Results of Ascorbic Acid Treatment for Stains

[Cookieman]

Began the treatment prescribe on

7/14 - FC=0, PH=7.0, TA = 80 CYA = 45.
-- Used 20 oz of polyquat on 7/12 as FC dropping below minimum on Best Guess Chart
-- Put in 1 - 1.5 lbs of Ascorbic Acid in and allowed to circulate for little over an hour. Most stains gone but added another half lb of ascorbic acid and allowed to circulate another 45 minutes.
-- Then added 2 qts of Kem-Tek Metal Eliminator and put filter back on and put in 1.5 Culator in skimmer


7/15 evening 24 hours later - Added about 1/2 lb Borax and Ph came from 7.0 to 7.2


7/15 same evening - added .75 gal of bleach - FC still tested at 0 after 1 hour, so I added rest of bottle, .75 gal to pool. FC went to 2.0. After 2.0 reading added another .75 gal bleach at 1030 pm.


7/16 700am - FC=3.0, PH= 7.0 - Added 1/2 lb Borax - Ph came up to 7.3/7.4 (Potential Mistake?). Added .75 gal bleach since early morning and FC at 3. No Stains


7/16 1030pm - FC= 2.5 - added 1.5 gal bleach PH=7.2/7.3 No stains


7/17 FC=6.0 (Think this was my problem) PH = 7.0- Some staining coming back. We were having rain showers each afternoon for last 2 days. Added 1 qt. of Jack's Pink Stuff HEDP.


7/18 1115A - FC=3.5, PH=7.1, TA=50 (Added 1/2 lb baking soda knowing that would also bring up PH a little). Rained that afternoon. Staining increasing.


7/19 - FC=2.0, PH=7.3 TA=60 Staining much worse. Nothing added due to increased staining and out of everything except trichlor tabs


7/20 830am - FC=1.0, PH 7.4 Staining continuing to get worse. No algeacide left so added 2 tabs floatie and 1 in skimmer that did not have Culator in it.


7/21 - 1030am - FC=1.5, PH= 7.2/7.3 Added 2 more tabs and getting more bleach today. Staining worse now than when I started.


My take - Did not have enough HEDP nor Polyquat. Kem-Tek and Jack's dosage called for 2.5 qts for 26,000 gal and I evidently needed more. FC going from 2.5 to 6.0 was too fast - again was low on the Polyquat, and did not want to go Pool store - Amazon is good, but would have been days to order more.

Thoughts / suggestions welcome - I have to try again - I can't stand the stains!! Still have no idea of source - water here is soft and heater is bypassed. Thanks

[mbar]

I think you probably didn't have enough HEDP in the water for all of the metal, by taking your ph up to 7.3 and your bleach up to 6 it caused the metals to fall out. You probably needed more HEDP, I usually keep the ph on the low side - about 7.0 to 7.2. I have been getting a lot of staining this year even with the culator. I think it is because this year I did not have my pool at the saturation point to have the calcium precipitate out. It seems if when you do the stain treatment, and your water gets cloudy, the metals seem to get filtered out with the calcium precipitate. It is just an observation right now. I am thinking of experimenting by doing this, but I am getting company and don't want a cloudy pool right now. I have been adding a little ascorbic acid and more HEDP when I see the stains start to come back. If you put about 2 cups around the perimeter of the pool, and let the pump on recirculate overnight it should lighten the stains. It will use up more chlorine than average, but it won't be enough to mess with your water balance too much. Make sure you use polyquat and keep your chlorine at the low end of the best guess chart. Take the tabs out when you use bleach. Make sure the tabs don't have anything else added - a lot of tabs do now. It might be where you are getting your metals. I know it is really frustrating, I have dealt with stains for the past 11 years. I used to try to figure out where the metals were coming from, but now I just deal with the stains when they come. I always keep some ascorbic acid and HEDP on hand. I know how you feel, I hate stains too!

[Watermom]

I have to tell you all ----- I have seen Marie's pool in person and it was beautiful! Not a stain in sight!

[mbar]

Thanks! I have learned what works in my pool, you will too.

