Advice on a new pool in Plano, Tx

[littlesandie]

Hi everybody, I am about to get bids from several contractors and I need some advice on a few things. I have been reading these forums and am about to freak out! There are so many horror stories out there and I had no idea there were so many options to getting a pool. I would appreciate any help on what is the best pool for me; gunite, fiberglass, vinyl? etc. I have a 12 year old boy and I have read that vinyl may rip or tear so maybe I should go with gunite? Also I read that gunite lasts longer with fewer maintenance issues?! So, please help - I am a single mom and a pool dum dum!
Sandie

[mkamp1515]

Definetly go gunite. It will probably last longer. Make sure you read the fine print with regards to warranties and follow-up maintenance visits. Also, ask around and see who your friends, neighbors, etc. used and gage their experiences. Additionally, get multiple bids. A question I asked each one was "if your company did not exist, who would you use?" Some liked the question, some didn't. Those that did not were eliminated from my list.

I live in Crowley, TX which is just southwest of Fort Worth. We used Pulliam Pools. They are a Fort Worth based company and I am not sure they build in Plano. But they have been outstanding and there service is impeccable.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Mike

[j1mw3b]

After having my pool refinished; and haveing many problems with it, here are my new 2 rules for hiring any contractor:

1. Anytime they have workers on site, someone must be there who speaks English; fluently.

2. They must accept credit cards (Visa, etc). If they are check or cash only, then you are out of luck if you want them to come back to fix something and they refuse - legal action then becomes your only option. With a credit card, at least you can dispute it with card co.

3. The get their final payment after completion (and then a few days). Most pool cos. down here want their final payment BEFORE they start final plastering.

If these are unacceptable, then they don't get the job.
Lesson learned the hard way.

[GTakacs]

I just replied to someone in DFW about vinyl pools (see a bit further down). I think gunite is the way to go. I was in the research state a couple of months ago (waiting on dig date right now) and I was considering vinyl too, but given that practically all pool builders use gunite in Texas it was an easy decision.

I'd say stay away from national franchisees like Blue Haven Pools and get at least 3 quotes from other pool builders. The cheapest is not neccessarily the best way to go. A basic "play pool" price is in the lower $20s a basic diving pool is in the upper $20s in DFW. Basic play pool means 80ft perimiter 400 sq ft area 3-5-4 design, white plaster, brick bullnose coping, 450 sq ft of aggregate decking, DE filter, pump, manual timer box, 1 500W light, easy access with a backhoe and dump trucks to the property, no landscaping, no sprinkler system re-route, no utility re-route. This is a basic play pool. Basic diving pool is a bit longer and goes to 8-9ft depth, otherwise the same amenities.

Expected build time is about 2 months from contract date but I can see that as we're getting into the summer the time will get longer with more people in line.

As for options on the pool:
- shape. With gunite you can pretty much have any shape you want. Since in TX the soil is highly expansive and tends to move a lot, builders will advise against long and narrow and will recommend probably something that has at least 16 ft width.
- water features. You can have a sheer or cascading waterfall made from moss stones, you can have sheer descents, bubblers, deck jets, or whatever else you can imagine. Probably the most popular upgrade. It can run anywhere from $1000 to sky's the limit.
- pool finish. You can go with different finishes instead of regular plaster. The most popular nowadays is natural looking pebble surface which is not too different from aggregate P-gravel concrete except the pebbles are smaller. www.pebbletec.com is the "Band-Aid" or "Cleenex" of pebble surfaces. It will add probably $3000-5000 to a pool in cost.
- Coping. With nature look being popular flagstone coping is abundant in TX. It doesn't add too much to the price.
- Spa/Hot Tub. It can add $7000 to a pool in no time, let alone heating cost. If you have natural gas, heating might be viable, but with Propane you're looking at a lot of extra expense (tank installation and the propane is 3x the price of natural gas). And if you have a hot tub you have to have heating.
- Fencing. If you already have a 6ft privacy fence around your property you should be in OK shape. If you have no fence around your lot you will have to have some installed at least around the pool. Expect to pay $25/ft for some decent powder coated steel fence.
- Decking. The base package 450 sq ft of decking might not be enough. I am installing 680 sq ft around my pool. Decking also has different varieties from the basic aggregate concrete to stamped rocks to true flagstone. Cost goes from about $6/sq ft to $13/sq ft depending on what you choose.
- Salt water generator. It adds about $1300 to a pool from a builder but you can get one for around $800 on-line. I would not have a pool without it, but that's just me.
- Automation. Some people like to have a remote control to everything in their house which includes the pool. They want to control the pump/lights/heater/waterfall with the push of a button. Builders genrally charge $2000 for such a treat. The Jandy PDA system as an add-on to a salt water system from a builder will set you back $700 (so you get salt water and automation for $2000 essentially).
- lighting. You can get fiber optic lights, luminar jets (they look like colored glass rods of water dropping into the pool) and everything you can imagine. This is $$$.

