Deep Blue Water MP3000 Mpluse - does it work?

[spibill]

Calcium climbs from 250 to 500 over 3 months, making it difficult to maintain a safe SI. TA @ 75 to 80 adj. to 55 to 60 using wheel, w/ CYA at 65. PH requires 8 to 12 oz acid every 3 days or so to bring down to 7.8 Pool is very warm 90+ now on So Padre Is. TX. I can't find any reviews on MP3000 but am wary. Does anyone have any experience?

[Charlie_R]

Just out of curiosity, how new/old is the pool? Has it been recently replastered?

[spibill]

Pool is 16 months old but they had to drain and acid wash about 6 months ago because the blue color faded significantly. I filled it w/ watersoftner water to keep the calcium down since our tap warer is close to 500.

[PoolDoc]

I had to grin at your post title: we've learned that when folks ask "does it work?" questions about chemicals, over 75% of the time, the answer is, "No!".

So, I can tell you, no, it probably doesn't work, and have a very good chance of being right -- though I don't even know what it is.

However, I'll check before I answer . . . so off to Google I go!

[PoolDoc]

Let's start with company and product info:

Address (from Aquatics magazine)
Deep Blue Water Technologies
1345 E. Chandler Blvd., Suite 119
Phoenix, AZ 85408
Phone: (602) 441-9150 (877) 882-4695 Fax: (520) 887-0092
www.4deepblue.com
Brands: MPULSE 3000

Address from BBB
Deep Blue Water Technologies
Phone: (877) 882-4695 Fax: (480) 497-4200
3145 E. Chandler Blvd., #110-718
Phoenix, AZ 85048
http://www.4deepblue.com

Another listed address:
Deep Blue Water Technologies
(480) 497-4200
170 S William Dillard Dr Ste 104
Gilbert, AZ 85233

And, yet another listed address, from "Manta"
Deep Blue Water Technologies, LLC
3881 N Oracle Road
Tucson, AZ 85705-3252 map
Phone: (520) 887-2997

OK. Looks like they've moved around quite a bit, but the BBB gives them an A+ rating, since there have been no complaints.
www.bbb.org/central-northern-western-arizona/business-reviews/water-filtration-and-purification-equipment/deep-blue-water-technologies-in-phoenix-az-1000001671/


Description of 'how it works':

Impulse technology uses 3000 to 5000 low voltage, high frequency electrical impulses per second to break down the calcium bicarbonate and magnesium bicarbonate crystals and change them into a powder form (carbonate). This powder form does not stick to the pool tiles or rock surfaces. No more calcification. The results will be a clearer, more enjoyable pool system with fewer maintenance costs. The MPULSE 3000« is easy to install in both new and existing swimming pools. And best yet, there is nothing to add and it needs no maintenance or servicing.

http://www.ezpoolz.com/products/deep-blue-water-mp3000-mpulse.html

[PoolDoc]

OK.

Bottom line: I do not know how it works, or if it works. My STRONG suspicion is that it has ZERO effect on the calcium in your pool.

In fact, if you can come up with some way to TEST whether it works or not (that we can agree measures fairly), I'll bet $100 to your $1, that it does not work.

The copy reads just like the magnets they used to sell to do similar things, and as far as I know, there has never been ANY evidence that they did anything useful, EITHER. At least part of the description above, is chemistry bunkum:

break down the calcium bicarbonate and magnesium bicarbonate crystals and change them into a powder form (carbonate)
That quote is not just wrong, it's stupid. Calcium bicarbonate is extremely soluble, but even more importantly, does not exist in solid form, much less as crystals! Magnesium carbonate -- to get magnesium bicarbonate, you have to dissolve, and then acidify magnesium carbonate -- is just chalk, and not very prone to forming "crystals". And to say that "carbonate" = "powder form" is simply nonsense, sort of like saying that "water" = "heavy" or "iron" = "yellow".

But, I've invited Chem_Geek and Waterbear to weigh in with their reactions.

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_bicarbonate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_carbonate

[waterbear]

In a word, No. Pure pseudoscience and snake oil. A quote from a description of how it works (http://www.h2opoolproducts.com/mpulse-3000-p-1801.html?osCsid=lf3bgnqo5n3ue2j621fpmv0en0):
"The MPULSE 3000 treats pool water by applying high frequency, low voltage impulses directly to the water to change the calcium bicarbonate to a carbonate form at the molecular level. In the carbonate state, the calcium can no longer adhere to pool surfaces."

