Hello new user here

[jhiswin]

I have a pool with high alkalinity (currently 150, was 170), high chlorine (currently 10), normal Ph (7.4). I used a test strip w/ electronic reader.
I want to try the stain removal stickied in the stain forum, but I can't lower the chlorine level so that I can use ascorbic acid. Should I just live with the stains?
I am pretty sure they are metallic, as I left a vitamin C tablet in the pool overnight and it appeared to lift the stains.

Also, I was IP banned on another account called jhjhjh w/ IP *-*-*-* (static). I used a temporary e-mail, because I wasn't sure of the safety of using this website, or if my information (such as e-mail or location) would be picked up by e-mail harvesters. I was also slightly suspicious you guys might just be marketers. Sorry.
I don't know why I was banned. Was it because of the temporary e-mail or was it something in what I posted?
Could you remove the ban please? I promise not to do whatever it is I did.

[PoolDoc]

Why can't you lower the chlorine level?

You can certainly live with the stains if they don't bother you -- they don't affect the health or safety of the pool.

Regarding the other: your registration had several factors in common with registrants who cause problems. If you want me to change things, email me ( poolforum@gmail.com ) the info. But, you'll have to be patient; I don't update the firewall more than 1x per week.

Trust goes both ways -- what I always tell people who are concerned, is "read till you trust us, and if you don't trust us don't register". But I routinely block registrations which go out of their way to be anonymous. Given the problems I've had in the past, there's ZERO chance that that will change.

[jhiswin]

I use 2 floaters with ITS Trichlor (?) tablets in 30k gallon outdoor pool, no cover, DE filter. I took the floaters out 3 days ago, but the chlorine level has stayed at 9-10. There has been full sun too.
After taking out the floaters I've noticed a green hue setting in and translucent specks floating in the water (maybe just coincidence?). So, I'm not hesitant to stop chlorinating.

I read the Best Guess Chlorine Chart. High alkaline means high stabilizer right? Does that mean it is safe for me to use higher levels of chlorine (~10)?

--------------------------------------------------------
Understandable, terms of registration.
-------------------------------------------------------

Oh and do I have to worry about the stains becoming more permanent if I don't deal with it now? I don't mind the stains that much and it will be in use soon, so I can't afford to have too much time tied up in dealing with the metals in the water. So, I'll probably just leave it alone until after that time.

Forgot to mention, it's a vinyl liner pool.

[PoolDoc]

I took the floaters out 3 days ago, but the chlorine level has stayed at 9-10. There has been full sun too.

You do HAVE high stabilizer. BUT, with metals in the water, high chlorine may cause staining. Get polyquat ASAP and use it:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat.html



Oh and do I have to worry about the stains becoming more permanent if I don't deal with it now?

It's less likely on vinyl than concrete, but still possible. BUT, I just had a post from a guy who successfully removed his stains by putting a bottle of Vitamin C tabs in the foot of panty-hose leg, and using it to scrub the stains.

Sounds like a good idea, to me. BUT, you need both polyquat and HEDP in the water when you do so, and then a CuLator after (or during)

And you need good chlorine and CYA testing . . . so get a kit. HTH kit if you need something now, but with high CYA, you need the K2006.

Ben

---------------------------------------------------
+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.

+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16551) )

One caution for the 2012 season: Amazon does not stock the kits directly. So when buying at Amazon, Amato is our current preferred seller. However, they often don't list enough stock to last the whole day, so try order mid-morning. You should expect a delivered cost under $60 for the K2006A and under $95 for the K2006C. If you can't find that, wait a day.

+ Here are links to the kits we recommend (you can check local availability on the HTH kit, using the Walmart link):

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon

[jhiswin]

This is actually the first time we have noticed staining. Our water around here is normally clean/stable, except supposedly a lot of calcium-(something).

We don't normally add much, and maintenance is usually not too complicated.
The past years all we had to do was add chlorine tablets and shock every other week (didn't even have to bother checking levels, they were always okay). Maybe the ITS "Chlorine-Free" shock is causing the stains, that we use in rotation with ITS "super shock"? I think someone else also used some kind of phosphorous removing chemical and "solar pill".

