

FC: 20
CC: 0
pH: 7.4
TA: 110
CH: 120
CYA: 50

Here's what I want you to do:

1. If your pump is not running 24/7, set it to do so.

2. This evening, add 1 full gallon of PLAIN 6% bleach to your pool. Test the FC level (10 ml sample) BEFORE, and 1 hour AFTER you add the bleach.

3. Tomorrow AM, before 8 am, test the FC level again (10 ml sample) Then, if the chlorine level is below 20 ppm, add another gallon. Post your results.

4. Make a list of EVERYTHING you've added to the pool, from the time just before it turned green, till now. Be as complete and accurate as possible. If you don't know quantities, include brands and products without quantities. Post that info. Include approximate dates.

5. Tomorrow PM, do another complete set of tests (FC, CC, pH, TA, CH, CYA) and post the results. Then add another gallon of bleach.

[Jeannie]

I just used the last of my R-0871! I ordered a new one a few days ago (expedited) but it's not showing shipped yet. I have the OTO thing but it only goes up to 6. I called all the pool stores around here and they don't sell this! How can I test for an accurate number?

[Jeannie]

Pool was crystal clear through most of July.

It rained and then it started to get cloudy/green… we added a bag of shock that night and ran the filter. The next day it didn’t look any better or worse.

+ We went to the store and they sold us Green to Clean. We used Green to Clean and Power Powder Plus. The next day it was a little lighter green.

+ We shocked again and it was a pleasant blue green in time for the party… but not crystal clear blue like we wanted. The result was also that the alkalinity and chlorine were REALLY low – my Ph was a little low too. And the pool was getting greener.

+ Soda Ash was added to increase Ph.. it brought up the TA to around 120 but the Ph stayed around 7.2.

+ We added Imperial Black Out Algaecide

+ and Green Out Shock in a moment of panic. The next day the Ph was up, the Chlorine was way up (around 15-18ppm). The pool was still green. That night the chlorine was down a bit (I don’t remember the number – but I added more shock).

+ The pool guy said it might be metal. We added Metal Free. No change.

+ The following days we would bring the chlorine up to 18 or so.. if it dropped below 10ppm. The green stayed.

+ Pool store said we didn’t need shock.. it was probably a faulty filter and gave us Blue Seal product.. a cationic polymeric coagulant? He said It would help filter out the particles that were making the pool greenish.

+ A few days later the green just got REALLY bad. That’s when we started adding bleach. I added 1 gallon the first night and it came up from 12 to around 18ppm.

+ I started testing 3 times a day, keeping the chlorine levels upwards of 15 (usually closer to 20).

+ All I’ve added since the 5th has been straight 6% plain bleach.

+ I went to the pool store today and he did a manual test on the water. He said all my numbers are pretty perfect except that my chlorine is astronomical. I have no metals in the water. He was / is stumped.

I am frustrated.. and now I don’t have a way to test my CC and FC until my new reagent comes.
ALSO.. no slime, not slick or anything. You wouldn’t even know it’s green if you just jumped in.. the water feels great.

[PoolDoc]

I just used the last of my R-0871! . . . How can I test for an accurate number?
Sorry, that's the only way. You'll have to wait.

The work-arounds aren't accurate enough to measure what you need to measure. While you're waiting for the R0871, keep your chlorine in the DARK yellow / orangish-yellow range with OTO.


Pool was crystal clear through most of July.It rained and then it started to get cloudy/green… we added a bag of shock that night and ran the filter. The next day it didn’t look any better or worse.

Cloudy-green after rain = algae. So that's our starting point.

By the way, the only reason rain 'causes' algae, is that people stop being as careful with their pool chemicals when it rains. Pool stores don't explain that, because they make MUCH more money cleaning up algae than they do preventing it.


+ We went to the store and they sold us Green to Clean. We used Green to Clean and Power Powder Plus. The next day it was a little lighter green.[QUOTE]

This stuff?

http://images.intheswim.com/images/cat_image/Y4530_f.jpg

It's ammonia. Usually not what you want in your pool. At high pH (>7.8) you form monochloramine which is very effective at killing algae, but also very effective at irritating people. By the way, when you use this stuff your chlorine demand will sky-rocket.

[QUOTE]+ We shocked again and it was a pleasant blue green in time for the party… but not crystal clear blue like we wanted. The result was also that the alkalinity and chlorine were REALLY low – my Ph was a little low too. And the pool was getting greener.
Low pH with ammonia and chlorine produces dichloramine and other nasty stuff -- NOT good at killing algae; exceptionally irritating.


