Newbie to Forum...Looking for help

[fairfieldmania]

So...I have a gunite/plaster pool...27500 (about) gallons...this is my fourth year...the other three years, I've had an algae problem here and there, but this last season, I didn't put closing chemicals in the pool (had my first child at the time, too many other things on my mind) and severely paid for it this season...pool was opened and it was really, really green...after getting the water reasonably clear (still couldn't see bottom at deep end), pool company came in to vacuum pool...he commented pool was low on alkalinity and CYA so they added both at the same time...result was a stain on all the walls of the pool that I couldn't get out (not with extreme scrubbing and chlorine levels)...recommended by same pool company (I know I am an idiot) to have pool drained and acid watched...that was done and now pool is crystal clear...problem is (among many) I can't get my levels in check...here are the results from the pool store today:

FC - 0.0
TC - 0.1 ppm
CC - 0.1 ppm
pH - 8.0
Hardness - 110 ppm
alkalinity - 71 ppm
CYA - 30 ppm

since refilling pool, I've added about 2 pounds of CYA, 10 lbs alkalinity and 14 lbs hardness, 5 lbs of shock (no bump in chlorine levels), another 5 lbs hardness (started at 80 got it 160)...and that brings us to today's readings....pool store there must have been an issue with hardness reading of 110 from the 160...so they just recommended testing that down the road again...

Can I get some assistance? Not sure how to get the ph down while getting the alkalinity up....some sites say to take care of alkalinity first...

I have about 6 3" chlorine tabs in pool....

thanks ahead of time...

[aylad]

I would very strongly suggest that you get your own test kit and not rely on pool store testing. Pool store testing is designed to sell chemicals. Check out the K-2006 kit in the testkits link in my sig--that's the one we recommend to everybody.

The first thing you're going to need to do is get some chlorine in the pool, and it doesn't look like the trichlor tabs are doing the job. I would add a gallon and a half of plain, generic, ultra bleach. Each gallon of 6% bleach you add will raise your FC by 2. 2ppm, so the extra half gallon will kick it up to3.3 ppm....and with a CYA of 30, you're going to need to keep your chlorine at a minimum of 3 ppm at all times, otherwise the algae will come back (see the best guess chlorine chart linked in my sig for the chart and more explanation on that). This may mean that you have to test and add another gallon during the day tomorrow. I would also test your chlorine tonight after the sun is off the pool, and again in the morning before the sun hits the pool. If you've lost more than 1 ppm of chlorine in that time, then there's something in the water creating the demand, and you need to shock the pool (shock level for CYA of 30 would be chlorine of 15 ppm) to kill off whatever it is.

Since your alk is going to come down with the ph when you add acid (read the "using muriatic acid" link in my sig, before doing so), you can raise the Alk using arm & Hammer baking soda, which will raise the alk with very little effect on pH. Then when you have the alk up, you can use the muriatic acid to bring the pH down. The alk will come back down with it, but if it only comes back to 70 or so, then that's fine.

You do need a calcium level between 200-400 for a plaster pool, to keep the water from leaching the calcium from the plaster. You can add it via calcium flakes, or if you have cal-hypo on hand, use that for chlorination for awhile and it will raise calcium and chlorine at the same time.

Of course, you're going to need to be able to test your own water to straighten this out without the pool store breaking you--did you order your kit yet? :)

Welcome to the forum!!

[fairfieldmania]

just to be clear...are you saying to add MA first or add alk first??? I believe you are saying to add alk first and then add MA, correct? I have both on hand....in terms of the calcium...how long should I wait after I add the alk and MA?? Better question...if I add the alk now (7 PM EST), when should I add the MA??? and then how long to add the calcium???

after I posted my OP and before you had replied...I hopped on amazon and ordered the taylor K-2006...should be here by end of the week....

aside...any thoughts on how I got the stains before I had pool acid washed??? was it from adding alk and cya at the same time?? (my theory) there were no metals in pool (I believe) because I had it tested while stains were on there and pool company indicated no metals...(copper, etc)...maybe there was..who knows...

[fairfieldmania]

also...new water is only 5 days old....why are you thinking there is something that is creating that demand on chlorine?? something in the city water??? there can't be algae since pool was completed cleaned...I opened the DE filter and washed it with water and MA...

[aylad]

I'm suggesting that you raise the alk first, and then lower the pH with the acid. However, let me have Pooldoc check in on this thread before I advise you further, because if you do the baking soda and calcium too close together, or in the wrong doses, it can severely cloud your pool..

[aylad]

also...new water is only 5 days old....why are you thinking there is something that is creating that demand on chlorine?? something in the city water??? there can't be algae since pool was completed cleaned......

If you added 5 pounds of chlorine, and saw no chlorine bump, then yes, I think there is something (probably a nascent algae bloom) that is creating a demand on the chlorine. I'm not saying there was anything in the city water to begin with, but I am suggesting that it only takes a day or so with a chlorine level of zero for algae to start growing. That's why I want you to test your chlorine levels as I described above, to rule out or confirm a chlorine demand.

[PoolDoc]

Chlorine demand or not . . . don't take a chance. Add 6 gallons of PLAIN 6% bleach ASAP, and then every evening till your kit is here!

Alkalinity and calcium are NOT urgent issues. Given your pH, nothing bad's about to happen on that front. Run your filter 24/7 and ADD THAT BLEACH!

And, please fill out the chart:

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

For now, keep the chlorine high, the pH between 7 & 8, run the filter 24/7 and don't worry about anything else till later.

