Pressure

[wilbur14]

I have a problem with air in the pot strainer when running the pump. It only happens when I have both skimmers open and the main drain. I have a d.e. filter and when the pressure is at about 22 I get a lot of air. When I close the skimmer closest to the pump about 1/2 and the main drain about 1/2 it all clears up.

This morning I decided to use my "Circulators " on the returns. Haven't used them in a long time but the water seems to be a little cloudy and I am sure the bottom water is not getting filtered enough since I have the main drains closed. When I put on the Circulators the pressure goes up to about 28 to 30 and I can open all 3 valves, the 2 skimmers and the main with no air.

Why is air getting thru when the pressure is at 22? I might add the water coming out of the returns about put a hole thru your body if you get too close.

[PoolDoc]

Not quite sure what "circulators" are . . .

[wilbur14]

circulators are these devices that screw into your returns and go round and and sweep the return water across the bottom and sides of the pool. keeps the dirt off the floor and sides.

The return water is basically operating them.

My concern is why when the pressure gauge runs at 30 to 32 the air stream stops when all three valves are open.

When i reinstall the eyeball diverters the pressure goes to 22 and all this air returns in the pot strainer and out the returns. I have to close the main half way and one skimmer half way. There is a crackling noise in the multi port valve when all of this air is coming thru.

I replaced all o rings tightened all connections..could it be in the multiport valve..it is a sta rite

[Watermom]

Wilbur, I wish I could advise you on your pressure question, but I can't. Someone should be able to though. I would like to ask that you post a picture of the circulators when you have a minute. I'm curious to see what they are, plus it might help someone answer your pressure question, too.

You can either use Photobucket. Flickr, Picasa or the like or email pics to poolforum@gmail.com and reference the URL of this thread.

[PoolDoc]

circulators are these devices that screw into your returns and go round and and sweep the return water across the bottom and sides of the pool. keeps the dirt off the floor and sides.

Without photos or catalog info, I can't be 100% sure, but most devices like that generate a huge amount of back pressure, and waste a lot of your circulation. (For reference: in-floor pressure side pool cleaning systems are HUGE energy wasters!)

[BigDave]

Is it possible that you are pulling so much water through the skimmer that you're pulling air in as well? Is the water level low? Is there a vortex in the skimmer? What happens if you shut the skimmer and open the main drain all the way?

[wilbur14]

If I close the skimmers and have just the main drain I get all that air. The water coming out of my returns were never as hard as it has been this year. Again, when the pressure starts to register in the 30's from the 20's it seems to clear up. It just seems like the water pressure coming out of the returns is way too strong.......the circulators should not be a concern, just mentioned I put them on and when you do the pressure on the filter goes up because as you say it causes a lot of back pressure. If I dont have them on and run the pump for so long and the pressure goes up because of being dirty , the same thing happens, the air dissapears.

[PoolDoc]

Gonna have to send -- or post -- pictures of your pool AND piping. Post using Photobucket, Flickr, Webshots, or Picasa, or email them to poolforum@gmail.com

[Shifty]

Wilbur,

How do you install the circulators? Is the inside of your returns smooth?

[wilbur14]

yes, they are smooth and the just screw on in place of the eyeball diverter. They have a website if you google. Most poolsupplies sites have them

[Shifty]

I don't have an eyeball diverter. That is why I asked if your returns were smooth. To me it seems the diverter would need to snugly fit the returns since there are no grooves to screw it into the returns. Just curious because it would be nice to position one of my returns towards the floor to kick up any debris that settles.

[Watermom]

I was curious to see what a circulator was so I did google it. (Anybody wanna go swimming in that pool filled with red dye? :p How many gallons of bleach ya think it would take to clean that mess up!)

http://www.thecirculator.com/

[PoolDoc]

Yet another product without a purpose. My personal opinion is that this quote;

and in just a few short months the Circulator will pay for itself and put money back in your pocket with savings in electricity, heating, and maintenance. Chemicals work much more efficiently to give you a safer and healthier pool.
is wrong in every detail.

However, users very likely can always expect to see the sort of pressure problems experienced by the original poster in this thread.