Good luck!

[Simmons99]

Here is some advice:

Call 5-6 pool builders that have less than 5 Better Business Bureau issues in the last 36 months - and that any issues have been resolved. Ask the company what the issues were reguarding and what they have done to make sure the problem doesn't happen again. If they have 15 and they were all "impossible customers" - I would run in the other direction!
Ask each one the same question - what is better? It could be that a certain type of pool is better for the environmental conditions in your area. In Central FL, it was recommeded by every pool company to go with concrete. Also if you want something you can totally customize - a pre-fabbed pool may not be what you want.
Never ask a pool builder to install a feature/type of pool they don't normally do - you are certainly asking for trouble. Don't insist that a company who installs 100 concrete pools a year and only 5 vinyl pools install a vinyl pool in your yard. You will be able to tell when you talk to the sales people what they don't like to do - or don't do often, because the sales people will tell you why you shouldn't do it or they will seem less then forthcoming with information about a feature they don't normally install.
Don't pick a pool company because you like the sales person or because its the lowest price. Pick them because they have the best installation for the money.
When I looked into pool companies - I drove around and found people that were having pools installed by each builder I was looking at and knocked on their door to find out if the builder kept time lines, etc.


Most of all - good luck. As with any construction project there are always problems and set-backs, but a good company will keep you informed and work with you through the whole process!

[joelq]

LittleSandie - I live in Frisco and just signed a contract two weeks ago. We received bids from (in order of receiving bids) Platinum, Blue Haven (only because some friends of ours recommended them), Foley, Riverbend Sandler, and Water Frontiers.

All bids were for gunite pools, and from what I understand, gunite's the way to go in North Texas.

Blue Haven's bid was $5K less then everyone else's, but looking at their BBB problems and general service problems from people online, our decision was easy not to go with them.

I'd also suggest going to http://www.frisco-online.com. Go to the forums on the site. There are quite a few threads on selecting pool builders.

Good luck!

[CarlD]

Vinyl vs Gunite? Well, that's up to you. But the advice that you don't push a builder to do what he doesn't do is sound.

There is nothing wrong with vinyl. It's less expensive, repairable, and doesn't require curing, doesn't require calcium in the water (though pool builders and pool stores insist it does), and can safely tolerate much higher total alkalinity levels. Liners can last 15-20 years before being replaced if they aren't abused. They can tolerate ground shifting because they are flexible and stretch, and the ground underneath them can be basically sand. It's easy to add lights or returns, too--I added two new returns after the season a couple of years ago to accomodate my re-plumbing my solar panels.

On the other hand, vinyl liners can be torn by improperly wielded tools, dogs and other animals, and by grossly improper chemicals. Too much bleach will fade them, too low a pH (too acid) can weaken them. They don't look as good as gunite, and patches can be ugly. You also can NEVER drain all the water unless you are replacing the liner.