+ Soda Ash was added to increase Ph.. it brought up the TA to around 120 but the Ph stayed around 7.2.
OK


+ We added Imperial Black Out Algaecide
Interesting. PAN is reporting that the pesticide registration on that product was cancelled years ago:
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=04852000018&DIST_NR=043937


+ and Green Out Shock in a moment of panic. The next day the Ph was up, the Chlorine was way up (around 15-18ppm). The pool was still green. That night the chlorine was down a bit (I don’t remember the number – but I added more shock).[QUOTE]

Found Green Out Shock -- what a MESS! It's a hodge podge product with some dichlor PLUS some linear quat PLUS 35% mystery goo.

Hm-mh. Just looked at your location -- you're in these guys (Island Rec) market area. Is this the product line you've been using? http://www.islandrecreational.com/Pool_Opening.pdf
and http://128.253.223.36/ppds/517234.pdf

(all archived in SPR under Blue Seal - Island Rec)

[QUOTE]+ The pool guy said it might be metal. We added Metal Free. No change.[QUOTE]
Metal Free used to be EDTA, but it's now ~2% citric acid -- and is gone as soon as your chlorine level is re-established.


[QUOTE]+ The following days we would bring the chlorine up to 18 or so.. if it dropped below 10ppm. The green stayed.


+ Pool store said we didn’t need shock.. it was probably a faulty filter and gave us Blue Seal product.. a cationic polymeric coagulant? He said It would help filter out the particles that were making the pool greenish.
More Island Rec goo . . . but probably not a primary problem.


+ A few days later the green just got REALLY bad. That’s when we started adding bleach. I added 1 gallon the first night and it came up from 12 to around 18ppm.
Bad, how?

Bad as in clear, but REALLY green? Or bad, as in cloudy green?


+ I started testing 3 times a day, keeping the chlorine levels upwards of 15 (usually closer to 20).
Ok, this is before bleach. What were you using at this point?


+ All I’ve added since the 5th has been straight 6% plain bleach.



+ I went to the pool store today and he did a manual test on the water. He said all my numbers are pretty perfect except that my chlorine is astronomical. I have no metals in the water. He was / is stumped.


I am frustrated.. and now I don’t have a way to test my CC and FC until my new reagent comes.
ALSO.. no slime, not slick or anything. You wouldn’t even know it’s green if you just jumped in.. the water feels great.

OK. Nothing to do till the R0871 comes in, except:

1. Keep the chlorine HIGH.
2. Filter 24/7; if you need to clean pay attention to the color of the backwash.

I do not know why your pool is green. I can think of two possibilities, but I have no way right now to prove either one:

(a) you have grown some really, really chlorine resistant algae. If this is it, it will show up when the chlorine is taken to 40 ppm, and check PM to AM. Can't do that now.

(b) some of the mystery goo ("inert ingredients") in your Blue Seal products may have reacted and changed the color of your water. Thinks like magnesium carbonate and zinc in various forms are being added as mystery goo. No doubt there are other chemicals I have not been able to ID, that are part of the mystery goo various companies use.

It is possible to change the color of water, by adding various chemicals. I've seen it happen a few times, but not much because as soon as I've had contact with a pool I immediately switched to "I-know-whats-in-them" chemicals only.

I can tell you in the cases I encountered, it eventually went away. But, because it was 'mystery goo', we never found out why or what it was. And, no, the chemical companies will just tell you it's "proprietary information".

[Jeannie]

The water is VERY cloudy.. not clear at all. It's dark green and cloudy. Every morning my husband tells me the leprechauns are dancing on the pool demanding their pot of gold.

Also.. yes.. that link shows both the green out and the imperial black algae out.. although the algaecide is a different bottle than what I have. I did get those products at Island Rec (had a gift credit from when they screwed my pool up last year). I bought the Power Powder Plus and the Green to Clean at Leslie's.

I have noticed that my TA is coming down a bit.. it's at 100 now.

When you say "It will show up when the chlorine is taken to 40ppm".. what does that mean? I'll see the algae? It will get slimy?

Thank you again!

[PoolDoc]

Ok. If it's green AND cloudy, it's almost certainly algae.

