Green Hair Problem After Using Bioguard Smart Shock

[SnoopysGirl]

Hello all! My family has moved to a home with an in-ground, vinyl lined pool. We live in the upper midwest, and our pool is open from mid-May until mid-October.

Since this is our second seasoning owning a pool, I have learned a lot, but still have some questions. One in particular has come up recently:

Our pool has an automatic cover, but due to some pool deck problems, it is out of order until we can get the deck resurfaced and replace the motor, cover, and track. Last year, since we had a cover, our chlorine levels were usually high, so I did not shock the pool often - maybe once a month or once every three weeks.

This year, our pool is exposed to full sun and it has been very hot, so I have been shocking the pool weekly. We use BioGuard products. I use the pucks in our chlorinator, and I have been using the BioGuard algicide, along with Smart Shock.

I have noticed that my daughter and I have a green tinge to our hair this year. It is most noticeable in the two or so days after I shock the pool. I do know that the green color is caused from copper in the pool. I noticed that the BioGuard Smart Shock has copper in it - although a very small amount - but I think it is what is causing our problem.

When I called the BioGuard company, they assured me that the about of copper in the shock isn't enough to turn our hair green and that the likely cause is our pool heater. When speaking with pool dealers around the area, one mentioned that it is the heater, but then others say that a low pH in the pool would cause that problem, and also since it has been so hot here, the heater hasn't run at all, except in the early first week or two in June.

I am very confused and I am not sure if the BioGuard agent is telling me the truth. It seems like everyone has a different answer. Thank you for any and all help you can give me on this issue! Other than this issue, our water so far looks great :)

[CarlD]

Hi SnoopyGirl, and welcome.

The answer is disturbingly simple. Bioguard is unwilling to take responsibility for the adverse side effects of their products. This is no surprise. It IS the copper turning your hair green, nothing else. You need to stop using this product immediately.

The only Bioguard product I ever use is Stabilizer aka, CYA for Cyanuric Acid, when I cannot get it generically cheaper.

I suggest you read through our site, and our sister site, PoolSolutions.com and learn about the easy and cheap-to-use B-B-B system where you can get most of your pool maintenance products at your supermarket for far less.

As for cleaning out the copper, I'll let our metal-clearing experts help you with that. I've never had to do it.

For reference, you'll be asked to fill in details on your pool, it's size, filter type etc.

Then we'll ask you for a current set of readings on your water, which your pool store can give you (don't buy anything yet).

Carl

[BigDave]

Do you know your pH? If it's been low, you could be removing copper from your heater. I also wouldn't be surprised if some of the other products have copper in them. Copper is also likely to build up in the pool (until it comes out on your hair).

Your agent may not be lying to you but the truth is screaming in pain. If (s)he's been testing your water and advising you and (s)he let your pH go low enough to take copper from your heater (as suggested), then either way that agent has caused you green hair.

Can you trust that?

I can tell you this: the method of poolcare described here and at pool solutions.com is easy, effective, and relatively inexpensive. It is also liberating - you will be in charge of your own pool with no one to mislead you.

[SnoopysGirl]

Do you know your pH? If it's been low, you could be removing copper from your heater. I also wouldn't be surprised if some of the other products have copper in them. Copper is also likely to build up in the pool (until it comes out on your hair).


Yes, I do know the pH of my pool, and also the alkalinity. pH is at 7.7 alkalinity 130. Seems good to me. Where can I find the information about easy pool care?

[PoolDoc]

Post your pool info here:

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

and get a good test kit ASAP:

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon


We're seeing more and more cases where both BioGuard and Arch / HTH products are CREATING the problems they will then sell you fixes for; it's definitely becoming much hard to get plain unblended basic pool chemicals with few side effects. I can't prove they are doing this on purpose, but . . .

If you can't get the HTH 6-way immediately, at least get a cheap OTO / phenol red drops kit, and check your pH.

[PoolDoc]

Yes, I do know the pH of my pool, and also the alkalinity. pH is at 7.7 alkalinity 130. Seems good to me. Where can I find the information about easy pool care?

Seems good to me, too. If you haven't had a low pH (<7.0) in the past, the copper is NOT from your pool, but IS from either your fill water OR something you've put into the pool.

You can use HEDP to temporarily fix the problem:
HEDP is a liquid phosphonate that is pretty chlorine stable, and very good at keeping dissolved metals IN the water, instead of ON your pool surfaces. It can lift recent stains, OR it can be used along side of ascorbic acid, to keep the metals in the water, after the ascorbic acid is consumed by chlorine.

Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/poolbooks) @ Amazon
20% KemTek HEDP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI22/poolbooks) @ Amazon


and the CuLator product to actually REMOVE the copper from the water:
The CuLator product is a special patented plastic material, contained in a bag that goes into the skimmer, that can slowly take metals OUT of your pool water. We think it works, and have some evidence that it does, but not proof yet. (Not likely to be available locally.)

1 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003C5PNUW/poolbooks) @ Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004Y6RK3Q/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007AHDMTM/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004XUIRQW/poolbooks) @ Amazon (to protect CuLator from being damaged by scum)

but, you need to get away from that BioGuard dealer. They screw up pools more creatively than anyone else out there, and pioneered the use of chlorine+voodoo blends that do 'who-knows-what' to your pool. Get a REAL testkit:

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon

and take control of your pool!

[SnoopysGirl]

Post your pool info here:

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

and get a good test kit ASAP:

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon


We're seeing more and more cases where both BioGuard and Arch / HTH products are CREATING the problems they will then sell you fixes for; it's definitely becoming much hard to get plain unblended basic pool chemicals with few side effects. I can't prove they are doing this on purpose, but . . .

If you can't get the HTH 6-way immediately, at least get a cheap OTO / phenol red drops kit, and check your pH.

Thank you, pool doctor, I will get a good test kit. I usually use strips, but I also have an OTO/phenol kit, but I think I need to replace the OTO/phenol, as it is from last season.

Also, I entered in my information about my pool as requested. Let me know if any of my answers are unclear.


Seems good to me, too. If you haven't had a low pH (<7.0) in the past, the copper is NOT from your pool, but IS from either your fill water OR something you've put into the pool.

You can use HEDP to temporarily fix the problem:
HEDP is a liquid phosphonate that is pretty chlorine stable, and very good at keeping dissolved metals IN the water, instead of ON your pool surfaces. It can lift recent stains, OR it can be used along side of ascorbic acid, to keep the metals in the water, after the ascorbic acid is consumed by chlorine.

Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/poolbooks) @ Amazon
20% KemTek HEDP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI22/poolbooks) @ Amazon


and the CuLator product to actually REMOVE the copper from the water:
The CuLator product is a special patented plastic material, contained in a bag that goes into the skimmer, that can slowly take metals OUT of your pool water. We think it works, and have some evidence that it does, but not proof yet. (Not likely to be available locally.)

1 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003C5PNUW/poolbooks) @ Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004Y6RK3Q/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007AHDMTM/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004XUIRQW/poolbooks) @ Amazon (to protect CuLator from being damaged by scum)

but, you need to get away from that BioGuard dealer. They screw up pools more creatively than anyone else out there, and pioneered the use of chlorine+voodoo blends that do 'who-knows-what' to your pool. Get a REAL testkit:

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon

and take control of your pool!

Thank you very much for the product information and suggestions - will look in to purchasing the culator on Amazon.

[BigDave]

Yes, I do know the pH of my pool, and also the alkalinity. pH is at 7.7 alkalinity 130. Seems good to me.Agreed, if your pool's been around 7.7 pH and 130 TA your heater is not the source of the copper unless, maybe, the chlorinator is plumbed in wrong. It should be the after the heater in the water's trip back to the pool and have a means (check valve) of stopping the chlorinator from flowing back to the heater when the pump is off.


Where can I find the information about easy pool care?The Pool Guides on poolsolutions.com (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/index.html) are a great place to start along with the forums: Using Chlorine and Chlorinating Chemicals (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/forumdisplay.php?132-Using-Chlorine-and-Chlorinating-Chemicals), Testing and Adjusting Pool Water Chemistry (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/forumdisplay.php?133-Testing-and-Adjusting-Pool-Water-Chemistry), and (for your copper) Dealing with 'Minerals', 'Ions', Metals & Stains (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/forumdisplay.php?139-Dealing-with-Minerals-Ions-Metals-amp-Stains). And, of course, you'll need information about your pool water itself and for that you'll need a Taylor K-2006.

[SnoopysGirl]

*UPDATE* I purchased the Taylor test kit (as above) and spent the afternoon running tests. Here is what I have come up with (some test I did more than once to make sure the readings were accurate:

FC = 5 ppm
CC = 0.4 ppm
pH 7.4
TA = 190 ppm CaCO3
Calcium Hardness = 420
CYA = was very high - actually could not get an accurate reading it was so high.

The water in the pool is crystal clear, so I hesitate to do anything to it, but I am very concerned about they CYA levels. I should add that I think there is a tear in the vinyl liner (near the deep end steps - needs to be repaired), so I have to add water to the pool about every 2 days, and after I backwash. The water in my area is very hard and very alkaline, which I am sure has contributed to the higher than normal readings. I see that it is recommended to use the BBB system, but I am not certain I understand how it works. Are chlorine pucks not used at all? If not, then what is used in their place? I'd hate to mess up the pool at this points, since it does look good. And other than turning our hair green (I also purchased the Culator product), the water SEEMS perfect.

Please help, as my kids spend a lot of time in the pool and it makes me nervous thinking that they are exposed to a dangerous environment. Thank you!!

[Watermom]

Those pucks are the reason your CYA is so high. Re-run the CYA test but use some dilution to help figure out what the reading actually is. Take one part pool water and one part distilled water, mix, then use this to do the CYA test. Multiply your test by 2. If you still get a reading of 100, use one part pool water and two parts distilled but multiply the result by 3.

In place of the pucks, you can just use bleach for your source of chlorine. That is what many of us here on the forum do. Take some time to read a lot of the posts on the forum, especially the stickies at the top of many of the sub-forums. Also, go on over to our sister website www.poolsolutions.com and do some reading there.

[SnoopysGirl]

I re-ran the test twice more, once diluting by half, then diluting using 1/3 pool water and 2/3 RO water. The last test indicates that the CYA is 270.

We live in the upper-midwest, and when the pool was opened in May, I had the water tested and I see that the reading at that time was 60. Is it possible for it to raise that much in less than two months? Also, I used the pucks all last season, so why was the CYA low when we opened in May? I will see if I can figure out how to just use bleach. If I have questions, I will do my best to look for the answer first.

Thank you in advance for the advice and help.

[SnoopysGirl]

I readjusted my total alkalinity using Table K on page 63 in the Taylor booklet. I see that carbonate alkalinity is 109, not sure if that makes a difference.

I did some reading (okay, a lot of reading), and I see that adding liquid chlorine instead of using the bioguard tabs would be recommended.

As I understand it, I am to add liquid bleach every evening, after testing the FC level in the pool. I have a few questions:

1. What water chemistry tests do I need to check daily besides FC? All of them? I used up a full bottle of the CYA reagent already and I'm working on my 2nd :\
2. Should I remove the pucks from the chlorinator, or just keep them and let them dissolve?
3. Will my CYA level go down as I continue to use bleach?
4. Do you think the CYA levels have really risen that much since May?
5. Do you think that my water chemistry (that I listed above) is at all to blame for our green hair, or is it probably just the copper (as I suspected in the beginning).

I apologize for asking so many questions, and possibly being repetitive. Since I am new, my last post hasn't been approved and isn't visible yet. I also apologize for getting a bit off topic, but again, as I am new, I don't have privileges in all areas of the forum - thanks again!!

[BigDave]

Can you tell us how much of the trichlor tabs you've used this summer.
Do you know what test method was used when you had the water tested in May? We might be suspicious of that 60ppm CYA number.

[SnoopysGirl]

Can you tell us how much of the trichlor tabs you've used this summer.
Do you know what test method was used when you had the water tested in May? We might be suspicious of that 60ppm CYA number.

I would say a rough estimate would be 25-30 tabs. I was using In The Swim tabs from the previous owner, then switched over to the BioGuard tabs just recently, and have used about 12 of those. I believe it is the same product - trichlor - in each of those tabs.

[BigDave]

If those tabs are about a half pound each and pure trichlor then that only accounts for about 33ppm of CYA so I'd say that 60ppm number was bad.

As you determined, you'll need to switch to an unstabilized form of chlorine. Bleach or Liquid Chlorine (high strength bleach from pool store) is most popular around here.