Gunite can tolerate much higher levels of chlorine (if you need to do EXTREME shocking) and much more acid water--lower pH. They don't tear from dog's nails or a mis-applied tool. And NOTHING looks as good as a beautifully designed and finished tiled pool. If your ground underneath it is water-free, you can fully drain them for maintenance and cleaning.

But they require curing and you MUST be very careful about your calcium and total alkalinity levels. They will require maintenance--anywhere from 5 to 10 years apart. They can crack if the ground shifts and the patches are hard to hide. If the pool is emptied and there's a lot of ground water, it can actually "float" up out of the ground. And they cost more than vinyl. Repairing the underground plumbing is far more expensive and harder to access.

So it's your choice. In MY humble opinion, I believe that vinyl is lower maintenance than gunite/concrete/tile, and, if properly installed and the water maintained, I know they last 15-20 years (always get the thickest, heaviest liner you can afford that's available).

But nothing looks as good gunite/tile.

[littlesandie]

Thanks to everyone for your advice and help! I am certainly learning a lot from this forum! I had one estimate yesterday from Anthony Sylvan Pools! (Anyone know anything about them? I have not seen 1 negative or 1 postive thing about them on any forum I have been on.) Doug Green came out and gave me an estimate - he seemed extremely nice and knowledgable! He helped me design a gunite pool (3x5x4) with a wall of water fall and 2 lion heads-a tanning ledge and stone coping. 400ft decking - they use 8inch centers - and they use the nature2 system with led color lighting. Also I liked the fact that they have a lifetime (transferrable) warranty for any cracks or problems with the pool. Also they have a 15 year warranty on the decking. And they have a $500. cash guarantee if your pool is not finished within 35 days of the contract signing. Oh Yea and the cost is about $27,000
How does all that sound?

[GTakacs]

I'd get quotes for the same pool design from another 2-3 builders. Also ask for the name and address of the last 30 pools he built and a couple of references from 5 years and 10 years back. I would not only get these references, I'd also call them. Check with the BBB and see if they have a record there.

$27,000 sounds probably right for a play pool with tanning ledge, flagstone coping and a water feature. The 400sq ft of decking is rather small, I would probably add more. The gunite warranty is nice, the fact that it's transferrable. I wonder what the 15 year warranty on the decking covers. Check what is covered and what is not. I am betting my own $500 that they will not finish the pool within 35 days from contract signing unless you're outside of city limit and they don't need permits. My builder said a typical build schedule is 40 days from dig date not counting rain delays.

On the Nature2 system, ask him if it's the Nature 2 Express or the Nature 2 Professional "G" Vessel. One costs $80 the other is $360.I asked my builder to have the Nature 2 installed and he said he'd "throw it in". Guess which one he "threw in"? You guessed it right, the cheap one. I had them upgrade it to the Express 2 Professional "G" at no additional cost.

Did you also get a salt water generator? Or is that what you meant by Nature 2? Zodiac makes a salt generator/nature2 combo unit.

Good luck!

[littlesandie]

"On the Nature2 system ask him if it's the Nature 2 Express or the Nature 2 Professional "G" Vessel."
I believe it is the Nature 2 Pro G however, I did some research on it and there is a Nature2 Pro G Plus system now - is that the one you are recommending or the Nature2 Pro G?
Also, the warranty on the decking is for anything from cracks to chips. He said they are the only pool company that offers that kind of warranty.
And as for the guarantee of 35 "working days" (which I assume does not count Sat and Sun..) he said they have never had to pay it! So we will see hahaha
And I forgot to add they have a "special" right now; that if I sign by next Sat (June 3) I will get a $1500.00 gift certificate to Sunnyland (an outdoor equip center specializing in BQ pits - pool equip - loungers etc.) I thought that was pretty good too?
Am I being too gullible?
Still have 2 more estimates from 2 other companies coming out this week.
Sandie

[cajunfla]

why not fiberglass?