Add 8 gallons of 6% bleach this evening -- about 50 ppm of chlorine -- and see what you've got in the morning. If possible, test with OTO drops in the AM, as well. Don't pour all the bleach in the same spot -- you don't want to 'hot-spot' your pool.

[Jeannie]

Ok. If it's green AND cloudy, it's almost certainly algae.

Add 8 gallons of 6% bleach this evening -- about 50 ppm of chlorine -- and see what you've got in the morning. If possible, test with OTO drops in the AM, as well. Don't pour all the bleach in the same spot -- you don't want to 'hot-spot' your pool.

EIGHT GALLONS? Wow.

[PoolDoc]

Yeah, I've occasionally seen people 'grow' nice crops of VERY chlorine resistant algae. The pool goop see-saw you've been riding is ideal for that purpose. ;)

[Jeannie]

I only had 6.84 gallons.. I threw it all in. I was going to add the 3 lbs of Power Powder Plus that I had.. but figured I'd stop adding that stuff!

[Jeannie]

Okay... 1 drop of the OTO turned the water orange.
My CH was 120
My Ph looked to be red.. way up matching the 8
My TA was weird. It never turned red. It went from a very odd looking green (blueish) to YELLOW. It took 8 drops.. so 80.
CYA also seems to have gone up? It looks about 55.

I am - quite honestly - ready to just close the pool and my kids are devastated.

[PoolDoc]

Your pH and TA readings will be weird with chlorine that high -- that's normal. Ignore them. (Don't test them! -- Don't test anything but chlorine.)

Here's the important question, once the sun hits your pool: what does the water LOOK like?

If it looks at all better, plan to put up to 8 gallons in tonight. But, test first -- don't add that much unless (a) the water looks better and (b) the OTO is no longer orange.

. . . . and Jeannie, I'm sorry, but we can't magically undo all the wrong things that have been done to your pool, under your pool store's instructions. We can help you recover, but when you hit yourself in the head with a hammer -- even when though the 'doctor' told you to do so -- you're gonna get a lump, and all we can do is try to take the hammer away, hand you some ice, and say, "don't do that any more, please!".

[Jeannie]

Oh.. and with all that.. not a SINGLE change to the pool water. Still dark green, still cloudy.

[Jeannie]

Your pH and TA readings will be weird with chlorine that high -- that's normal. Ignore them. (Don't test them! -- Don't test anything but chlorine.)

Here's the important question, once the sun hits your pool: what does the water LOOK like?

If it looks at all better, plan to put up to 8 gallons in tonight. But, test first -- don't add that much unless (a) the water looks better and (b) the OTO is no longer orange.

. . . . and Jeannie, I'm sorry, but we can't magically undo all the wrong things that have been done to your pool, under your pool store's instructions. We can help you recover, but when you hit yourself in the head with a hammer -- even when though the 'doctor' told you to do so -- you're gonna get a lump, and all we can do is try to take the hammer away, hand you some ice, and say, "don't do that any more, please!".

I get that. I don't expect miracles... but there has been absolutely ZERO change. Not even a little bit. I don't blame you or anyone but myself... but I am frustrated and I just can't afford 8 gallons of bleach a night. I'm sad.

[PoolDoc]

I just can't afford 8 gallons of bleach a night.

Do you have an OTO test -- the test sample should be ORANGE.

Honestly, if I was there, I would buy the chemicals myself, because I'd like to know what's going on. But, I'm not, so I can't. I'm afraid the best I can offer, is to help when you start up next year!

Please come ask EARLY (March!), so you can get what you need, BEFORE you're ready to open.

Best wishes!

[Jeannie]

What about draining the pool? Maybe that's an option? There is no sediment or slime or anything.. maybe if I just drain it down and add new water it would work?

=====================


Do you have an OTO test -- the test sample should be ORANGE.


Oh and it's ORANGE. Like.. the test kit says adds 3 drops.. it's ORANGE with just one drop.

[PoolDoc]

If you can drain and refill, it's VERY likely you can start up with no problems. And, if you are OTO-orange, with CYA=40, then draining might be the best idea.

Have you drained before? Do you understand the danger of the walls collapsing inwards?

Also, you need to understand you'll STILL have some chlorine resistant algae left in your pool -- you'll eliminate 90% or more of both the algae and the goop, but we'll need to make 100% that the remaining algae DIES as you refill.

You do realize you'll have to buy a number of additional chemicals? Probably your best bet for startup, if you can get access to a Sams Club, is their PoolBrand 24/pack of dichlor for about $50.