1)Test for FC, CC, and pH daily, TA weekly (less if you find it doesn't change), CYA a few days after those pucks are all dissolved and then maybe monthly, CH a couple times a season - in your vinyl lined pool, CH is not critical, you just don't want it to get too high as that can cause cloudiness.

2)You might as well let them dissolve, they'll only add a little more to alot of CYA.

3)CYA will drop very slowly as your replace water lost to splash-out and backwash.

4)No, I think your test in May was bad and you've building CYA for years.

5)Copper.

Perhaps Ben will advise you regarding running a pool with CYA at 270ppm.

[SnoopysGirl]

Thank you, BigDave.

I am going to test the pool again and get started with the liquid chlorine. Is it okay for me to post my chemistry findings here and receive advice, or should I start a new post on it as I have questions? Thanks again.

[PoolDoc]

No, I think your test in May was bad and you've building CYA for years.

Cold water + inadequate wait time may cause false low readings. 'Guess strips' are ALWAYS subject to false readings, especially with CYA testing.


Perhaps Ben will advise you regarding running a pool with CYA at 270ppm.

I can -- but you'll have to decide. Do you want to run a pool with some odd adaptive chemistry? The POOL will be fine, and SWIMMERS won't notice, but it will mess with YOUR mind some.

Your alternative is to have it professionally drained, and even then, if the liner is more than 2 - 3 years old, you may lose the liner.

There *IS* another way to drain it in place, but you'd need to buy a 35 x 55 winter cover, in order to do so.

[SnoopysGirl]

I can -- but you'll have to decide. Do you want to run a pool with some odd adaptive chemistry? The POOL will be fine, and SWIMMERS won't notice, but it will mess with YOUR mind some.

Your alternative is to have it professionally drained, and even then, if the liner is more than 2 - 3 years old, you may lose the liner.

There *IS* another way to drain it in place, but you'd need to buy a 35 x 55 winter cover, in order to do so.

I think that my "guess strips" are actually kind of right with the CYA - it indicates that the stabilizer is around 300 - it has been inching its way up, and I'm sorry to say, I didn't understand what it meant until recently. I've been naive :\

I won't be draining the pool anytime real soon, since we may be changing the liner in the near future due to the fact that we may have to replace the entire concrete pool deck, and that is a thread for a different day ... mostly for me to vent ... and I'm not sure anyone has time for that ;)

I am intrigued now, and am wondering exactly how my mind will be messed with - if you have time and would like to dish about how I can run the pool with this high CYA, I'd love to learn.

[PoolDoc]

I am intrigued now, and am wondering exactly how my mind will be messed with - if you have time and would like to dish about how I can run the pool with this high CYA, I'd love to learn.

The reason it will mess with your mind, is that running with CYA this high is contrary to guidelines EVERYWHERE, and I do mean EVERYWHERE, including here. I've been cautiously inching toward offering this as a possible solution, as I've been able to collect bits and pieces of data. In fact I'm currently operating a large public pool at around 120 ppm CYA.

But, I haven't re-written everything here and on PoolSolutions to reflect that, and the fact is I'm not 100% sure that some problem won't crop up, that ends up with the conclusion that maybe this wasn't such a good idea ofter all. But so far, everything I've found suggests that it IS a perfectly valid option. It's definitely working well at the public pool.

There are two problems that do exist.

First, in order to reach effective shock levels, you'll have to take your chlorine level above 100 ppm. That's can be an issue. It's hard to test, and can rapidly consume your testing reagents. Of course, you won't have to test often, since it won't come down very fast. And, that's another problem: at 100 ppm, you can forget about wearing fancy swimwear, and you may -- I'm not sure -- have some eye irritation. But, once you're there, you may only drop at the rate of 10 - 15 ppm per week, so it could take 3 -4 weeks to get back to non-shock levels!

Second, pH testing may be screwed up. Actually, we're being to think that that is NOT a problem, IF you take your pH reading quickly. But, we're not 100% sure, and if it DOES screw up pH testing, you'll either have to use an adapted test (with distilled water) OR you'll have to to get a pH meter (~$75, with buffers and such.)

Nevertheless, if I were you, I'd go ahead with the HiC2 (high chlorine + high CYA) approach. Here's what I'd recommend for you, based on your current situation, with some copper problems.

1. Use up any remaining tabs (they are hard to dispose of otherwise, and at this point, won't change the problem much.)
2. Add polyquat to improve filtration AND prevent algae, before we start taking your chlorine really high.
3. Add HEDP to keep the copper from staining AND to make it available to the CuLater units.
4. Add CuLator units to REMOVE the copper completely from your pool water.
5. Convert your pool to a borate protected pool to reduce algae problems (60 ppm borates, from 20 Mule Team borax + muriatic acid)
6. After all this is complete, and the CuLator units have been in place for 3 weeks, switch to high chlorine levels, and stop using polyquat & HEDP.
7. Purchase -- but do not use -- sufficient sodium bromide to allow you to deal with an algae outbreak WITHOUT extremely high chlorine levels. (Sodium bromide is converted to bromine by the chlorine, but bromine is NOT affected by stabilizer. We're going to try to avoid needed it, since it will create a much higher chlorine loss rate for a week or two after it's used. However, if you need it, you don't want to have to wait, so you need it on hand.)
8. Once you make the switch to high chlorine, you'll pretty much need to ignore advice from anyone but me, since most of the support team here is still pretty inexperienced with this. Janet (aylad) runs her home pool in the 80 - 100 ppm CYA range, so she's less so. But, you'll need to NOT panic if you post, and someone here is like, "OMG, you've got to drain right away!!"

The basic strategy is to
(a) use up your existing chlorine AND get rid of the copper.
(b) avoid algae problems during this period.
(c) add borates to reduce the chance of algae problems
(d) keep bromide on hand as 'bail-out' solution, that doesn't require 100 ppm levels of chlorine.
(e) switch to NORMAL chlorine levels that range from 20 - 35 ppm. You'll want to pick 1 day per week to raise levels BACK to 30 - 35 ppm, and then let if fall for a week.

I'd guess you'll spend $250 or so to add the borax, get the HEDP and CuLator units, and get the sodium bromide. The borax is a good idea in any case, and you need the HEDP & Culator for clean up, regardless. So, the only additional expenses are for the sodium bromide, which will be maybe $30.