[GTakacs]

I believe it is the Nature 2 Pro G however, I did some research on it and there is a Nature2 Pro G Plus system now - is that the one you are recommending or the Nature2 Pro G?
Nature 2 Pro G Plus is a Nature 2 + chlorine dispensing system in one. I would not recommend that one. If anything I'd recommend the DuoClear, which is a NAture 2 and a salt water chlorinator in one. Although I think I'd rather have a separate SWG from the Nature 2, like one that I can control remotely such as the Jandy AquaPure system.


Also, the warranty on the decking is for anything from cracks to chips. He said they are the only pool company that offers that kind of warranty.
I am very surprised at that. I just can't see how someone can warranty cracks in North TX. It is bound to happen.


And as for the guarantee of 35 "working days" (which I assume does not count Sat and Sun..)
Well that is 7 weeks, which is a lot more reasonable.


Am I being too gullible?
No, I don't think you're being too gullible. Just make sure you get those references an call them to see how their pool building experience was and how the warranty has been holding up.

[mkamp1515]

400 sqft. of decking is not very much. I am not sure how big your yard is, but get more decking than you think you need if you can. I have 1100 sqft of decking and wish I had more. My back yard is 1/2 acre though. Some stats from my pool and price since I put in mine 1 year ago for comparison.

1100 sqft washed aggregate decking
Free form pool, 3.5ft*5ft*4ft, 20,000 gallons (36 ft long, width varies 24 ft at widest, 16 ft narrowest, I think 100-110 perimeter)
coping is flagstone
20 ft long mossrock waterfall, highest is about 4 ft tall
matching mossrock planter on opposite side of pool
tanning ledge (4 inches deep)
Tahoe Blue Pebble Tec surface (gives a lagoon look)
Jandy LED color lights (2 of them)
2 hp pump for main circulation
1 hp pump for waterfall
Polars 280 cleaner with booster pump
Jandy Aqua Pure Salt System
Price was $31,000

I am sure there has been price increases over the last year. I would certainly entertain multiple companies and multiple pool plans. There is always somethink you wish you did differently.

Good Luck and have a great Memorial Day.

Mike

[Simmons99]

How long has the company been in business? A 15 year warranty doesn't mean anything if they have only been in business for 5 years. Also - I would be weary of gimicky sales promos - a good company shouldn't need those - they are able to get work becuase they have good QUALITY.

Also the Nature 2 system (from what I have read on this forum) basically adds copper to your pool - which can stain it in high doses and give blonde swimmers green hair. (IMHO - I wouldn't care about that)

How many of their customers have you talked to? Ask you sales person where they have done pools (not who) - and drive around to see their installation signs. Go knock on doors. Find out if they have had a alot of warranty call backs, etc.

BTW - $500 is NOTHING to a pool company that is making $10,000 on your pool - also they state that they have never had to pay it - the only time they would have to pay it is if you sued them (which would cost you more than $500 to do).

I don't mean to be a real downer, but you need to look at the facts. They can say what they want, but that doesn't mean that is what you get. Do a lot more homework before you make a decision.

[Simmons99]

Pool prices for comparison (Florida)

I got a 15X13 (3-6'deep) roman style pool
Hot tub with 3' splash over (all raised 6") with 250,000 BTU heater
Sunning ledge (about 7' X4')
Tiled steps & standard tiled water line
Brick pavers deck (27'X40') with an acrylic band around the pool. Raised deck 6" around the hot tub
Screened enclosure (27X40' with a covered roof 8' X40' and gutter system)
Saltwater Chlorine Generator
LED light in the pool w/ remote system
SAM light in the spa
Fountain in the spa (removable)
Exposed aggregate finish.
2hp Hayward C1750 Cartridge filter
Hayward Navigator with seperate vacuum line
one skimmer

Total $52,000

Just for comparision - quotes came in from $47,000-$67,000. The most expensive options were the screen enclosure ($13k) and the brick pavers ($7k)

[santorin]

How long has the company been in business? A 15 year warranty doesn't mean anything if they have only been in business for 5 years. Also - I would be weary of gimicky sales promos - a good company shouldn't need those - they are able to get work becuase they have good QUALITY.