[Jeannie]

I've never used any start up chemicals? Maybe that's part of the issue? They gave me Jump Start and other stuff.. but I never put it in. I have a HUGE bucket of hockey pucks and a bucket of CYA and some Borax left. Oh.. and some soda ash. Plus the Jump start, the Black Algae Out and some bottles of winterizing chemicals they gave us with the pool.

What is DiChlor?

=======================

We bought the pool last year and there was a massive issue because the installers ripped the liner. After a year of back/forth they gave us a new liner this year.. but the pool was mostly empty from last autumn until May. I didn't have any collapse problems.. but now I'm worried. Maybe I should cover and then empty and refill when we get closer to swim season next year?

[PoolDoc]

1. List exactly what you've got -- brand name, % ingredients, product name, so we can see what you can use.

2. If it was empty all winter without problems, it's probably safe to drain.

3. Dichlor is sodium dichloro-isocyanurate -- equivalent to trichlor (probably the main ingredient in your pucks), but less chlorine and less acid. Both add chlorine and stabilizer and lower pH.

[Watermom]

Take a look at the ingredient list of your trichlor pucks. Make sure they do NOT have copper in them. If they do, you do NOT want to use them in your pool.

[Jeannie]

FANTASTIC NEWS!

There is some progress! The water is MUCH lighter now. It's almost a Carribean blue now. SOMETHING is working..

My numbers seem weird to me though:

Chlorine (using OTO) - bright orange-y yellow with one drop
Ph: 7.4
TA: 100
CYA: 50-60??

Is it normal for my CYA to go UP? I didn't add anything except the bleach.

Should I continue to shock the pool until it's crystal clear?

[PoolDoc]

Don't worry about testing other values for now -- you may not get accurate results.

But, I'd try to hold the chlorine high for a couple of days, before letting it drop.

[Jeannie]

Don't worry about testing other values for now -- you may not get accurate results.

But, I'd try to hold the chlorine high for a couple of days, before letting it drop.

Okay!

I got my drops today. My VC (right now) is at 20 and I have no CC.. is that bad?

[Watermom]

A CC reading of 0 is good! It is what you want! :)

[Jeannie]

I'm seeing improvement in the water.. but I need some help understanding a little better.

After testing yesterday afternoon, I added 5 gallons of bleach.

I tested last night before going to bed:

FC: 44
CC: None detected
TA: 100
Ph: 7.4

I added nothing.

This morning the number were exactly the same. Except the Ph had dipped a little to 7.2.

So it looks like.. I'm not losing any significant amount of chlorine overnight. Which is good and what we are looking for.. right? And I have no CC.. which (if I'm correct) is the by product created when the pool is 'fighting' something.

But I still have some green. I was in the pool yesterday morning and finally was able to see some green sediment which I wiped away with my scrubber. Rob went in last night and wiped it away again. I have vacuumed with my neighbors pool rover every.

I'm happy to see improvement (GENUINELY) but I want to stay on top of this so I don't see a change back to the nightmare bright green we had previously.

Any hints, advice?

[Watermom]

Stay on top of it and maintain the high chlorine. Don't try and test the pH when the chlorine is high or you won't get an accurate reading. Is your pressure rising on your filter? (You should be running the pump 24/7 right now.)

[Jeannie]

Stay on top of it and maintain the high chlorine. Don't try and test the pH when the chlorine is high or you won't get an accurate reading. Is your pressure rising on your filter? (You should be running the pump 24/7 right now.)

We are running it 24/7 (much to my husband's chagrin).. I don't see a change in the pressure though.. should we?

[PoolDoc]

I don't see a change in the pressure though.. should we?

Not necessarily. Is the pool clear?

The no chlorine lost overnight is good news. However, if the green is STILL not gone, you may want to take it up another notch. You do NOT want to get into a new detente or stalemate with your 'super-algae' at a slightly less green level. You want ABSOLUTE victory, as in, all algae dead and all green gone.

[Jeannie]

Not necessarily. Is the pool clear?

The no chlorine lost overnight is good news. However, if the green is STILL not gone, you may want to take it up another notch. You do NOT want to get into a new detente or stalemate with your 'super-algae' at a slightly less green level. You want ABSOLUTE victory, as in, all algae dead and all green gone.

It's still green.. but now a more pleasant blue green. I'll keep powering through with the bleach!

[PoolDoc]

How is it going, with your pool?