Considering that calcium bicarbonate does not exist exept as ionic species in slolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_bicarbonate
and that calcium carbonate is the chemical that makes up scale deposits the above statement is pure bunk!
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/aquacrack.html#DB
(scroll down to Electrolytic Water Treatment)
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/aquacrack.html
(scroll down to H20 Concepts)

Now if you go to Deep Blue's current website (http://www.4deepblue.com/category_s/27.htm) they have change how it works by stating that the impusles convert the form of calcium carbonate that precipitates from calcite to aragonite (which is more soluble but form a much more difficult to remove scale deposit).
http://books.google.com/books?id=nCFUeDigF8UC&pg=PA198&lpg=PA198&dq=what+determines+if+calcite+or+aragonite+precipi tates+out+of+hard+water&source=bl&ots=kUB0hyG95u&sig=2o7LWqwiFXUwH7HhrrAEhAovPHw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j_kXULW2AYuO8wTVk4HwDg&ved=0CGUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=what%20determines%20if%
(scroll down to calcite and aragonite)
A much easier way to favor the precipitation of aragonite over calcite is to add magnesium to the water (which also favors the production of magnesium scale, which is much softer than calcium scale and much easier to remove, since it is what we commonly call chalk. Magnesium salts are sometimes added to salt pool to make the salt cells easier to clean for this reason but the jury is still out as to whether this works or not. In theory it should but things that should work in theory don't always when tried in the real world. Also, araonite tents to self convert to calcite in the presence of water at normal pool temperatures and aragonite scale is actually much harder than calcite scale even though it's solubility constant is higher, which means that it will not deposit as fast but once it does it is much harder to remove!)
(FWIW, I was involved in an oceanographic physical chemistry research project at U of M in the early '70s in the precipitation of calcium carbonate from various seawater like solutions, artificial seawater, and Copenhagen seawater and one of the main things I was responsible for was determining whether the calcite or aragonite form would precipitate as we introduced various ions to the samples we would run so I have a bit of firsthand knowledge about this too.)
Here is another article debunking the supposed way this system works:
http://www.4water1.com/articles/aqa_ncdscience.html

Don't waste your money!

[waterbear]

Spibill,
I noticed in your sig that you have an ozone generator. They are basically worthless in an outdoor pool (but can be useful in an indoor pool with a persistent combined chlorine problem or in a bromine system). Ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa and in a pool is often likely to increase the amount of chlorine needed to maintain a desired free chlorine level. Ozone does NOT allow you to run a lower FC level (with a salt pool your FC should be at least 5% of your CYA and your CYA should be at the manufacturer's recommended MAXIMUM, which for the IntelliChlor is 100 ppm (http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/IntelliChlorQuickOM.pdf) so you should keep your FC at 5 ppm or a bit higher). Under certain conditions (very high bather load, persistent CC problems) ozone MIGht allow you to set the cell output lower to achieve this FC level but the chances are it is actually requiring a higher setting of you cell then without ozone.
The good news is that you have a UV ozone generator and they really don't do a whole lot (except waste whatever money you spent on it). CD ozone generators are the only ones that really work but they need a drying chamber and reaction chamber to be effective. Finally, ozone is not residual and there should be NO ozone in the water introduced into the pool, since ozone is extremely toxic. As an experiment, turn off the ozone and see if you need to change the setting on the SWCG to maintain the SAME FC level (which, as I said, should be 5% of your CYA which should be at 100 ppm.)

Also, with a salt pool you will have better pH stability (and less chance of scale precipitating) if you lower the TA (UNADJUSTED) to about 70 ppm and do not let the pH climb above 7.8. Even with a CH of 500 or above this will keep your SI in range at temperatures up to 104 degress (for your spa). Adding borate to 50 ppm will also help lower the SI a bit so you have a bit more 'breathing room'. From playing with your numbers I don't really see you pool having a scaling problem, even with the high calcium (once the plaster is fully cured) if you keep the CYA at 100 ppm, FC at 5-6 ppm, TA 70 ppm, pH no higher than 7.8 (8.0 is fine if CH is below 500 ppm), CH below 600, and also consider adding 50 ppm borate which will further help lower the SI and also help stabilize the pH at around 7.7 for a longer period of time than without borate).

Don't put too much stock in the wheel that comes in the K-2006 nor some of the info in the booklet.
While much of it is good there is also some misinformation included. The info about the test interferences and the treatment tables are all that you really need. If you want to use adjusted TA because you are putting the CYA at 100 ppm the easy way is to just subtact about 33 ppm from the unadjusted TA. It will be close enough (or just put your unadjusted TA at 80 ppm and you should be fine, particularly if you add the borate.)

[spibill]

Thanks for all your efforts. You confirmed my suspicions.