Also the Nature 2 system (from what I have read on this forum) basically adds copper to your pool - which can stain it in high doses and give blonde swimmers green hair. (IMHO - I wouldn't care about that)

How many of their customers have you talked to? Ask you sales person where they have done pools (not who) - and drive around to see their installation signs. Go knock on doors. Find out if they have had a alot of warranty call backs, etc.

BTW - $500 is NOTHING to a pool company that is making $10,000 on your pool - also they state that they have never had to pay it - the only time they would have to pay it is if you sued them (which would cost you more than $500 to do).

I don't mean to be a real downer, but you need to look at the facts. They can say what they want, but that doesn't mean that is what you get. Do a lot more homework before you make a decision.

They've been in business for 60 years. I don't think they are going to go belly up any time soon. They also have a lifetime warranty on the pool itself. I just got an estimate from them tonight. We are going with them due to recommendations from friends and from their BBB scores or whatever you want to call them. :)

[South_Texas_Sun]

I understand Anthony Sylvan is one of the biggest pool builders but there seems to be a few complaints floating around. Try googling or try this:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/anthony_pools.html

Another random thing to watch out for Sandie.........rock charges.

I don't know if you live in an area that has a lot of subterranean rock (and you may not either) All I know is you'd better read the fine print in any Texas contract you sign, because a lot of the PB's charge $60-100 per YARD of rock work to dig your hole. (Then trot out a Bobcat instead of a backhoe)

It's perfectly acceptable to demand a fixed fee for excavation, and I had our PB write it in LONGHAND before I'd sign....

There's an awful lot of ways to cut corners building a pool, and I've been on our crews like "white on rice" while they've been trudging though our project. It's really paid off though, and a lot of the info I've read here has saved us future problems. (i.e. keep reading :)

[CarlD]

Sylvan is national--it's up here in NJ too. That doesn't mean they are better, only that they probably have deep pockets.

I would absolutely NOT waste a nickel on Nature2. First, there's no proof it works, just lots of testimonials--and the company won't publish any research. Second, they add copper and silver to the water, not a good thing. Third, and most importantly, they won't save you any money. The cost of the replacement cartridges ($90 for the cheapest one) buys a LOT of chlorine. If you use $90 worth of bleach (what we recommend) in a season, that's a lot.

As for an in-line chlorinator--don't put too much stock in it. When your pool is new, the chlorinator will be a good thing, because the tablets keep a constant flow of chlorine, add stabilizer, which you will need, and are EXTREMELY acidic. This is good because a curing gunite pool is usually very alkaline. But once your pool is cured, and once your stabilizer (CYA) hits 50ppm, the chlorinator is useless because it CONTINUES to add stabilizer which is now a bad thing, and adds acid, which you shouldn't need. During the curing period, a $10 adjustable floater will do just as well as the chlorinator.

You would be FAR better off to save the cost of both the Nature2 and the chlorinator (or the combined contraption from Nature2) and get a nice Salt Water Generator (SWG) instead. They work, they keep on working over the years, and allow you to pay far less attention to your chlorine levels than us mugs who do it manually.

Finally, when they install your pool, and they fill it with water, they are likely to dump a WHOLE raft of garbage (ie chemicals) in your water all at once. DO NOT LET THEM DO THIS!!!! Either tell them "No Thanks!" (especially if they are charging you for them) or have them leave it with instructions for YOU to add it, then come to us with each item and we will advise you whether it's a "Yes", "No" or "Yes, with changes".

Meanwhile, order your test kit now, and keep it in a cool, dark, dry place until you are ready to use it. Order something like PoolDoc's kit on PoolSolutions.com, Taylor's 2006 kit, or Leslie's Chlorine FAS-DPD Service Test Kit. Or, at least, see if WalMart has the HTH 5-Way drop test kit (not the HTH 6-Way strips) and get that.

