Newbie needs help. Need a Plan Of Attack To Get This Pool Open

[NullQwerty]

Hi folks,

So, I've been making a few posts on my individual problems here and there, but I need overall guidance here for my vinyl inground pool.

My pool is really dirty. I'm a new pool owner, so I don't know how bad it is in comparison to other pools at the beginning of the season, but the pool water is a dark dark green and you can't see more than 1 foot down. If you take the water out (like you fill up a cup) then it looks clear, but the pool itself looks damn dirty.

So, my problem is, I haven't been able to add any shock to the pool because the DE filter's pressure builds up to the point that it needs backwashing and a drain (20+ PSI) within a 1/2 hour - 1 hour. Much quicker though if I vacuum the pool. Technically I'm supposed to backwash at 10 PSI. And I can't vacuum to drain because I don't have a seperation tank or waste line.

So, I can't shock the pool because I can't backwash every 1/2 hour for 24 hours straight and I can't just let the shock sit there without the pump running (right?). I can't vacuum because the filter needs a backwash within minutes. I can't just let the filter run on it's own because it needs a backwash in < 1 hour. And I can't vacuum to drain because I don't have a seperation tank or waste line.

I've already gone through 50 lbs of DE. Does anyone have any advice? Is there chemicals I could put in which will clear things up that don't require the pump to be running (despite having a vinyl pool)?

Thanks so much. You guys have been invaluable!

[mwsmith2]

Well, step number one is to give us your test results...hopefully from your own drops-based kit. Avoid test stips, but you probably already know this. :D

Looking at the water in a cup is not a good comparison. You're looking through 4" of water. It's got to be really funky to not be able to see through that. Looking through 5' of it is where you see the funk.

You need to get your Cl up to the 15 ppm range. You didn't mention the size of your pool, so I can't give you a starting number. However, I can tell you that the only thing that is going to solve your problem is Cl, and lots of it. Do you have a recirc setting on your pump? That may help getting the Cl distributed about. Once the algae is killed off, it won't plug your filter as fast. Sounds odd, but it's true.

Worst case you can dilute the bleach 50% and cast it out in a bucket to disperse it over the surface. That way you shouldn't damage your liner, and you can start killing off the algae so you can clear the pool.

Michael

[NullQwerty]

That would be great if I can add chemicals without needing the pump on. Unfortunately I don't have that circulate option on my filter (Hayward EC-65 DE filter).

I got some test results from the pool store a few days ago before doing all that I've done, but I imagine the samplings are still about the same??? I'll be home late tonight and will post them then. The pool store guy told me that my results were pretty typical for when opening the pool for the summer. I can also get new readings tomorrow evening.

Oh and one thing I forgot to mention was that my grids were cleaned as part of the Winterizing process.

Thanks again!

[waste]

Null, hi again, your EC65 doesn't have grids, you've got 'fingers' (little tubes to collect the DE on) and you can't backwash because you don't have a 'multiport'. I'm going to end this here, for now while I look up a couple of posts to direct you to, I'll either 'edit' this post or do another when I get the linking info I need.
EDIT* Here's the links (fingers crossed) 317, which is a discussion of EC filters. And here (hopefully) is how to vac to waste (ie bypass a multiportless filter) 1612. Hopefully you'll be able to cull some useful info from them :)

[NullQwerty]

Hey...I'm Sorry...My terminology may be off...adjust for the newbie factor ;) . What I meant was that during the winterizing process, the filter was opened up and cleaned. I called it Grids, but it may be fingers. Also I thought it was called backwashing what I'm doing, but maybe I'm wrong. When I say backwash, I mean I push the handle at the top down slowly and then up quickly 6-8 times which removes the DE (the filter manual calls that process 'bumping'). Then I open the drain valve and let the water and DE drain out. I then turn on the pump to further clean it and get the gunck out. I then close the drain valve, start her back up, and then add more DE.

The size of my pool is about 36 feet by about 18 feet.