[JimK]

I'm also going to guess not enough HEDP. Some years ago (around 2006?), before I was aware of this site, I had staining issues on my steps and vinyl liner. My pool store suggested using ascorbic acid to remove the stains then use Jack's Magic Purple Stuff to prevent them from coming back. They told me the metals probably came from the small amount of impurities in the pool salt (I'm not sure of this). I also contacted Jack's Magic also for guidence and info. Jack's recommends you keep HEDP at a certain level to prevent staining, so I ordered a sequest test kit so I would know how much I had in my pool.

The ascorbic acid worked well to remove the stains so I started adding HEDP and testing the sequest levels. Apparently the metal levels were quite high as I kept having to add more HEDP to maintain the recommended levels. Jack's said to keep adding the HEDP until the levels stabilized in the recommended range. I think I went through 1 or 2 cases (!) of HEDP before the levels finally stabilized. Since then I've been adding a maintenance dose each week.

Fortunately the stains did not return during the initial treatment and I've not had any stains since.

Earlier this year I had asked the question about whether or not I still needed to keep adding the maintenance dose of HEDP (Jack's told me their product would allow the metals to be filtered out, but information here seems to indicate that HEDP just keeps the metals in suspension). Ben had me do a bucket test to see if I still had metals, and it appears I do not (where did they go?). So the past month or two I've only been adding half as much HEDP and so far no staining. I may reduce the amount again and see what happens (or not, I really don't want to deal with stains again!).

Hope something in this story is helpful to you.

[PoolDoc]

Just a note to all:

If you suspect you have a CONTINUING source of metal in your pool -- from well water, antique and rusting pool pipes, a deteriorating heater, utility water that contains iron, etc -- you may want to use BOTH a CuLator PLUS small doses of HEDP, every time you fill.

Peroidic products want's you to replace the CuLator monthly. However, based on their patent info, and info on their site, the product should work indefinitely IF:
1. It's not fouled with goop (thus, we recommend putting it UNDER a skimmer sock!)
2. It's not discolored.

To the extent the CuLator works at all -- and we think it does -- you should be able to put a CuLator bag in your skimmer in April and have it last till September, as long as it's neither fouled not strongly covered. The carrier beads might fail in water eventually, though I doubt it, but you might want to replace the CuLator annually, unless you are willing to take a chance.

BUT, you MUST remember that the CuLator ONLY works when the metal is soluble. So, when you add water, add a little HEDP, and try to do it when the chlorine is a bit low. Do NOT add water on top of skimmer tabsl.

Now, this is confusing: you can use skimmer tabs to REMOVE metals, OR you can use the CuLator to do so. But these (tabs vs CuLator) methods are 100% incompatible. Skimmer tabs tend to take metals OUT of solution, upstream of the filter, so they can be filtered. CuLator units remove metals ONLY when they ARE in solution. CuLator can / should be used WITH HEDP; skimmer tabs are likely to fail when HEDP is used.

BUT . . . skimmer tabs are chancy -- you hope the stains / precipitation will come out on the filter, but it CAN come out on the pool, instead.

This is a fairly difficult topic; I hope I've been as clear as is possible.

[Cookieman]

Thank you mbar, watermom, JimK and Ben for the helpful advice from experience. Please check to make sure my summary from all is accurate. Outside of bringing ph/chlorine levels up too high too fast, I did not add enough HEDP, and should not have used to trichor tabs ( in floatie and skimmer opposite of Culator)for chlorine source while using Culator. Stains have continued to darken while I am waiting on another batch of HEDP, Algeacide, and ascorbic acid, so, more questions: Are the skimmer tabs Ben refers to chlorine tabs or tabs for removing metals? The dosage on the KemTek HEDP for my pool is about 2 1/2 quarts per dose. I only ordered 2 doses, but sounds like I need more. How much should I be adding and how often - full dose each time I see stains after AA treatment? Should I buy sequestering test kit to take guesswork out like JimK? Once stabilized, what is the maintenance dose? By the way, how many quarts of HEDP are in a case?! Sounds like I am in same boat as JimK, and need a case or or two on hand for the near future. I also ordered a 4.5 Culator thinking the 1.0 was not enough - should I return it and continue with the 1.0? Not sure if it is working. Is still clean, but last time I cleaned basket, it seemed to have a clear gel on outside of the sack. Thanks for the help.