Learn to use it on your tap water (what you'll probably fill it with) and that gives you a great baseline.

If they fill it with trucked-in water, test the water before you add anything and get a baseline. Many municipalities have fairly high Total Alkalinity levels so that's why you don't want the builder dumping in a ton of "Alkalinity Raiser" (baking soda to you and me) before it's tested.

[GTakacs]

CarlD, you seem to be against the Nature2 pretty seriously. I am having one installed on my new pool, my co-worker has it on his one with a SWG and he swears by it. He keeps his FC at 0.5 all year long. What do you base your opposition other than hearsay? I am just curious. My pool builder is "throwing in" the Nature 2 so I'm getting it whether I like it or not, but from what my co-worker has told me, I'll like it. I'm also getting a Jandy Purelink PDA with SWG system installed (bought it myself, installing it myself, builder wanted too much $$$ for it).

[CarlD]

CarlD, you seem to be against the Nature2 pretty seriously. I am having one installed on my new pool, my co-worker has it on his one with a SWG and he swears by it. He keeps his FC at 0.5 all year long. What do you base your opposition other than hearsay? I am just curious. My pool builder is "throwing in" the Nature 2 so I'm getting it whether I like it or not, but from what my co-worker has told me, I'll like it. I'm also getting a Jandy Purelink PDA with SWG system installed (bought it myself, installing it myself, builder wanted too much $$$ for it).

I think I stated my reasons for thinking the N2 system is a waste of money pretty clearly in my last post but here we go again:

1) There is no hard evidence it works, and the company doesn't publish any, nor does it publish how the system works. I don't believe in magic. If there was scientific evidence to back up Nature2, they'd be quick to let you know. Also, notice that N2 only claims to be effective against algae, but chlorine protects us against all sorts of contaminants, most importantly fecal matter, especially human fecal matter, the most dangerous contaminant

2) Do the arithmetic...the annual cost of a Nature2 cartridge cannot be justified in the amount of chlorine it saves. You still must use chlorine, and if the N2 works and cuts your chlorine costs in half, it STILL costs you more to use it than it does not to.

For example: The cartridge costs about $90 and you have to replace it every year. Bleach (regular 5.25%) costs about $1.50--$90 buys you 60 gallons. For the Nature2 to BREAK EVEN you would have to be using 120 gallons of bleach a season. Now where I live (in the NE in NJ) then normal swimming season is 3 months--up to 4 months. 4 months is approximately 120 days. I would have to be using a gallon of bleach EVERY SINGLE DAY and cut that in half just to justify the cartridge annual cost. But, in fact, if I use a gallon every other day it's a lot--so that's only 60 gallons at $90-- at my rate of usage the N2 would add 50% to my chemical costs:

The N2 would cost me $90, plus I have to STILL buy half the chlorine I use--30 gallons, which costs $45. Now if I only use chlorine, my seasonal cost is $90. If I use the N2, my seasonal rises to $90(cart) + $45(bleach) for a total of $135! There's no savings at all--and, unless the builder tossed it in, I have to amortize the cost of the system as well.

3) There is solid evidence that running higher chlorine levels to maintain sanitation will not harm you or your children, so the hype about less chemical is BS. Stick to our B-B-B methods and you'll use far less chemicals, and you won't ever need exotic ones.

Since these chemical/mineral systems are all like this, the ONLY one I trust and would use is SWG--Salt Water Generation, which makes chlorine from salt--whose chemical formula is NaCl----Sodium Chloride.

I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in snake oil. I don't believe in testimonials.

[DaBomb650]

Wow CarlD.
I Sold! Well, "un-sold", as the case may be. Good information on the Nature2, thanks for the figures.
We are having a gunite pool installed by Blue Haven here in Edmond Oklahoma. We went with a sand filter (cartrages look like too much work. Have one on my spa and HATE it!) The pool comes with an ozone-ator and a clorinator. I am interested in your B-B-B system and need to do some more reading about it. Thanks for all the info.
;)