You will need to decide how you will chlorinate. You have 3 options: a SWCG, bleach, or calcium hypochlorite. With a 30k gal pool, adding a weekly 10 - 15 ppm dose of chlorine with 6% household bleach will take 5 - 8 gallons of bleach each week. If you can get an 50# container of calcium hypochlorite, that will work for you, but again, you'll have to follow some very particular directions about how to use it, to avoid excessive calcium build up. Currently (and that may change), it's available at Amazon

In The Swim Cal-Chlor Pool Chlorine Granules 50 lbs. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WKS6D4/poolbooks)
for about $145 delivered. You'd need about 3.5 - 5 lbs per week at ~$3/lb which would be cheaper than the bleach.

NOTE: your actual chlorine usage may be less than what I'm saying, but again, we just don't have the experience to be sure.

I'm going to go ahead and put all the links below, but if you get started, let me know, so we can tweak this.

Polyquat (3 quarts)
Using polyquat during metal clean up accomplishes two things: it helps kill or prevent algae, letting you run lower chlorine levels, and it is a very good clarifier, that helps you filter out any small metal particles that may form.(Probably available from pool stores, and possibly some big box stores -- but you MUST learn to ID it correctly. See the polyquat page (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat.html) for more info.)

Kem-Tek 60% polyquat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Nava 60% polyquat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004BFV4EQ/poolbooks) @ Amazon


HEDP (1 quart 60% or 2 quarts 20%)
HEDP is a liquid phosphonate that is pretty chlorine stable, and very good at keeping dissolved metals IN the water, instead of ON your pool surfaces. It can lift recent stains, OR it can be used along side of ascorbic acid, to keep the metals in the water, after the ascorbic acid is consumed by chlorine.

Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/poolbooks) @ Amazon
20% KemTek HEDP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI22/poolbooks) @ Amazon


Culator + skimmer sock
The CuLator product is a special patented plastic material, contained in a bag that goes into the skimmer, that can slowly take metals OUT of your pool water. We think it works, and have some evidence that it does, but not proof yet. (Not likely to be available locally.)

1 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003C5PNUW/poolbooks) @ Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004Y6RK3Q/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007AHDMTM/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004XUIRQW/poolbooks) @ Amazon (to protect CuLator from being damaged by scum)

Borax (29 boxes of 20 Mule team + 8 gallons of muriatic acid)
Borax also can help control algae, but you have to add a LOT. It ends up costing around $50 per 10,000 gallons of pool water, for borax and muriatic acid, if you buy your borax at Walmart and your muriatic acid at Lowes. Soda ash is now frequently available at Walmart in the detergent section, at prices MUCH cheaper than the pool prices for the same chemical. If you ALSO need to raise your alkalinity, you can buy that instead. But if your alkalintiy is high enough, and you only need to raise your pH, it's better to use borax:

20 Mule Team Borax (http://www.walmart.com/ip/20850525) @ Walmart
Muriatic acid (http://www.lowes.com/pd_206474-34228-CR.MA.P.01_0__) @ Lowes (do not get the 'safer' muriatic acid; do read the "Using Muriatic Acid (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111)" sticky)
Bromide (4 lbs)
+ Be VERY careful about bromide, if you try to buy it elsewhere. There are multiple version of granular "yellow algae" treatments. Some contain sodium bromide; some contain ammonium chlorine, which is completely different and not desirable; some contain bromide PLUS phosphates.

Nava Chemicals 652072097 Yellow Algae Remover, 2-Pound Bottle (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004BFR2I8/) @ Amazon
Tropi Clear TC-4402-1 2-Pound Yellow Eliminator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002SG7JAI/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Bleach or cal hypo
If you get ready to buy cal hypo, and the link I gave you is dead, let me find some more for you. Cal hypo, like all other chlorine products, is now being commonly blended with 'goop' and that's NOT what you want!

[SnoopysGirl]

Ben,

Thank you for taking the time to help with the copper & CYA problem. Based on the above, I have a couple of questions & comments:

1. Comment: I will be using liquid chlorine at 10% - that is what is available at my local hardware store for the best $$
2. Based on the above, how much should I be adding to the pool?
3. The HEDP & Culator products work together to remove the copper, is that correct?
4. Can copper cause a yellowish stain on the pool, or would it be greenish? I have some mild yellow staining on my liner and steps this year. I am thinking it is either from copper, calcium (since high hardness), or possibly some other chemical in the pool.
5. I have the BioGuard Algicide that is not polyquat - it is the other (I think it is termed as just quat?). What is the disadvantage with the product that I am currently using, other than foaming (which isn't really an issue in my pool)?
6. Can I just add a bunch of bleach to increase my chlorine level? There are a lot of other chemicals listed above, and I'm wondering what the benefit is to having them/using them. Specifically, the borates and the bromide are what I am wondering about.

Here are the stats for my pool this morning:

FC = 6 ppm
CC = 0 (not sure if I did the reading wrong the other day, or if it can correct itself that quickly on its own)
pH = 7.4
I am sure that my calcium hardness is still high at 420, and CYA hasn't changed, of course. Alkalinity I did not test for today, but I can go out and do that if you need that information.

[PoolDoc]

1. Comment: I will be using liquid chlorine at 10% - that is what is available at my local hardware store for the best $$

We'll need to verify that it IS 10%. It probably WAS 10% when it was bottled, but if it's not stored well, it may not be even 6%. We can roughly verify it using 2 bottles of 10%, 2 bottles of Walmart brand 6% and the K2006.


2. Based on the above, how much should I be adding to the pool?

I had to check the chart and pool dimensions; based on your dimensions, your correct volume is probably around 21,000 gallons, and your PF is 5.5. So, 1 gallons of 6% bleach would add about 2.7 ppm of chlorine to your pool.

What your level should be depends on
1. the decision you make about your direction
2. whether you want to remove the copper, or ignore it. (High chlorine makes stains more likely)
3. whether there is now any algae in your pool.


3. The HEDP & Culator products work together to remove the copper, is that correct?

Yes, the HEDP keeps it in a dissolved form, and the Culator removes dissolved metals.


4. Can copper cause a yellowish stain on the pool, or would it be greenish? I have some mild yellow staining on my liner and steps this year. I am thinking it is either from copper, calcium (since high hardness), or possibly some other chemical in the pool.

It's not copper. If it brushes off and then returns, it might be mustard algae - but that usually appears only where it's shaded and there is no foot traffic. It might be iron, in which case dropping a vitamin C tablet on a stained area will clear a small spot.