[PoolDoc]

Cookieman,

Last night, I dug out the old Monsanto Dequest 2010 -- HEDP -- technical literature I have, and have begun wading through it. Give me a day or two to re-read it, and think about the implications for pool use and dosing. One key element I'm not sure I'd ever noticed before is that high calcium reduces the effectiveness of HEDP. But test conditions were focused on boiler and cooling tower treatment, rather than pool use, so I need to check with Chem_Geek. And, I'm not sure he's ever seen this literature.

[JimK]

Thank you mbar, watermom, JimK and Ben for the helpful advice from experience. Please check to make sure my summary from all is accurate. Outside of bringing ph/chlorine levels up too high too fast, I did not add enough HEDP, and should not have used to trichor tabs ( in floatie and skimmer opposite of Culator)for chlorine source while using Culator. Stains have continued to darken while I am waiting on another batch of HEDP, Algeacide, and ascorbic acid, so, more questions: Are the skimmer tabs Ben refers to chlorine tabs or tabs for removing metals? The dosage on the KemTek HEDP for my pool is about 2 1/2 quarts per dose. I only ordered 2 doses, but sounds like I need more. How much should I be adding and how often - full dose each time I see stains after AA treatment? Should I buy sequestering test kit to take guesswork out like JimK? Once stabilized, what is the maintenance dose? By the way, how many quarts of HEDP are in a case?! Sounds like I am in same boat as JimK, and need a case or or two on hand for the near future. I also ordered a 4.5 Culator thinking the 1.0 was not enough - should I return it and continue with the 1.0? Not sure if it is working. Is still clean, but last time I cleaned basket, it seemed to have a clear gel on outside of the sack. Thanks for the help.

The Jack's Magic Purple Stuff has 12 quarts in a case. The maintenance dose for this product is 6 oz per 10k gal once a week. As I mentioned, since the bucket test Ben suggested was negative for metals, I've reduced the maintenance dose by half (3oz per 10k gal) and so far no staining has returned. I should be able to stop using it, but at least right now I feel better having that bit of insurance.

I noticed in the information posted about metal staining there is no mention of pool salt (high purity) being a possible source. Was I misinformed when I was told by my pool store that it could be a source of metals?

[PoolDoc]

I noticed in the information posted about metal staining there is no mention of pool salt (high purity) being a possible source. Was I misinformed when I was told by my pool store that it could be a source of metals?

I gather that salt from some sources introduces iron into pool water, and it wouldn't take much iron, per bag, to have a problem by the time you add 10 bags.

I guess a prudent, low risk, step would be to add a small dose of HEDP along with any major dose of salt, and to keep a Culator in the skimmer (under a skimmer sock) for a week or so after adding salt.

[JimK]

I gather that salt from some sources introduces iron into pool water, and it wouldn't take much iron, per bag, to have a problem by the time you add 10 bags.

I guess a prudent, low risk, step would be to add a small dose of HEDP along with any major dose of salt, and to keep a Culator in the skimmer (under a skimmer sock) for a week or so after adding salt.

Thanks Ben.

It looks like my lower dose of HEDP is working, so I'll re-evaluate the cost of just maintaining a lower level of HEDP vs. only adding HEDP when adding salt plus the cost of the Culator + skimmer socks (I have questions about these which I'll post in a new thread as to not hijack this thread).

[Cookieman]

I tried process again putting in the Ascorbic Acid and HEDP last Monday, 7/31. Put in more HEDP - double dose. Put in 4.5 Culator. Have kept PH at 7.0 all week. No stains, but the cloudiness that began on Wednesday has gotten only slightly better - can barely see drain. My FC goes between 0 and .5. I have only been adding no more than 1-1.5 gal 1-2 times per day for fear of raising too fast or putting in too much at one time and producing stains. Is it ok to add more bleach at a quicker pace? Using Poyquat to prevent the algae while FC low. Will cloudiness eventually clear on its own or do I need to take action? Filter running 24/7. Also put in a maint dose of HEDP today - 1 week after initial dose.

