pool newbie with cloudy water

[wackster]

I have a 15' Intex Easy Set, filled with well water (abt 5,000 gal). I used a hose filter (10" Bobby by Hayward) I bought at a local pool store, which did not appear to do any good. I have not had clear water since I filled it, after using ferri-iron tabs (week 1) and metal free (week 3). It's got a model 637 filter pump (900-1,000 gph) with a type A Intex filer.

I use test strips, although I know after reading in the forum that water test is the way to go. Ph, TA, and FAC are all in spec according to the strips. I used muratic acid week 2 to lower TA, and then ph plus to get that back up.

The water is greenish orange and I can't see the bottom of the pool.

I'm running the pump 18 hours/day or more and cleaning the filter daily. I tried vacuuming using the crappy hose attachment, which is ineffective.

Looking for advice get to clear water.

Do I need a better pump? (I will buy the Unicel filters.) What type of vaccum should I use? Should I buy a skimmer for Easy Set? Help!

[aylad]

When you say that pH, TA, and FAC are all in spec according to the strips, that doesn't really tell us anything because the strips just aren't that accurate. It sounds like you have iron in the water, which will need to be filtered out. You have a couple of options there....if you'll log out of the forum, go back to the forum home page, under the second set of threads, and look at the first one there that says "pool chemistry for Intex-type pools", then open that and read the first sticky, called "before you fill your Intex-type pool with well water!". That sticky should answer most of your questions, but if it doesn't, feel free to come back and post them here and we'll try to help.

Welcome to the forum!

[wackster]

Thank for the reply!

I purchased the HTH 6-way test and took readings tonight:
total chlorine - 0
pH - 7.5
TA 210
hardness 370
CA- the dot did not disappear
I also did the soda test and the water was cloudy.

My water looks just like the pic sbrouilette posted (cloudy blue/green) in her post titled "water color problems, ready to give up". I have ordered unicel filters, bought 60% plyquat/algaecide and am hunting down dichlor. (Can I use 6% bleach instead?) I also need a better vac and skimmer, which I'm pursuing.

I'm wondering if the directions provided to sbrouilette by pool doc in the post mentioned would be good for me, too? Help is much appreciated!

[PoolDoc]

Test your FILL water, and report those values ASAP. Start the bucket test for lime softening AND metals on the FILL water.

Before we try to clean up what you've got, I want to know (1) if there are metals in your pool and fill water, and (2) if it would be easier for you to start with fresh water.

Don't use the polyquat, Unicels, etc. until we've worked out the best way to go. Keep an eye on the METALS bucket test; if you see brownish-orange sediment, you'll need to get a bottle of HEDP, as well. But, DO NOT put it in, yet.

Meanwhile, you can use bleach to chlorinate each night. If you aren't brushing up algae, 1/4 gallon of bleach each evening should keep your pool on track, till we work out what to do. If you want to swim, check the water -- if the OTO is yellow, you're good to go.

[wackster]

Thanks, Pool Doc! Here are the fill water measures:
total chlorine - 0
pH - 7.5
TA 340
hardness 360
CA- the dot did not disappear

I started the bucket test with fill water. Fifteen minutes after the bleach, the water was pretty yellow. It's sitting overnight after the borax add.

[PoolDoc]

Iron, calcium and high alkalinity, all in the same water!

Ok. How expensive is it for you to refill?

You'll need polyquat, HEDP, and muriatic acid to start. Having the Unicels would make it easier.

You may want to start a http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16992 -- lime softening bucket test.

It's possible to clean up the pool with polyquat, HEDP and Culator. But it *may* work using lime softening, and if it does, it will be both faster and cheaper.

[Watermom]

When you are testing your fill water, there is no need to run the CYA test. Tap water nor well water either one have any CYA in them.

[PoolDoc]

Missed that; thanks Watermom!

[wackster]

I have a frankenpool! It costs about $250 for a water delivery. Interested in the lime softening idea--I'll look into what I need to do for the lime softening bucket test. I started the bucket test on the fill water already.

[wackster]

Ok, I have the Unicel filters, polyquat and muriatic acid. I'd like to buy HEDP locally. What are the common brands? I also bought a filter/pump vacuum and a skimmer, which is in transit. Pool Doc, would you like me to do a lime softening bucket test before we move forward?

[PoolDoc]

Here are all the brands we've identified as unmixed HEDP -- dilutions range from full strength (60%) down to 1/3 strength. One huge caution; manufacturer's can, and do, replace ingredients with other chemicals or other dilutions without warning.

HEDP:
Jack's Magic Blue Stuff (20% solution)
Jack's Magic Purple Stuff (20% solution)
Jack's Magic Pink Stuff (60% solution)
ProTeam Metal Magic (30% solution)
RamChem Ram Metal Hold ((60% solution? )
Kem-Tek 338-6 Metal & Calcium Eliminator (20% solution)
Haviland Stain & Scale Magic (30% solution? )

We're pretty sure these two products are HEDP, in the dilutions described, as of summer 2012

Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/poolbooks) @ Amazon
20% KemTek HEDP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI22/poolbooks) @ Amazon


And YES, do a lime softening test. I just got feed back from "Old BAT" -- she completed the bucket test and went from CH > 300 ppm, to CH < 40ppm ! She has not done her pool yet, but that's exactly the sort of result we're hoping for. But, keep in mind that the bucket test requires you to vacuum sediment out of your pool. You can do this with a pole, a vac head and a vac hose, by setting up a siphon. But you'll need all those pieces.

[wackster]

Thanks, again! Did you want me to lime test pool or fill water, Pool Doc?