5. I have the BioGuard Algicide that is not polyquat - it is the other (I think it is termed as just quat?). What is the disadvantage with the product that I am currently using, other than foaming (which isn't really an issue in my pool)?

If there's not enough to foam, there's probably not enough to have any effect at all -- EXCEPT to use up chlorine and form chloramines.


6. Can I just add a bunch of bleach to increase my chlorine level?

Yes.


There are a lot of other chemicals listed above, and I'm wondering what the benefit is to having them/using them. Specifically, the borates and the bromide are what I am wondering about.

Each of those has specific purpose that will NOT be replaced by a bunch of bleach. This is where part of the mind bending comes. You need to re-read my post and try to understand WHY I recommend using each one. If you DON'T understand, it's likely you won't be able to follow through effectively . . . and I'd rather go more conventionally.

If you get all THESE items, and supply your own full diameter hose (no tiny kinking hoses!), you can drain and refill with no risk to your liner:

Defender 8-Year 35-Feet x 55-Feet Rectangular In-Ground Winter Cover (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005Y6YJVG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Little Giant 5-MSPR 1/6 Horsepower Permanently Lubricated Submersible Pump (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OLAEA6/poolbooks)
Wellington G1008S0600 Solid Braid Nylon Rope, (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00098DWEY/poolbooks) @ Amazon (yes, you will need that much rope!)
(2) Set of 12 Large 10" Galvanized Steel Tent Peg Stake (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003LUWUF4//poolbooks) @ Amazon
Yellow Jacket 2884 12/3 Heavy-Duty 15-Amp SJTW (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009ON12G/poolbooks) @ Amazon
(if you use your own, make sure it's big enough so the pump motor doesn't burn up)
Gilmour 10 Series 8 Ply Flexogen Hose 5/8 Inch x 60 Feet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000J43QCG/poolbooks)
(you'll need 1 hose to fill with, and 1 to drain with, since you'll be doing BOTH at the same time!)
for the cost of the water plus $200 - $300, depending on how much of the above you already have.

[SnoopysGirl]

Ben, thanks again for the reply. Sorry I didn't see it until now.

I did re-read through your previous post and the new post. I will not be draining my pool at this time, as I mentioned that we have a bigger concrete pool decking issue and may be draining anyway at the end of the season.

I will purchase the HEDP & polyquat algicide, and the 10% bleach product - the bleach is sold by my local hardware store, and the staff at large pool in our area purchases it to chlorinate their pool, so I am going to assume that it is fairly "fresh."

I do not believe that the staining on the steps and liner is algae, as it doesn't move at all when swept. I am very good at sweeping the pool at the very least once a week, and more often if I have more swimmers in the pool. The things I have done differently this year is shocked the pool more frequently with the BioGuard Smart Shock, had the pool open and exposed to more sunlight than last year (there is an automatic cover on the pool, and it is now non-functional because of above mentioned pool deck problem), and used new BioGuard pool pucks (just started using those approximately 3 weeks ago now). I have looked around and I see that there are some tests I can administer to determine the stain type. I will try those and get back to you with results.

Today:

pH 7.4
FC 6.2
CC 0.2

[PoolDoc]

I have looked around and I see that there are some tests I can administer to determine the stain type. I will try those and get back to you with results.


Try this one, first:


If it brushes off and then returns, it might be mustard algae - but that usually appears only where it's shaded and there is no foot traffic. It might be iron, in which case dropping a vitamin C tablet on a stained area will clear a small spot.

Also, you *really* need better testing. I'm going to post some links and standard kit info below, but you need to know your calcium, alkalinity and stabilizer levels, with reasonable accuracy . . . and that means a kit, not strips, especially with stabilizer. The stabilizer test is not all that accurate, with the kits, but it's almost meaningless with the strips.

================================================== ============
+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.

+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16551) )

One caution for the 2012 season: Amazon does not stock the kits directly. So when buying at Amazon, Amato is our current preferred seller. However, they often don't list enough stock to last the whole day, so try order mid-morning. You should expect a delivered cost under $60 for the K2006A and under $95 for the K2006C. If you can't find that, wait a day.

+ Here are links to the kits we recommend:

HTH 6-Way Test Kit (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668) @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIIG/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IXIJ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon

[SnoopysGirl]

I do have a drop test kit - the Taylor K2006A and I tested for alkalinity, hardness, and CYA on Wednesday. I printed off the Pool School Basic Pool Care schedule which recommended testing only chlorine and pH daily, TA and CH levels weekly, and CYA levels probably monthly (says seasonally, large water replacement). So, I have only been reporting to you my test that I have been performing daily. Tests that I performed on Wednesday are posted on that day.

In looking at the Best Guess Chlorine chart, and hoping that as I stop using the pucks, the CYA will gradually come down as my kids swim and I add water as my pool leaks (*sigh*), I see that I want to keep my FC at about 8-15 ppm.

I can't see what measurements I put in for my pool, but as we have a roman shaped pool and it is 38-40 ft long by 18 ft wide, and 3-8 ft deep, I am getting about 28-29,000 gallons.

How does one figure out ppm in adding liquid chlorine? As soon as the remaining pucks dissolve I am going to start using the liquid.

[PoolDoc]

To figure out ppm per gallon of bleach or LC, you need 3 factors:

1. The PF (pool factor) -- yours is 5.5
2. The % of chlorine in the bleach you have (2, 2.75, 3, 6, 10, 12.5)
3. The approximate weight per gallon -- use 8.5 lbs per gallon for bleach

So, for 6% household bleach, your calculation would be 5.5 x 0.06 x 8.5 = 2.8 ppm / gallon. Usually, I just remember that it's 0.5 lbs Cl2 equivalent per gallon of bleach (0.06 x 8.5), rather than calculating it. So, for 10% bleach, it would be 5.5 x 0.10 x 8.5 = 4.7 ppm, and for 12.5% it would be 5.8 ppm per gallon.

In actual fact, pool store chlorine, except in locations where they have their own bleach tank and get daily deliveries, will only rarely be up to the rated percent. Here's why:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qQdlDFIMMT0/UARhu6mDIRI/AAAAAAAADlI/PK1uMLE0PS0/s800/web%25202011-05-31_10-52-18_676.jpg

What you are seeing is a pallet of 'liquid chlorine' stored at the doorway of an SCP warehouse at over 90 degrees F. Those pallets come in early May and are stored at warehouse temps for a month or more . . . BEFORE they arrive at the pool store. This picture was taken in May 2011, but there was a pallet sitting in the exact same spot this July, on the day it hit 107! *THAT* bleach probably was less than 4% strength by the time some poor sucker bought it.