I'm in the process of convincing the other guy to switch to the BBB method, and testing for hardness/stabilizer.

I've got a liquid test kit, but doesn't have calcium/stabilizer tests. I'll try to get the K2006 ASAP.


Just realized posting my IP address publicly is a bad idea. Can you edit it out in my original post?

[PoolDoc]

removed.

Chlorine free shock is almost always a bad idea.

[jhiswin]

I'm going to return as much of the chlorine free shock as I can.

I bought most of the items for the stain removal. Did you ever find out if the Culator can be used in the way you made in that post (soaking it)?

Does the 4ppm Culator actually absorb 4x as much as the 1ppm? Why are there different versions for winter and spring? Their descriptions seem to imply that they absorb different metals?

[PoolDoc]

I think the different sizes DO absorb different total amount of metal; but as best I can tell, the CuLator has ONLY one 'ingredient', so it's going to behave identically regardless. That is, they can change the capacity by adding more, but that's all.

Not sure which "soaking" post you are referring to . . .

[jhiswin]

You mentioned seeing if you coud soak in distilled water for reuse

[PoolDoc]

Ok. I had to Google, to see what you were talking about -- I was referring to the possibility of STORING it over the winter that way.

OK. I just called Periodic, and was told that long term storage of the CuLator product in deionized water (essentially, the same as distilled water) should not result in any deterioration.

Let me be clear: the purpose of storing that way is to avoid it drying out and cracking (some polymers can do that, once hydrated -- I don't know if the CuLator product would do that or not) and to store it over the winter, or between use periods.

Putting it in tap water would result in it picking up whatever metal ions were present in the tap water, and thus 'consuming' a portion of the Culator's capacity.

However, the info from Periodic product suggests you'd be able to buy the 4 ppm CuLator pack, use it for a week whenever you added a potentially metal containing chemical or top-off water, then remove it, and store in in distilled water till you were ready to use it again.

[jhiswin]

Just an update: I think I might have figured out where all the metal came from. Last year someone used an InTheSwim winterizing kit. I looked up the active ingredient for the winter algaecide in the kit, and it uses "Copper sulfate pentahydrate".
It really is a pain how difficult it is to find active ingredients for these products.

I'm going to use the upcoming rainy days to try the stain removal. I'll post my results in a new thread.

[PoolDoc]

It really is a pain how difficult it is to find active ingredients for these products.

Yes, it is. And unfortunately, it's getting worse, not better.

That's one reason I've been so focused this season on posting the Amazon links. It allows me to give people a way to get exactly what they need, with a far smaller chance of going astray, then when we tried to help them find it (whatever *it* might be) in a pool store. Usually, the Amazon prices are pretty good.

And, getting a commission on the sale helps the forum, too. But, I'm trying hard NOT to link things unless it looks like they are a good deal for the users here.

[jhiswin]

The links actually helped a lot, thanks. I don't know if the commission went through (I hope it did), because I had to go between many tabs when I ordered.

I tried the ascorbic acid treatment, but it didn't seem to lift the stains much.

How much I used:
60% Polyquat 1qt, NOW foods Ascorbic acid 3lbs, Kem-Tek HEDP ~1.2 quarts

Used both a vitamin C tablet and a trichlor tab to test. Only the vitamin C seemed to have stain lifted formations where I dropped it.

I switched to recirculate.
After using polyquat my FC level dropped to 0.4, and right now it is at 0.0, so it's not the chlorine either (?).
Alkalinity dropped to 110 after I used HEDP.

I made a mistake of putting in the HEDP before the stains went away (maybe about 10 minutes after ascorbic acid was put in), so that may be what I did wrong? I had to leave right after doing this, and came back much later to check and found the stains were still in the original places.

I used up the 3lb of ascorbic acid I bought, so I will have to wait for a new batch of ascorbic acid before I try again.