I checked the metal bucket test last night and there is some brown-orange substance both on the bottom of the bucket and floating on the surface. (See attached pic, if it worked right.) http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i329/10_wackster/wackbucket.jpg

[PoolDoc]

Interesting. Those aren't exactly the colors I would have expected.

Do the colors in the photo accurately reflect what you saw? I would have expected a more red color.

Did you do anything different than what's in the metal bucket test instructions?

[wackster]

The colors are close. No, I followed directions: used 4 gal. fill water, added 1/2 cup bleach, mixed and after 15 min. added 1/2 cup borax, mixed, covered and checked in 24 hrs.

Should I do the lime bucket test on fill or pool water?

Thanks.

[wackster]

After two 1/4 gal doses of bleach, the water is much clearer. There's light rust colored sediment on the pool floor. The chlorine level was 5 ppm, too high for swimming today. The skimmer and vac I ordered should be here end of the week.

[PoolDoc]

5 ppm is *NOT* too high to swim; that's bogus stuff that traces back to standards that were established in the '60's, on a purely 'pulled that one out of the air' basis. During the *same* time when "above 3 ppm" was set as "too high to swim", there was NO upper limit on chlorine in drinking water. Some utilities routinely shipped drinking water at 10+ ppm, so there would still be chlorine in the water when it reached the end of their old and corroded water lines!

However, if you still have no CYA, that chlorine will drop by over 1/2 in an hour of full sun!

Read the Best Guess page, linked in my signature, to get a better understanding of this.

[wackster]

Got it, Ben. Thanks for the info. I'm waiting for your direction on next steps with the cloudy pool. HEDP was ordered and vac & skimmer are on the way. I have muruatic acid and polyquat on hand.

[PoolDoc]

If you would, go ahead and complete the pool chart:

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)

I know you did the metal bucket test; but have you done the lime softening test? If we do that, and every settles out nicely, that process will ALSO remove all the metals remaining in the water.

[wackster]

Chart complete, lime test underway.

[wackster]

Vac and skimmer arrived today. I'll be installing the skimmer and vacuuming tomorrow. HEDP will be here Monday. This is a pic of the lime test @ 24 hrs. There's an orange film on the surface and around the rim, but the water below is quote clear. At the bottom I see a very small amount of white residue from the washing soda. What do you think, Pool Doc?

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i329/10_wackster/wacklimetest.jpg

[wackster]

Got the HEDP today. I vacuumed yesterday and unfortunately recirculated the crap at the bottom. The water was clear until then. I have a plan to vac to waste next time, but worry that the fill water will pump the bad stuff back in and I'll face the same predicament...

[Charlie_R]

Here's an idea for your fill water -- As suggested by PoolDoc in a sticky (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?17166-Before-you-fill-your-Intex-type-pool-with-well-water!)-- get a cheap blow-up kiddy splash pool and pretreat your well water before putting it into your main pool.

[PoolDoc]

Did you ever get the Unicel replacement cartridges? The sort of iron precipitate I'm seeing in your buckets should be filterable. If you use the Unicels + polyquat (both an algaecide AND a clarifier) + HEDP each time you fill, you may be able to work out continuous control, with no cloudy or brown periods.

It will probably take some experimentation and testing on your part to get it just right. PLEASE do tell us what works and doesn't, so others can benefit.

And, the mini-pool idea, if you want to try it, will allow you to fill with mostly iron free water. Essentially, you just do a 'bucket' test in a 500 - 1,000 gallon pool, let everything settle, and then hang a small sump pump above the sludge, and let it pump the clear water into your pool. However, rather than adding bleach + soda ash, I'd use bleach + borax, so you don't end up with really high TA in your pool.

[wackster]

Thanks, Doc and Charlie! Doc, I did get Unicel filters--will put them in. What doses of polyquat and HEDP should I use?

I appreciate the help!

[PoolDoc]

Which polyquat and HEDP did you get? (Different brands have different concentrations).

[wackster]

HTH super algaecide (60%) polyquat; 20% HEDP Kem Tek

[PoolDoc]

On your pool, each fluid oz will add 1 ppm polyquat, using the 60% HTH product. A reasonable dose would be 2 fl oz (1/4 cup) every 2 - 3 days.

Add a dose, install the Unicel cartridge, leave your pump running, then stir up the pool, and see if the stuff will filter out.

Hold off on the HEDP - calcium that high makes the HEDP problematic. I working on that. Did you test the CH level & TA levels in the water in in the lime softening bucket? If that went well, (CH>100 ppm), the first step might be to run that on your pool.

[wackster]

TA - stopped at 101 drops; the water was still green

CH - water was more orange than yellow, so I don't know

The water has been sitting for a week.

[PoolDoc]

Did you dechlorinate the sample with sodium thiosulfate prior to running the CH test?

[wackster]

No.

I vacuumed to waste the sediment on the pool floor yesterday, installed the unicel, and added polyquat. I'll let you know how it goes.

Oh, I also got a 1,500 gph Intex pump. Just waiting for the hose adapter...

[wackster]

Clear water! My challenge is to keep the poor clear of leaves and choke cherries, which are dropping from trees in volumes. What a mess. Thank you, Pool Doc!

Should I use anything beyond the polyquat and bleach?

[PoolDoc]

Not sure what all your levels are, but polyquat won't help with leaves and chokecherries. It will keep your pool a bit clearer.

[wackster]

Chlorine 3
pH 7.5
TA 210
Hardness 280

[PoolDoc]

What is your stabilizer level?

[wackster]

Ben, I'm not sure what stabilizer level means.

[Watermom]

Stabilizer is CYA. What he wants to know is what is your CYA level?