[PoolDoc]

Do you know what your calcium hardness levels were, before you started this process? What are they, now?

[Cookieman]

80 before procedure and 80 now. Never could get sample to turn red - only purple. Took 8 drops to get it to turn blue.

[PoolDoc]

Took 8 drops to get it to turn blue.

Watch this video, and retest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpS--VsNrY&feature=youtu.be

The rest of the videos are here: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?17157

[Cookieman]

Video was on testing TA. I have no issues with TA test and as of a few days ago it was 60. I have not tried to move it up much for fear of moving PH up from 7.0 while trying to get chlorine up and water balanced. The calcium hardness test was the one in which I could not get to turn red ( kit says it will turn red if calcium hardness present) after adding the 5 drops of R0011. The 80/80 represents the calcium hardness - 8 drops of R0012 to turn sample from purple to blue.

[PoolDoc]

Sorry; watch the CH interferences video.

I'm running into a sort of Catch-22 situation with HEDP and calcium. HEDP also can bind with calcium, and become unavailable for other 'work'. But you can't just increase the HEDP dose, since high enough levels will precipitate colloidal calcium phosphonate that is very difficult to filter.

We need to know what your CH levels are.

[Cookieman]

CH is 90
I cannot get to minimum FC level of 3.0 without stains returning. I added the HEDP each time stains began to return (2.5 qts), but no help. So I sprinkle a few ounces (by volume) of ascorbic acid to keep them from getting too bad. Since the second attempt at the stains began on July 31, I have used 12 qts of HEDP ( Kem Tek or Jacks Pink Stuff), and 18 gallons of bleach. I have added bleach slowly with no one time add exceeding 1 gallon (only when FC=0). Most bleach additions are 1/2 gallon a day or two times per day. Water is clear - cloudiness cleared up within 4 days or so. Stains come back every 3-4 days as FC approached 3.0 or higher. HEDP is not cheap at quantities I am have used - need to try something different- maybe some fill dirt and a dump truck.......LOL!!

[JimK]

.... HEDP is not cheap at quantities I am have used - need to try something different- maybe some fill dirt and a dump truck.......LOL!!

Yeah, I probably spent $500+ when dealing with my stain problem.

[PoolDoc]

No stains, but the cloudiness that began on Wednesday has gotten only slightly better - can barely see drain.


Water is clear - cloudiness cleared up within 4 days or so.

Cookieman, can you tell me what triggered the cloudiness, or what event immediately preceded the cloudiness?

----

Also, I'd overlooked your CH readings; 80 - 90 CH would NOT be a problem with HEDP.

Here's what I've begun to wonder. Is it possible that the stains have penetrated fairly deeply into your plaster, and that the AA is de-colorizing them, but that the souble mix is not actually being removed from the plaster?

If that's the case, you can test in two ways.

FIRST: take some chlorine and place it directly on an area where the stains recur, but that is presently clear of stains. If the stains are re-occurring from metal in the water, the physical presence of the chlorine will prevent that. But if the stains are from metal IN the plaster, the chlorine tab should pretty quickly cause those stains to re-appear. If you can get a cal hypo tab or bag of shock that would be preferable. Trichlor may be acidic enough to avoid re-forming the stain, in spite of the high chlorine level. Regardless of type of chlorine, do not leave it sitting on the plaster too long.

SECOND: if the problem is a soluble copper mix, you should be able to wash it out. If you can, while the chlorine is low, and the HEDP high, re-aim a return eyeball to direct a stream of water toward a location where the stains recur. After 24 hours or so, raise the chlorine level, and see if they re-appear.

Finally, if you are not already doing so, run your pump 24/7.

[Cookieman]

Pool has a vinyl liner with fiberglass steps, so there is no plaster in the pool. Pump has been running 24/7 since I first attempted the AA method in mid July. The steps are the first place I notice any stain reappearance, and I do have a return directed to the steps mostly to move leaves toward the skimmer.