My readings from the other day are here. Again, no chemicals have been added since this was taken:
Saturation Index: -0.7
TDS: 500
CYA: 70
Tot Chlorine: 0.3
Free Chlorine: 0.3
pH: 8.2
Demand Drops: 2
Total Alkalinity: 36
Adj. Total Alk.: 15
Total Hardness: 82

What do you guys think? Anything I can safely do without turning on the pump?

Thanks guys!

Waste: My problem with vacuuming to waste is that I don't have a waste line, so where do I put all the outcoming water? I imagine it would kill my lawn, no?

[mwsmith2]

Well, I can tell you this: if you don't get any Cl in there, it's not going to change. Do what I posted earlier, at least brownian motion and natural convection will disperse the Cl and start doing some good.

If you aren't going to put anything in the pool, I don't think there's much else we can do to help.

Michael

[NullQwerty]

Sounds good. I'll dilute the chlorine and spread around the pool. So should I put as much chlorine as the BleachCalc program reccommends, or will that be too much without circulation running?

Edit: I see...I need to keep adding until I get the chlorine levels up to 15 ppm, regardless of whether circulation is running or not.

[NullQwerty]

Actually, a friend of mine just had a great idea. I could drop a hand pump (like you would use to get water out of your basement) in the shallow end of the pool.

That should get some circulation going. I'll give it a shot as well (unless someone has had a bad experience with this).

[bbb]

NullQwerty, did you see my response to your question in the pool equipment thread? by the way, please just continue in one thread - it's hard to keep track when you have multiple threads going. You really should get more DE and start attacking with lots of bleach. You also really really need a good test kit right away - either the PS234 kit or a drops based kit at Wal-Mart or a pool store. See this thread (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1180) for some inspiration, and read away at this site and www.poolsolutions.com.

The good people on this forum can give you a plan of attack, but you need to provide good info from the front lines (in other words, results from doing your own pool water testing from a drops-based kit) in order for us armchair generals to guide you to get swimming quickly!

ps - I think the hand pump is kind of a waste of time. An electric pool cover type pump, with the hose still in the pool, would be ok, but why bother? Best to just buy some more DE right away, and wait longer between backwashings. Most of all, get that chlorine in the pool!

[NullQwerty]

Ok...It's got chemicals in it. I added 5 gallons of Chlorine shock to the pool and at the suggestion of the pool store guy, I have three 3" chlorine tablets in floaters. I did this a few hours ago.

I went out and bought the drop based kit from Walmart (but will order the one from this site soon). I will take new readings in the morning and post them here. I'd take them tonight, but I imagine having added the chemicals so recently I wouldn't get an accurate reponse? If I'm wrong, tell me and I'll post readings tonight.

bbb...Hey, Got your response in the other thread and responded to it. Sorry...I will consolidate to just this thread going forward.

[NullQwerty]

Ok...Things are going good. This morning I woke up and the pool 10X better. Still green, but a much lighter green and there was actually some blue. The filter actually ran 2-3 hours without needing a backwash.

I threw in another gallon of the Chlorine shock. I then opened up the filter and found a bunch of DE (around 1" thick) dispersed at the top of the filter fingers. So I cleaned that out and reattached. The pressure after restarting was around 10 which I haven't seen in quite a while.

I tried vacuuming, but that caused it to need a backwash within minutes.

So, I took a water sample to the pool store (about 2-3 hours after adding that last gallon of chlorine shock). My results were:
Saturation Index: -0.1
TDS: 600
Tot Chlorine: 1.5
Free Chlorine: 1.5
pH: 8.4
Demand Drops: 3
Total Alkalinity: 42
Adj. Total Alk.: 42
Total Hardness: 79

So, at the suggestion of the pool guy, I added 45 lbs of Alkalinity increaser and 2 bags of the granular Super Sockit chlorine shock. Then in 2 hours I will add 6 lbs of PH Minus. Then, in the evening I do 2 more bags of the granular Super Sockit chlorine shock. All while I still have the three 3" chlorine tablets floating around.