I have a question about the CuLator. I bought 2 1ppm CuLator. I noticed that there are 3 round balls in the packet.
I'm wondering how many of these "balls" are in the other CuLators. Maybe this can be used as a metric for how much product is given?


Took a look this morning, stains actually appear to look worse and are more widespread today.
I also notice some stains on the outside of the pool. It looks like I spilled something causing a greenish yellow stain. Could it be the polyquat or the HEDP?


(Edit by moderator: three posts in the queue were merged.)

[PoolDoc]

Regarding the commission, I can see what people buy, but not who buys what (for good reasons -- it would be pretty much of a privacy violation to see WHO bought something), and people have been buying HEDP & ascorbic acid, so one of those could have been you.

Adding the HEDP before or during addition of Vitamin C would NOT hurt; nothing failed on that account.

So, I don't know why the stain removal process failed. There are several possibilities:

1. If there was still chlorine present (even combined chlorine) when you added the ascorbic acid, that would have destroyed ascorbic acid.

2. If there was metal present IN the water, you have not added enough HEDP to carry both the metal present AND the metal you re-dissolved. That, in turn, could result in the re-staining.

3. I've been going through the old Dequest literature that I have from Monsanta (HEDP was sold as Dequest 2010), and calcium can interfere. If you have high calcium in your pool, you would need a LOT more HEDP than otherwise . . . but then you risk a calcium phosphonate colloidal cloud (ie, your pool turns to milk that you can't filter out!).

Until this season, I pretty much thought that high CH / TA water was always low metals water, unless someone added a lot of copper. Apparently, that's not the case.

The balls you feel are inert; they are present to break up any lumps that may form in the granular CuLator material.

If you have any left, add another dose of HEDP; lower your pH to 7.0, run your filter 24/7, and keep the CuLator in the skimmer.

Also, can you give me a complete set of test results, and tell me how you are testing?

I think I may need to revise the process like this:

1. Submit complete K2006 readings with pH, TA, & CH.
2. If TA & CH are very high, consider doing lime softening to lower CH.
3. Otherwise, add HEDP and CuLator. Wait 2(?) weeks, to allow removal of any metals already in the water. During this time, lower TA to 100 or less.
4. After 2 weeks, add polyquat and then sodium thiosulate till an OTO 3 minute zero is achieved.
5. Adjust pH to 7.0 -- if pH needs to be raised, use only borax.
6. Add a double dose of HEDP, with adjustments for calcium.
7. Add ascorbic acid -- brush stains. Add a 2nd dose if stains are not lifted after 4 hours. (Add a 3rd dose? if stains are not lifted after 4 more hours)
8. Place 2nd CuLator in skimmer or in front of return.
9. After 24 hours, re-chlorinate slowly. During this time, add an additional dose of HEDP.
10. Continue to add polyquat every 3 days. Keep chlorine & pH low. Run filter 24/7.
11. Add additional doses of HEDP at first sign of re-appearing stains.

[jhiswin]

I still haven't gotten the K2006, and have been using strips and a simple 3-test reagent kit. I'll make sure to get the K2006 ASAP.

My pH never drops or raises much. I don't know if it's our water or what, but it's always been like this. Even after all the raining and added chemicals, my pH levels have stayed between 7.1-7.4 (it only went down to 7.1 after HEDP). I just chalked it up to good luck.

I've noticed that the stained areas appear "raised" on what looks like calcified deposits of some sort. The non-stained areas look like small gouged out rivers and lakes.

Also, for Borax I noticed you guys don't seem to have good online sources. I want to recommend a website I found if it's okay with you. I think, but am not sure, they offer commissions and new sign up bonuses ($10 off or something, I didn't get to take advantage of it) of some sort if you so desire.

[PoolDoc]

We don't recommend borax online because it's almost always available more cheaply locally. Walmart and many other stores carry it in the detergent section.

But if you know of a source that sells it DELIVERED for under $1 / lb, please post it. We have some users who live in the sticks, and it's cheaper to pay $1/lb for borax than it is to drive 60 miles 1-way to Walmart.