I believe the cloudiness originally began with the double dose of the HEDP after AA cleared the stains. I had gotten feedback that I may not have used enough HEDP on the first try. Cloudiness cleared in about 4 days. Water clarity now is very good. Still keeping ph low at 7.0.

[PoolDoc]

Sorry about the plaster mistake.

1. Do you know which brand HEDP you added, and how much you put in, when the cloudiness occurred?

2. Can you put a handful of chlorine powder on the steps, and see if that forces a stain re-appearance?

[Cookieman]

I used 5 quarts of the Kem-Tek Metal Eliminator from Amazon the procedure recommended. Normal dose per bottle instructions is 2.5 qts. This was only time any of the the HEDP products produced any cloudiness, but other additions have been recommended dose or maintenance dose. I have also used Jack's Magic Pink Stuff - dosage is same as KemTek.

I can try this, but will have to find the chorine powder. Get this as Pool Store? Also been thinking about opening up the 1.0 PPM Culator that has been in skimmer for a month to see if ball color will indicate what metal it may be picking up. Still have the 4.5 in there from a couple of weeks ago. These don't seem to be doing much for me. Thoughts?

[PoolDoc]

I have also used Jack's Magic Pink Stuff - dosage is same as KemTek.

That's very puzzling to me. None of the products actually list the % HEDP, but the Pink Stuff has a specific gravity that corresponds to 60% HEDP, and the KemTek product has a specific gravity that corresponds to 20% HEDP. I'm going to need to do some testing of those directly, but I'll wait till next spring, since they can change formulation without notice.


I can try this, but will have to find the chorine powder. Get this as Pool Store?



Also been thinking about opening up the 1.0 PPM Culator that has been in skimmer for a month to see if ball color will indicate what metal it may be picking up. Still have the 4.5 in there from a couple of weeks ago. These don't seem to be doing much for me.

Don't open them; you can see color through the bag when they are wet. If they aren't doing anything, and you are circulating 24/7, that pretty definitively indicates there are not metals in the water.

Of course the trick is to get the stains dissolved and INTO the water, where the CuLator can grab the metal. It sounds like in your case, the stains may have dissolved, but never migrated into the water. That's not an outcome I'd have expected.

It would be possible to try using ascorbic acid, muriatic acid, and STMP (a phosphate detergent), to lower the pH, dissolve the metals and get them INTO the pool water. But, you'd end up with some ferocious phosphate levels later, and I'm not sure how much that would increase your pool's tendency to get algae. PLUS, I'm not sure how well it would work.

You could try it on a spot basis.

Another possibility, especially since the stains are on your steps, would be to actually scrub a spot on the steps with a wash rag saturated in an AA solution. It's possible that that approach would actually end up with the metals IN the pool water.

. . . As you can tell, I don't know!

Changing direction a bit, I don't know if you are in the market for a waterproof sport camera, but if you are, I'd love it if you got one, took pictures, and posted them. I've got this camera on order:

Pentax Optio WG-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Pentax-Optio-WG-2-Digital-Camera/dp/B0078KP0SM/)
but haven't tested it myself yet. However it's supposed to do especially well with macro photos, since it has a built in LED ring light. Here are some reviews:
2012: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-6501_7-57428068-95/
2011: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q311waterproofcompactgrouptest

So . . . if you think you might be getting a camera like that anytime soon, I love to encourage you to get it before you close your pool, and take pictures.

[Cookieman]

Sorry for the delay responding, but had a lot going on lately. Looks like a nice camera, but I am going to invest in determining what will work on my staining problems. Thanks anyway.

[mbar]

Did you try to use a magic eraser? If the stains are only on the steps you might want to try one just to see if the stain is really on the fiberglass or just lying on top of the fiberglass. I also noticed one time when I had some stains and my ph was high, I added muriatic acid by the stain and it disappeared. You may just have to run your pool at a lower ph. You just don't want to go under 7.0. It just seems strange to me that the stains are only on the steps.