It's not deliberate -- I've never talked to anyone at SCP or locally that understood how rapidly bleach breaks down at high temps. But, whether they understand or not, hot bleach still breaks down. By contrast big-box store bleach (a) has to more pure, to avoid laundry problems, so it breaks down more slowly at ANY temp, (b) rapidly transits the supply system, especially at Walmart, and (c) often stored in cooler or even air conditioned areas. So, it's MUCH more likely that 6% Walmart bleach is 6+% than it is that 10% pool store LC is going to be near 10%.

[SnoopysGirl]

Thank you very much!

I am still very confused as to why it says that I have a 21,000 gallon pool in my signature. I have an in ground 18x38 pool 3ft shallow 8ft deep, roman shaped with bumped out step. When I use online pool calculators, they indicate a 28-29,000 gallon pool, and the company that takes care of our pool says it is 33,000 gallons. I usually average everything out and say 30,000, but I want to make sure that I have all of the values correct before I start adding chemicals. It just seems like it is a huge difference. Thanks, again!!

[PoolDoc]

I am still very confused as to why it says that I have a 21,000 gallon pool in my signature. I have an in ground 18x38 pool 3ft shallow 8ft deep, roman shaped with bumped out step.

Here's why:

the top 3' level of pool is LESS than a full 18 x 38 rectangle, assuming your measurements are greatest length and width measurements. In other words, the top part of your pool will fit into a rectangular box, 18 x 38 x 3. But your water depth is going to be LESS than the maximum pool depth, which is normally stated to overflow level, rather than actual water level. So the box is 18 x 38 x 2.8 cft or about 1850 cft OR 13,800 gallons.

Most vinyl pools have nearly flat shallow ends, and the break begins at the midway point. That in turn means that the bottom or deeper section of your pool will fit inside a rectangular box that is 18 x 38/2 x (7.8 - 2.8) or 18 x 19 x 5. That means the absolute maximum volume in the deeper section of your pool is 1710 cft or 12,800.

So, even if your pool was shaped as 2 stacked rectangular boxes, with right angles and no slopes, the upper box (18x38x2.8) resting on the lower box (18x19x5), your absolute maximum pool volume would be 26,600 gallons. If you add 500 gallons for the steps, you'd still only be 27,100 gallons.

BUT, the shape of almost all vinyl pool 'hoppers' -- deeper sections -- is highly sloped, with only a SMALL flat rectangular area at the full depth. Most hoppers are LESS than 1/2 the volume of a rectangular box with the same dimensions. In that case, your pool volume (if we use a hopper at 1/2 rather than something less would be 13,800 (top) + 500 (steps) + 12,800/2 (bottom) or 20,700 or ~21,000 gallons.

If you want an more accurate measure, if you can find the "DIG DRAWING" for your liner, it will usually have a very accurate CAD calculated volume for that pool & liner . . . at the OVERFLOW level of your pool. So, if the normal level is 6" below the OVERFLOW level, you need to take the CAD volume, and subtract 18x38x0.5x 7.48 gal/cft, or 2550 gallons from the CAD measurement.

Pool builders and pool stores almost ALWAYS overstate pool volumes!

Plus I can tell you -- having taught numerous Certified Pool Operator classes, a majority of pool builders can not calculate pool volumes accurately. Trying to get them through that part of the material was always a struggle.

[SnoopysGirl]

Ben, I am so very grateful for the amount of time you and the staff here have spent helping me with my pool. Thank you! I have read through all of the posts from page one, and I am going to do the following things:

1. Test FC, CC & pH daily with the Taylor K2006 kit.

2. Purchase HEDP and Culator to remove any copper and other metals from the pool.

3. Return the Inhibit Algicide and purchase Polyquat 60 Algicide, and use that to prevent an algae outbreak.

4. Purchase and use Borax to raise pH if/when needed (not sure on amount to use - can use guide)

5. When trichlor tablets are gone, begin to use liquid chlorine from hardware store at 10% strength. I am confident in the %, as the store goes through a lot of the bleach for a local company, and it is stored in air conditioning. Based on the Best Guess Chlorine chart, I will want my chlorine level at 8-15 ppm. Based on the calculations provided, 5.5 x 0.10 x 8.5 = 4.7 ppm of chlorine per gallon - adjusting the amount per pool needs. *Question* do I add chlorine to 8-15 ppm daily, or add chlorine to 15, then let it drop to 8 ppm, and do I have a good understanding of how I am to be chlorinating the pool?

6. This is the only part I don't understand: Bromide - I don't know what I need this for, and when I would use it.

I hope I have a good handle on all of the information provided in this thread and on the website. Thank you, also, for the pool volume explanation.

[SnoopysGirl]

In waiting for Ben to reply, I have taken a photo of the stain that is developing in my pool. I think it is probably iron, but I guess it could also be copper. I did the ascorbic acid test today. Here is my photo:

http://i47.tinypic.com/4j189h.jpg

Will the HEDP lift this stain, or does that just take metals already in the water OUT of the water? I am thinking that I will need to treat the stain. Stain treating products have specific recommendations for pool chemistry, and unless there is some miracle product out there, I won't be reducing the CYA by the amount needed. Any advice would be great - thank you!!

[PoolDoc]

The last test indicates that the CYA is 270.

This is the only part I don't understand: Bromide - I don't know what I need this for, and when I would use it.

Assuming the CYA=270 is still correct, sodium bromide will allow you to kill algae without having to raise your chlorine level to 100 ppm or something like that. We're going to TRY to avoid having algae. But, you don't want to bet the farm on succeeding, so you need a backup plan in case you fail. Sodium bromide can be hard to buy locally, so I'm recommending that you purchase it, keep it on hand, but hopefully, never actually use it!


I did the ascorbic acid test today. . . . . Will the HEDP lift this stain, or does that just take metals already in the water OUT of the water?

HEDP might lift the stain, but probably won't. It also won't take the metals OUT of the water; it does EXACTLY the OPPOSITE! It keeps the metals IN the water. The clean up sequence is:

1. Ascorbic acid lifts the stain OFF the steps, and puts the metals IN the water.
2. HEDP *keeps* the metals in the water, once you re-chlorinate (which destroys the ascorbic acid)
3. The CuLator unit + constant filtration REMOVES the metals FROM the water.