[PoolDoc]

Oh, my; more details! Here's their location . . . at the UPS Store!:
6860 Gulfport Blvd S
South Pasadena, FL 33707

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5lW35Iz6ok8/UBqdXYKmObI/AAAAAAAADxE/Ws6ZY4UiK7c/s800/thecirculator-address.jpg

http://goo.gl/maps/UCfBU

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Uf2-FNdexc8/UBqcX06hxbI/AAAAAAAADws/BGN4GVWOB7o/s800/thecirculator-location.jpg

And, their anonymous domain registration:

Registrant:
Domain Discreet Privacy Service
ATTN: thecirculator.com
12808 Gran Bay Pkwy, West
Jacksonville, FL 32258
US
Phone: 1-902-7492701
Email: d12291ed0a1612330989b0fda762662c@domaindiscreet.co m

. . . The general rule here is, "Don't buy from someone who's trying to hide from you!"

[Watermom]

I can't see how you would ever get floating debris into the skimmer if you used the circulator. I also think you would have to vacuum more often because any floating stuff that would normally make it into the skimmer would, (I think) get forced down to the floor of the pool.

[PoolDoc]

And, still more info:

The phone number on the Circulator website, 561-208-6535, is

(561) 208-6535 is a Landline
Florida (Boca Raton)
South Florida/Gold Coast metro area, Palm Beach County

and is associated with

Legacy Worldwide, Inc
9235 Captiva Circle
Saint Pete Beach, FL 33706-1356 map
Wesley T Welden
President

The address is a Florida condo, here:
http://goo.gl/maps/Wmjqi

Also, the website lists an extensive C.V. for "Dan Jones" who

along with other highly-skilled engineers have worked diligently over several years to bring to you this most significant item for your swimming pool. The patented "One and Only" Circulator is a modern marvel that will give you up to 1500% more circulating power, saving you time and money for the healthy life of your pool.
http://www.thecirculator.com/about_us.php

This C.V. lists three technical articles which "Dan" is supposed to have written:

"Gas Flow Resistance Measurements Through Packed Beds at High Reynolds Number", Transactions for the ASME: Journal of Fluids Engineering, Presented at International Fluids Conference-Paper No. 83-FE-8, June 1983.
"Numerical Determination of Surface Temperatures for In-Depth Thermocouples" Presented at 19th International Thermal Physics Conference, Snowmass, Colorado, Paper No. AIAA-84-1763
"Composite Millimeter Wave Radome For Mach 4+", Presented at the 5th DOD Electromagnetic Windows Symposium, Boulder, Colorado, October 1993.

Now, the second two articles are unknown to Google. That doesn't prove that they are fabricated, but it's not a good sign. However, it's the first article that's the 'coffin nail'; it exists, and can be found on DTIC.ml, http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a091300.pdf . So what's the problem? Take a look at this image of the title page:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4eeXlwUi3Zw/UBq4AJL_DII/AAAAAAAADxU/njFQP43MnHE/s800/thecirculator-article01.jpg

Notice anything? Here's a clue: no "Dan Jones".

There's more, and I've archived all the data I found, along with the copy of the entire website as of 2Aug2012. But I think this is enough.

[Spensar]

It remind me of the 80s doo hickeys that you only had to install in your fuel line to save big on gasoline.

[Charlie_R]

If I close the skimmers and have just the main drain I get all that air. The water coming out of my returns were never as hard as it has been this year. Again, when the pressure starts to register in the 30's from the 20's it seems to clear up. It just seems like the water pressure coming out of the returns is way too strong.......the circulators should not be a concern, just mentioned I put them on and when you do the pressure on the filter goes up because as you say it causes a lot of back pressure. If I dont have them on and run the pump for so long and the pressure goes up because of being dirty, the same thing happens, the air dissapears.

Better start checking all the tubing between your main drain and filter. In certain conditions, a small crack or unglued joint will not leak water, but if put under a slight vacuum, will allow air in. Also, check to see that your main drain doesn't have any debris (hair, leaves etc) under the grate, reducing the amount of water flow available.

I have seen cavitation happen at sharp 90 bends under vacuum conditions in hydraulic systems and this might be a possibility here as well.