[Cookieman]

I have kept the ph low - 7.0 - 7.1 since trying the ascorbic acid treatment the second time. I did try the magic eraser on the steps one time when level got low enough. Some came off, but very difficult. I had an interesting conversation with a technician at JacksMagic. Filled her in on issue and gave her my numbers. When she heard calcium was only 90, she said Jack's products need calcium levels of 200-400 to work best as it gives it something for the metal to bind to. First I had heard of that. She believed that is why even double dosing did not sequester all the metal. I asked her about the sequestering test kit (JimK used one to determine if he had enough HEDP in his pool), but she did not try to sell it to me, but recommeded trying to raise calcium level first. Any thoughts? Any chorine now higher than 3.0 -3.5 makes the staining worse. Just been adding small amounts of AA to keep stains at bay temporarily until I can find out how to make the HEDP work. If the calcium addition sounds reasonable to the forum experts, where is best place to purchase it or brand (if it matters). Will calcium addition affect PH?

[JimK]

I have kept the ph low - 7.0 - 7.1 since trying the ascorbic acid treatment the second time. I did try the magic eraser on the steps one time when level got low enough. Some came off, but very difficult. I had an interesting conversation with a technician at JacksMagic. Filled her in on issue and gave her my numbers. When she heard calcium was only 90, she said Jack's products need calcium levels of 200-400 to work best as it gives it something for the metal to bind to. First I had heard of that. She believed that is why even double dosing did not sequester all the metal. I asked her about the sequestering test kit (JimK used one to determine if he had enough HEDP in his pool), but she did not try to sell it to me, but recommeded trying to raise calcium level first. Any thoughts? Any chorine now higher than 3.0 -3.5 makes the staining worse. Just been adding small amounts of AA to keep stains at bay temporarily until I can find out how to make the HEDP work. If the calcium addition sounds reasonable to the forum experts, where is best place to purchase it or brand (if it matters). Will calcium addition affect PH?

Interesting. When I was dealing with my metal staining issues I contacted Jack's Magic a few times and don't remember him asking about my calcium level, which usually checks out at 200-250 (but then again that was several years ago, so I'm not sure).

[mbar]

This is only from my experience, I do not have a chemistry degree. One thing I noticed is when the pool gets milky white after the ascorbic acid treatment the stains don't tend to come back. I think it is when the calcium binds with the HEDP and then it turns the pool milky. It does filter out eventually, which is why I think that the stains don't come back - the metals are filtered out with the mess. I know that I have had to use a lot of ascorbic acid this year, and I never had the milky mess. I also did not have my calcium any higher than 250, so maybe I did not saturate the water enough, and my calcium didn't drop much. Other years my calcium dropped about 150ppms. I don't know which is worse, or more expensive. I usually use a floccing agent when I get the milky water (after about a day). So that is expensive, the calcium is expensive, and the HEDP is expensive. It is your call, but if the stains are only on the steps I would just put some ascorbic acid in a sock and rub it on the steps. I am just wondering if it is only on the steps, or maybe you don't see the stains on the liner. Is your water blue, or does it have a greenish tint to it? I have a white fiberglass pool, and when I have staining it turns the pool yellow, so blue and yellow make green - which gives my water a slight green tint. It isn't very noticeable, but since I am a stain nazi I can pick it out right away.

[PoolDoc]

When she heard calcium was only 90, she said Jack's products need calcium levels of 200-400 to work best as it gives it something for the metal to bind to. First I had heard of that. She believed that is why even double dosing did not sequester all the metal. . . . . Will calcium addition affect PH?

Last first: adding calcium (chloride) will not affect the pH much, if at all.

Regarding the "calcium giving the metal something to bind to" . . . She may be referring to something real, but not as stated. Calcium is ALSO a metal, and you can't bind iron to another metal in pool water. That is, you're not going to form something like ferric calcium.

BUT, I know from my own experience that having calcium carbonate -- marble dust, plaster dust, or cal hypo residue -- DOES collect metal out of the water. Essentially, you end up staining the dust, instead of the pool.