All three steps are essential.

[SnoopysGirl]

I visited the pool store today. Unfortunately, they didn't have the HEDP so I will have to order that. They did say that it is fine to use the liquid chlorine, and they did also show my level of CYA at between 270-300, so they didn't try to sell me more stabilized chlorine, though they did recently sell me a BioGuard shock product and told me to use that to chlorinate the pool. Unfortunately, that is also stabilized chlorine, so it will also increase my CYA level.

Question: when reading online, an article mentioned that salt is a byproduct of using liquid bleach in a pool. Is this correct, and if so, is my water going to taste salty? How do I prevent that??

[aylad]

Salt is a byproduct of using bleach in the pool, but the amount is negligible--you won't be able to tell. I've been using bleach in my pool for 11 years now, and the water still doesn't taste salty.

Janet

[SnoopysGirl]

Thank you, Janet.

Also, does HEDP add phosphates to the pool, and can this grow algae? Of course, the Polyquat would take care of algae, but I am just curious if this is bad.

[PoolDoc]

Also, does HEDP add phosphates to the pool, and can this grow algae?

Phosphonates like HEDP eventually break down into phosphates -- which is why we recommend AGAINST using HEDP unless you have a specific need to do so. But, phosphates don't grow algae, any more than carbon dioxide "grows" algae or any other plants. Both phosphates and carbon dioxide are necessary for plant growth, including algal growth. But, just as ALL pools have carbon dioxide, but not all pools have algae, so not all pools with phosphates have algae!

[SnoopysGirl]

Thank you again. Here is my update today with one (hopefully last) question, and I hope I am not bothering :\

Today:
FC 6.2 ppm (still using up pucks, will be gone very soon)
CC 0.2 ppm
pH 7.4
Alk 190
CYA 270
CH 420
(tested using Taylor K2006A)

I have ordered the Kemtek HEDP and will use that as soon as it arrives. I will be using the liquid chlorine as soon as the pucks are gone. Since I have never used the liquid chlorine, I have to admit that I am a little nervous about it. Will I be adding chlorine daily, or will I be adding it every few days? Every week? I will be testing it daily, just am not sure how often I should be adding it. I will not be shocking the pool weekly, correct? I will still be adding the algicide weekly. Thank you, again, I am looking forward to having my CYA drop soon :)

[PoolDoc]

With a CYA level of 270, you'll be adding it 1 - 2x per week.

Add 5 gallons; wait 4 hours and then test. If it's really 10% bleach (and if your gallons figure is accurate), you should see a chlorine level > 20 ppm.

Assuming all goes well, add 5 more gallons the following day, to get yourself closer to the 'can kill algae w/ 270 ppm CYA' level.

Using the HEDP is fine . . . but keep in mind that it's effect is temporary. To REMOVE the copper, you may need a CuLator unit, OR to do some shocking with calcium hypochlorite shock. (BUT, get specific direction that DIFFER from label directions BEFORE doing this.)

[SnoopysGirl]

Hello, I wanted to update. I have been using the bleach for a few days now. I received the HEDP. I have a question about it. The ChemTek HEDP says that it is a "clarifier." I have been using SeaKlear Clarifier for the past two years, and I really like it. The SeaKlear also says that it removes metals from the pool. Can I use the SeaKlear regularly to help remove metals from the pool (in conjunction with the Culator)? I received the ChemTek HEDP online, and I can get SeaKlear closer to home.

Also, SeaKlear makes a citric acid based stain remover. Is this something I can consider using to remove the stain on the steps and pool liner?

Thank you!

[PoolDoc]

"ChemTek" or "KemTek"? There are many "ChemTek" companies.

No pool chemical I know of is LABELED as HEDP; many contain HEDP; the few listed, and even fewer linked to Amazon are ones I could identify as CONTAINING HEDP, and nothing else. And, it doesn't look like the "Kem-Tek Metal and Calcium Eliminator" calls itself a "clarifier". Look at what you've got, and then look at this photo:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Q3lEb8yUHSU/T3ogDLwbtMI/AAAAAAAAB7I/jVXhvmaACU0/s800/Kem-tek-HEDP-20.jpg

I'm guessing, you've gotten the wrong thing.

Citric acid is a less effective and cheaper product than ascorbic acid. Like ascorbic acid it is COMPLETELY incompatible with chlorine. Unlike ascorbic acid, some nasty by-products form when you began re-chlorinating citric acid.

Also, you need to put on your thinking had a minute. You say

I have been using SeaKlear Clarifier for the past two years . . . The SeaKlear also says that it removes metals from the pool.
But, if it were actually true that SeaKlear "removed" metals . . . you wouldn't be having a green hair problem!

[SnoopysGirl]

Hi Ben,

Sorry for the misunderstanding and misspelling.

It is: Kem-Tek Metal & Calcium Eliminator, as in the photo above. As you can see on the bottom center, it says "Clarify," which is why I classified it as a clarifier, same as SeaKlear. SeaKelar states on the package that it "removes excess metals," but I had been using it only sporadically when needed, and not every time I was adding water or the copper-containing product to the pool.

That is why I was asking about it, and why it might not have been effective in removing the stain buildup on my steps, liner, or hair.

I did forget to mention in my previous posts that I do have the Culator unit. When I add another bag, if you are still interested in seeing results, I can open up the used bag and post a picture with my findings so you can see it's performance.

[PoolDoc]

As you can see on the bottom center, it says "Clarify," which is why I classified it as a clarifier, same as SeaKlear.

Duh. Do I feel really stupid, or just stupid? I'm going with "just stupid". ;)

No, it's not a clarifier. It's amazing how often merchants use descriptions that are at odds with the actual contents of their products -- it's not just pool companies, either.

And NEITHER product actually removes metals from your pool! (How could they: both the 'remedy' and the metals are wholly within the pool!) The CuLator only 'removes' the metals, when you finally throw the bag away! And NONE of the three products remove stains (ie, re-dissolve the metal back into the pool water!)

Don't cut a bag for my sake, but I'd love to have pics when you do so -- post them here with Picasa, Photobucket or whatever, or send them to poolforum@gmail.com

[SnoopysGirl]

Great, will do (regarding the Culator). I do understand what you are saying about the "metal removal" description. It is curious why those claims are made on the package.