After adding what I've added so far, I brushed the floors as best I could. That must have stirred up some of the remaining algae because the pressure builds up within 1 hour again, but I'm assuming tomorrow it will last longer. If not, and the algae looks better, then I'll probably acid wash the filter.

If anyone thinks I should adjust any of that, let me know. Things are looking up though.

[NullQwerty]

With the water being mostly blue now, I'm still trying to figure out why my filter is still building up pressure so quick. Before I thought it was the Live Algae, and that definitly had an impact, but I'm still building up to 23 PSI within 1-2 hours. And now when I backwash, the water isn't dirty. It's just a milky gray from the DE (before it was often green).

I'm gonna do the Acid Wash tomorrow morning, but I've got a question about it for when I do it. The pool store guy said that there should be a row of about 10 missing fingers in the pump, and that I should check to make sure that these holes are lined up properly. When I cleaned the filter today, not only were there no missing fingers, but there were no holes that I could see.

Does the Hayward EC-65 not have these holes? Or is it possible the previous owner mistakenly filled the holes with new fingers?

[bbb]

I run my EC-65 at between 20-30 PSI for WEEKS at a time - it's not really a big deal if you are still getting good water flow into the pool. It's not hurting anything IMHO. The acid wash should help - but believe it or not, I have never done an acid wash -- just a thorough (10 minute) rinsing out using that Hayward DE Filter cleaning wand. does the trick for me. I think that's the least of your worries at the moment, but it can't hurt **as long as you are REALLY careful with the acid!*** Now that you don't have live algae (which was turning your DE green, by the way), you should be able to go much longer between backwashings. And during backwashings, I remove the pressure gauge, and stick the wand in there to clean the fingers without even taking off the 15-screw filter cover.

You're making good progress.

I would remove the 3" tabs -- in your other thread it says your CYA is 70. That's on the very high side already and you don't want to add to it at all (3" tabs will increase your CYA). After you use up all your powdered shock you may consider moving to liquid shock (as the pool store calls it) or plain bleach (as everyone else calls it) - that won't increase your CYA. Have you purchased a drop-based kit yet? Is your water clear of debris now? What do you use to clean your pool?

About the 'missing fingers' -- I don't believe I have them either. Good luck!

pps -- "Alk increaser" is really baking soda, just so you know. As you read more, you may find yourself buying more grocery store type chemicals to get the pool up and running in the future at much less cost...

[NullQwerty]

I'm trying to get into the grocery store kick. The only two I've found out about though is just Borax, Bleach, and now baking soda.

My CYA had dropped to almost 0 so I had to put in some stabalizer.

My algae is much more under control, but it's not gone yet. Without a waste line, vacuuming is very difficult. I've resorted to a shop vac attached to the pool vacuum. Every 30 seconds it fills up and I have to take the vac out of the pool and dump the shop vac. I'm looking into a skimmer sock to see if it filters out algae. Then I could just vacuum as normal.

I did the Acid wash, but the crazy thing is that my pressure still built up within an hour to the point where there is very little flow into my pool. It's getting really frustrating because I can't keep the filter going. If I shut off the filter for a couple of hours, the pressure will drop on it's own. One hour later though it'll be right back up there though. At least I don't have to drain it constantly though. Thanks for the tip on removing the pressure gauge though. That will be huge.

I'm getting a water test done after work today. I'll post my readings tonight.

[bbb]

I think you should keep the filter running with NO backwashing until there is very little flow of water back into the pool. That will help focus your time with getting your pool cleaned out. Skimmer socks work well and they are cheap. They do keep gunk out of your filter. What you really need is more chlorine - if I understand right, your CYA is 70, and your FC is only 1.5. To kill the algae, you really need to get your FC (free chlorine) level from 10 to 20 ppm and keep it there (see link (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365). (By the way, the beauty of Ben's kit on poolsolutions.com, is that it lets you measure free chlorine levels over 5 very easily). Onxe the algae is gone, you should run the pool at around 5 ppm of Free Chlorine.