The whole "HEDP needs calcium" to work doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't really fit with the old Monsanto Dequest manuals I have, but then I don't understand chelation chemistry at any fundamental level. So, again, it's possible she's referring to something real, but with a slightly bogus explanation



One thing I noticed is when the pool gets milky white after the ascorbic acid treatment the stains don't tend to come back. I think it is when the calcium binds with the HEDP and then it turns the pool milky.

That's interesting, Marie, but I have no idea why that would be happening. I'm going to ask Chem_Geek to read through your's and Cookieman's posts and this thread, and see if he has any possible analytical explanation of what might be going on. It's a whole lot easier to make good recommendations, when you understand what's happening. . . and why!

[JimK]

.....BUT, I know from my own experience that having calcium carbonate -- marble dust, plaster dust, or cal hypo residue -- DOES collect metal out of the water. Essentially, you end up staining the dust, instead of the pool.

.....

I wonder if that's where the metal in my pool went (recent bucket test revealed no metals). Up until this season (when I learned here only to shock when needed; ie cloudy, CC present, algae problem) I was "shocking" about every 2 weeks with cal hypo (2# of 68% each time). Each time the water would get cloudy, but clear by morning (I alway shock in the evening). Perhaps this was "grabbing" the metals so they could be filtered out?

[Cookieman]

To answer Marie's question on stains just on steps - the stains show up first (better) on steps because they are white. If left untreated, stains also appear on vinyl, skimmers, and even navigator. How do I raise the calcium hardness without going to pool store? Is it worth a try to get it to maybe 200. Would any of you recommend that before trying more HEDP or just up the amount of HEDP after ascorbic acid. I have been keeping FC low 2.0-3.5, but have started to raise my PH as it has been at 7.0 for nearly a month now trying this treatment. Going to start bucket test tomorrow. Thanks

[Cookieman]

On second thought, probably don't need bucket test at this point since I know meta is in water. Wouldn't bucket test be more appropriate after I treat again with HEDP product?

[Cookieman]

From Marie's and JimK's experience may be something to the calcium comment from JacksMagic, even though hard to explain. Time to order more HEDP - any preferences between KemTek vs. Pink Stuff? KemTek on sale on Amazon, but PinkStuff worked for JimK. Where do you get calcium chloride? Is that the product Pool Stores sell as Calcium Hardness Increaser - if I decide to try to up CH to around 200. Thanks for any thoughts or comments.

[JimK]

From Marie's and JimK's experience may be something to the calcium comment from JacksMagic, even though hard to explain. Time to order more HEDP - any preferences between KemTek vs. Pink Stuff? KemTek on sale on Amazon, but PinkStuff worked for JimK. Where do you get calcium chloride? Is that the product Pool Stores sell as Calcium Hardness Increaser - if I decide to try to up CH to around 200. Thanks for any thoughts or comments.

Just for clarity, I've never tried the Pink Stuff. I use the Purple Stuff which is formulated for salt pools (whatever that means).

When I was adding calcium, I bought it at the local pool store. I pretty sure it was refered to as Calcium Hardness Increaser.

[PoolDoc]

The Pink Stuff is 60% HEDP; the KemTek is only 20%.

[JimK]

The Pink Stuff is 60% HEDP; the KemTek is only 20%.

Is there anything you can think of that would make the Purple Stuff better for salt pools, like Jack's Magic states, than the Pink Stuff? On the surface it seems like at triple the concentration the Pink Stuff is a better value.

[PoolDoc]

It's possible that the "Purple Stuff" has some significant ingredient in it that's low enough in toxicity so that it doesn't have to be listed on the MSDS. The way the MSDS is written, strongly suggests that the "Purple Stuff" is nothing but a 20% solution of HEDP in water.

[Cookieman]

When using the HEDP ( Jacks Pink Stuff) after AA treatment, water gets cloudy - I assume because it binds the metal in the water - does this cloudiness indicate there is metal in the water? Or, would water become cloudy using HEDP if no metal present? Trying to make sure I get enough in it before adding back chlorine. Cloudiness begins to clear after a day or so on its own.