[spibill]

Thank you for following up on the ozone generator. I've turned it off and increased the SWCG from 20% to 40% to raise FC. Been running it at 1 to 2 ppm per ozone manual with no problems (crystal clear water) other than frequent acid addition to keep pH down below 8, and CH increasing making it hard to maintain an acceptable SI with pool temp up to 94.
Couple of questions: IntelliChlor manual says "FC 2.0-4.0 Above 4.0 ppm may cause corrosion of metal components"
pH : 7.2 - 7.8, CYA : 50-80 ppm, TA : 80-120 ppm

If wheel can not be relied on, how should I do SI, or should I not bother with it?

I just re-read thread from Jan/Feb - 14386 & 14387 - I think ( number at bottom of page I printed out back then ). I'm going to retest everything. I have not been testing very often for CYA or Borate.

[spibill]

Ok here are my numbers with K2006
TA: 70
pH: 8
FC: 2.6 plan to leave SWCG as is for now
CH: 475
CYA: <30 plan to add 5 # CYA to bring up to 80 ppm
Borate: 30 plan to add 7.5 # Borax and 2 qt acid to bring to 50 ppm
Temp: 90
Salt: 6400 w/ drop test and 4600 w/ strip Don't understand how it increased from 2200 in Feb. SWCG says it is ok but why didn't it get diluted vs. increase? Perhaps there is salt from the atmosphere from the very salty Laguna Madre that we border on.
SI: .63 w/ wheel TA adj to 61 ( 70-9 with CYA so low )

I will wait until I get confirmation on my plans.

[waterbear]

with the numbers above you have a CSI of .3 which is ok. However, a salt pool is probably better off with a slightly negative CSI. By increaing the CYA to 100, borate to 50, dropping pH to about 7.6 to 7.8, increasing the FC to 5 or 6 ppm you would move the CSI to about -.15 to -.2. Anywhere from .3 to -.3 is fine and .6 to -.6 is acceptable so don't stress that much over CSI

IntelliChlor manual says "FC 2.0-4.0 Above 4.0 ppm may cause corrosion of metal components"

That is a true statement in an unstabilized pool. Once you add CYA the game changes and that is no longer the case. However, even manufacturers and chemical companies don't understand this basic fact of chlorine chemistry.
As for as the CYA range of 50 to 80, that is the recommended range but in their quick start guide they give a max of 100 as the link I posted above had shown.

As far as your salt test readings...the Taylor drop based salt test is easy to overshoot the endpoint (stop when the color changed from cloudy yellow to salmon red --look at the color on a can of red salmon for a reference -- and does not revert back to yellow on swirling the tube, if you go to a red brown color you have gone to far) and the Aquachek salt strips need to sit in the sample for a FULL 10 MINUTES to get an accurate reading or they can read low (as can old strips or ones that have been ruined by humidity. The two test should not be that far apart. up to about 800 ppm is acceptable variance but 1800 ppm is way too much!

[spibill]

Thanks, I'll increase CYA closer to 100 and Borate to 50 and drop pH to 7.6 tomorrow and report. FC should continue to increase to 5-6 range with current setting. As far as the salt, I'll get new strips and also repeat drop test. Drop test got very cloudy/clumpy lite grey early as I added drops last time. Also, how can I calculate CSI?

[waterbear]

Thanks, I'll increase CYA closer to 100 and Borate to 50 and drop pH to 7.6 tomorrow and report. FC should continue to increase to 5-6 range with current setting. As far as the salt, I'll get new strips and also repeat drop test. Drop test got very cloudy/clumpy lite grey early as I added drops last time. Also, how can I calculate CSI?

If you keep the nimbers where I said you don't need to worry about the CSI

[spibill]

Yesterday I got CYA up to 80. Need to get more CYA on Monday to increase to 100.

[spibill]

Tests today:
TA climbed to 100 from 90 yesterday
pH climbed to 7.6 from 7.4 "
FC dropped to 6.5 from 8 "

Should I try to reduce TA ?

[PoolDoc]

Should I try to reduce TA ?

Why?

[waterbear]

With a SWCG dropping your TA to around 70 ppm will slow the pH rise caused by the cell generating and causing aeration of the water which causes CO2 to outgas which causes pH rise.

However, before you attack TA get the CYA in line and get the unit adusted to maintaiin 5-6 ppm FC. Then adjust the TA and keep your pH between 7.6 to 8.0 (actually, when it climbs above 7.8 drop it back to 7.6.)

[spibill]

I'll get more CYA tomorrow.

[spibill]

CYA up to 100. pH has been holding at 7.6 for 3 days, first time ever for that. I'll monitor a few days then reduce TA.

[waterbear]

Once you reduce the TA do not lower the pH below 7.6 and when it just climbs above 7.8 drop it back to 7.6. In conjunction with keeping the CYA at 100 and maintaining the FC at 5-6 ppm you should find that your pH becomes much more stable than it has been, particularly with the 50 ppm borate.