Also, what other (if any) pool cleaning equipment do you have? I don't have a waste line but don't really miss having one. I use a leaf eater hooked up to a garden hose with a fine mesh bag (http://www.poolsolutions.com/cart/clean.php) to get gunk out, personally. Once the gunk is out, your regualr vacuum should work just fine.

[NullQwerty]

Unfortunately, once the filter hits 23/24 PSI there is basically no flow at all into the pool. If I turn it off for a couple of hours, it comes back, but during the week that means only 2 hours per day of filtering (since I work all day and sleep at night).

Hopefully once the algae is completely gone, the filter will be normal. Otherwise I might have to get a timer installed until I can figure out what's wrong with the filter.

Pool store was closed so I couldn't get a full reading, but my test kit showed very high chlorine (above 10 ppm). PH (the only other thing it tests) seemed spot on, or maybe a little low. I'm going to order Ben's kit tomorrow this week.

The water today was very clean and clear and there was algae on the floor. I vacuumed up as much as I could. In the deep end that was difficult because it's hard to see the exact algae locations, where as in shallow that is very easy. I then brushed the walls down to help stir things up a bit.

As far as pool cleaning equipment goes, I've got a vacuum and a brush.

Guess I'll see what tomorrow brings me.

[bbb]

Keep up the good work. Hopefully your filter will be ok or at least will need some inexpensive servicing. There is some good troubleshooting info here (http://www.haywardnet.com/owners/troubleshooting/filters.html#cycles). Sounds like you have dead algae on the floor. I'm still confused about your CYA level, though. Is it in fact 70?

[NullQwerty]

My CYA was 70, but then it dropped to almost 0. When I added in the stabalizer, that brought it back up into the acceptable range. Almost all the algae is gone.

I'm going to take Friday off of work so I can give it my full attention. I'll post the latest when I have it.

Thanks for all the help!

[bbb]

My CYA was 70, but then it dropped to almost 0. When I added in the stabalizer, that brought it back up into the acceptable range. Almost all the algae is gone.

I'm going to take Friday off of work so I can give it my full attention. I'll post the latest when I have it.

Thanks for all the help!

Great to hear. I'm looking forward to see your latest test readings!

[misternicely]

It has been a few days since your last post. I hope all is going better for you.

Just a few words about the bump-type DE filters. I'm not an expert by any means, but I have spent a fair amount of time researching them. I have a smaller pool - only a 9000 gallon, and I use a Hayward EC40 bump filter.

You do not have to replace the DE when your filter pressure builds up. The concept with DE is that it coats the filter fingers/grids/whatever with the DE and that filters out small impurities. With commercial DE filters (like in a massive public pool) when you turn the filter off the DE on the grids/fingers just falls off. Then the DE needs to be washed out and replaced. In these smaller hayward filters (especially the bump type) the filter is constructed in such a way that after you have bumped to knock the DE off, and restart the filter, the DE that is on the bottom of the filter recoats the grids/fingers. It basically just rearranges the DE on the grids. You should notice your pressure go way down after one of these "bumps", and then build up again. Once it rises 7-10 psi, it's time to turn off the pump and "bump" again. You can do this repeatedly. Each time you bump, the pressure on a restart will be slightly higher than the last time. Per the manuals, once you bump and the pressure starts out higher (7-10 psi) than when you FIRST put the original DE in, then it is time to flush (and I mean flush thoroughly) and replace the DE.

I know it is a pain, but it is a good thing that your pressure is rising - at least it is telling you that your filter is taking the stuff out of the pool.

Hope that helps :)

Mike

[waste]

Mike, nice to hear from a fresh source. You have said, albeit a little better than I did in the post I linked above, what I was trying to convey. You seem to know your sh**, um stuff :) Just to clarify your point for others who might read this, bumping will drop the pressure some but not take it back to 'baseline' or the clean psi, when it stops dropping the pressure more than 3psi, it's time to do what I linked in my previous post as the de is pretty much 'full'. Welcome to the forum