[PoolDoc]

It is curious why those claims are made on the package.

Not curious; just sad. Maybe the only market segment in the US that lies as much as attorneys do, are advertisers and marketers. Worse, some legal changes in the fiduciary obligations of officers of public held companies apparently REQUIRE them to rip-off customers as much as is profitable, so long as it won't put them in jail.

Ironically, these laws seem to have arisen as a result of John Q Public's envy and resentment of the rich kids created by family owned companies. Such companies have their own problems, but tend to take a longer view of their relationship with their customers. However punitive inheritance laws have mostly put an end to multi-generational mid-sized companies!

[SnoopysGirl]

Thank you so much for the advice. I can see that there are color changes in the Culator, and I will post those when I change out the bag. I have subscribed to the forum, so I hope you can see that. Let me know if you have any questions about that. I have two additional questions, and one is a pool structural one that I would like to get opinions about, and post pictures. Please let me know if you'd like me to post that here or start a new thread. Thanks again so much for all of the help!!!!

[PoolDoc]

Start a new thread, please. We try to keep topics separate.

By the way, you posts will no longer be moderated, as soon as the server completes its daily cycle. (I can do it manually, but then it tangles the database records a bit.)

Please DO get pictures of the CuLator, when you can!

[SnoopysGirl]

I changed the Culator today - figured it will be easier for me to remember to change at the first of the month, and it was close enough to the date that I first put the bag into the skimmer basket. As my title indicated, we were having a problem with green hair, and I suspected that copper was the problem. I was adding copper with the BioGuard Shock product. Also, we have some staining on our pool this summer, which I suspect is iron from our water supply. While we have city water, we have had drought conditions this year, and I think the water has a higher iron content because of it. Here are the pictures from the Culator:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2hnrp86.jpg
While the color looks greenish, I think it is due to the copper plus iron in the water. There are areas in the packet that are more blue, and then some more yellow.

http://i47.tinypic.com/30nbuvq.jpg
This shows a really blue area of the powder.

http://i48.tinypic.com/66ixjs.jpg
Another closer view with some yellow.

I think the Culator is really working in our pool. My daughter had really green hair at the end of June, and it has since turned back to her normal color. She swims nearly every day. My hair was also turning green, and though I don't swim daily, since using this plus the Kem-Tek, our hair is looking great. I really appreciate all of the help!

[waterbear]

The SeaKlear product is a chitosan based clarifier. While it will remove a tiny amount of metal ions from the water by absorption and then, in theory, but allowing the absorbed metal to be filter out, it is by no means anywhere near as effective as a sequestrant like HEDP which chelates the metal ions and deactivate them so they cannot react chemically.

Also, for future reference, to remove the green from the hair you can put two teaspoons of citric acid (sold in some grocery store spice sections as "sour salt (http://www.amazon.com/MARSHALLS-CREEK-SPICES-Citric-Acid/dp/B003F7WX4Q/ref=pd_sim_sbs_gro_1)" used in Kosher cooking, in 8 oz of warm water and pour it through the hair and let it sit until the green is gone, rinse for a full five minutes with warm water, shampoo and condition. If all the green is not lifted you can repeat the process.

[Watermom]

Ben,
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it is necessary to change out the Culator pack monthly??

[PoolDoc]

Monthly change out is what Periodic Products (the mfg) recommends, but I suspect that recommendation has more to do with their sales goals, than with necessity.

From their own data, it appears that color intensity indicates when the product is 'consumed'. In the pictures above, the CuLator looks to me like it still has a LOT of use left.

A cautious approach might be to put a new CuLator in beside a month old one. That way, if the older one really is failing, the pool is protected. But if it is NOT failing you'd be able to determine that, as the older unit continues to darken in color.

[SnoopysGirl]

The SeaKlear product is a chitosan based clarifier. While it will remove a tiny amount of metal ions from the water by absorption and then, in theory, but allowing the absorbed metal to be filter out, it is by no means anywhere near as effective as a sequestrant like HEDP which chelates the metal ions and deactivate them so they cannot react chemically.

Also, for future reference, to remove the green from the hair you can put two teaspoons of citric acid (sold in some grocery store spice sections as "sour salt (http://www.amazon.com/MARSHALLS-CREEK-SPICES-Citric-Acid/dp/B003F7WX4Q/ref=pd_sim_sbs_gro_1)" used in Kosher cooking, in 8 oz of warm water and pour it through the hair and let it sit until the green is gone, rinse for a full five minutes with warm water, shampoo and condition. If all the green is not lifted you can repeat the process.

Thank you so much for the comments about the clarifier and the info on the green hair remedy. We used ketchup, and it did work somewhat. I will try the salt suggestion if we have more problems.


Ben,
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it is necessary to change out the Culator pack monthly??


Monthly change out is what Periodic Products (the mfg) recommends, but I suspect that recommendation has more to do with their sales goals, than with necessity.

From their own data, it appears that color intensity indicates when the product is 'consumed'. In the pictures above, the CuLator looks to me like it still has a LOT of use left.

A cautious approach might be to put a new CuLator in beside a month old one. That way, if the older one really is failing, the pool is protected. But if it is NOT failing you'd be able to determine that, as the older unit continues to darken in color.

It does say to change it out monthly. I thought the powder looked pretty "used," but I don't have much experience with it.

I have a question about copper in the pool. Since my original post (I believe it was June) I have not added any more of the bioguard product (the one that contained copper). The new Culator packet that I just added on August 1st is already turning blue (I can see it through the outside of the cloth bag). Also, I am still accumulating stains on the pool, even though I have the Culator and the HEDP Kem-Tek product that I am adding with each water fill. I thought that the brownish stains on the pool were iron (possibly from fill water), but could they be copper? This is the first year that we have really heated the pool, and I am wondering if possibly we are also getting copper in the pool from the heating element, which might cause the brownish stains on the pool? Unfortunately, the pipes go from the pump, through the filter, through the heating element, and then back through the pool. There is no way for me to run the water past the heater, even if the heater wasn't running.

Thanks for any feedback.

[PoolDoc]

It's possible -- even likely --that you have BOTH iron and copper in your pool. Brown stains ARE iron (or if dark coffee brown, manganese, but that's unlikely unless you have well water).

If you keep the pH above 7, it's unlikely you are dissolving copper into the pool. But, iron's another matter. Is your pool water exposed to iron or steel anywhere?