[fairfieldmania]

a little concern on the bleach...this was the first year i used bleach as opposed to shock...and it was the same year I had stains on the walls I couldn't get rid of....and had to do the acid wash...still not clear what caused the stains...whether it was the pool company adding alk and CYA at the same time...or me using the "wrong bleach" (I know I bought the unscented plain 6% one)...or lack of closing chemicals...i do have the shock in hand...will add it now...

[fairfieldmania]

Doh...newb alert...so when I added 5 lbs of shock the other day and it didn't dent the chlorine level...I actually added 5 lbs of Dupont Multifunctional Shock with 15% sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione and 9.53% available chlorine...it is mostly a oxidizer meant to be "added weekly for sparkling clarity.." no wonder it didn't move the chlorine level...so I just added 3 lbs of granular shock...let's see what happens in the morning.....if the level holds...then I/we could focus on ph and alk...

[aylad]

One thing that most folks don't realize is that "shock" is a verb, not a noun--to shock the pool means to raise the chlorine level higher than normal. The chemical companies package various forms of chlorine (and whatever "mystery goop" they want to add) and call them "shock". So...I have no idea what's in the "shock" that you're adding, except some dichlor. I would not add any of that to the pool. What is the ingredient in the "granular shock" that you're using?

I doubt very, very seriously that the bleach is what stained your pool. Bleach is sodium hypochlorite--the exact same thing that liquid pool chlorine is. When you add it to your pool water, it breaks down into chlorine and a little salt water. That's it. Nothing that would stain the pool. Now....the other "multifunctional shock" you're using? There's no telling....

Janet

[fairfieldmania]

I am using ortex algae pool shock...68% calcium hypochlorite (provides 68% available chlorine)...
doubt it was the dupont treatment....as I was exclusively adding bleach when the stains showed up (stains showed up same day pool co had added the alk and CYA, coincidence???)..

i had grabbed the dupont thinking it was shock...only after I had drained the pool and refilled it...meaning within the last few days...

[fairfieldmania]

ok, checked pool this morning with test strips (I know, I know)...and the pool held wonderfully the chlorine level over night...now I just need some guidance on the ph and alk and hardness...I believe the recommendation is to wait until I have the Taylor test kit...so I will wait to report test results until then..and keep an eye on chlorine levels....

[PoolDoc]

One caution: usually people overestimate their pool's volume, but if your dimensions are correct (25 x 50 x 4 + 12' deep end) your volume is closer to 42,000 gallons, with a PF:3

That means one gallon of plain 6% household bleach only adds 1.5 ppm of chlorine to your pool, and that one pound of stabilizer only increases your CYA level by 3 ppm.

[fairfieldmania]

sorry...rushed those in yesterday....dimensions

41 L x 22 W (long part of L)
20 L x 18 W (short part of L)
3' deep at shallow
8' deep at deep end

[PoolDoc]

OK; 38,500 gallons.

[fairfieldmania]

ok...we seem to be on two different pages....I am using this website....

http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm

take each part of the pool as two rectangles....

first rectangle...21 x 22 x 3 (LXWXD) = 10367 us gallons
second rectangle....20 X 18 X 8 (starts at 6 ends at 8) = 18850 us gallons

total- 29,000 gallons...take out the steps...curves of walls, etc...about 27,500 gallons...can you walk me through your calcs....in the mean time, I will try to find the pool info through the packet we were given from previous owner...

[PoolDoc]

I'm not sure what you are measuring; you'll need to submit a sketch, for me to be clear.

[fairfieldmania]

the pool is a L shaped....

_________L_______
| 2 |
|_________ | W
| 1 |
|________|

If you extend the vertical line between sections 1 and 2, it would separate the shallow end from the deep end and in essence create two rectangles. Rectangle 1 representing the shallow end and rectangle 2 representing the deep end. The diving board is along the left vertical lines

rectangle 1 - 21 x 22 x 3 (LXWXD)
rectangle 2 - 20 X 18 X 8 (starts at 6' ends at 8' deep) the 6' section (more or less) runs along the vertical line between rectangle 1 and 2

[fairfieldmania]

Ok, got the Talyor test kit yesterday in the mail...I have been in the habit of adding two bags of calcium hypochlorite every other day at night...alternating with 6% bleach....Monday night - two bags...Wednesday night - two 1.42 gallons of 6% bleach...Friday night - two bags...etc...

I added two bags of cal-hypo last night....Onto my results

FC 5.8 (29 drops *0.2 using 25 mL)
CC 0.4 (2 drops * 0.2 using 25 mL)
pH 8.0
TA 90
CH 190
CA N/A didn't register..not sure if I did it wrong
SI 0.35
Temp 82

[Watermom]

Those numbers look pretty good other than the pH being a little high. You can use some muriatic acid to lower it. Read the muriatic link in my signature below.

The way you do the test is to fill the little bottle to the 7ml level with pool water and then fill to the 14ml line with the R-0013. Cap it and mix it and then wait at least 30 seconds. Then, holding the test block at waist level in natural light, slowly squeeze the contents of the bottle into the tube, noting when you can no longer see the black dot. If it doesn't get cloudy, then your CYA level is less than 30.

How long has it been since you used dichlor, added CYA separately and used trichlor pucks? You'll want 40-50ppm of CYA in there. So, you'll need to use one of the three mentioned to bring it up some.

By the way, use the 10ml testing sample instead of the 25ml. It will save on your reagents.

[fairfieldmania]

It's interesting comparing the pool numbers to mine. According to them, the pH was the same, but hardness was lower than I tested, and alkalinity was lower than I tested...enough to make you buy their stuff to bring those parameters up...which I admit...I did before I tested it with the Taylor kit...

A question about adding the muriatic acid to bring down the pH...will it lower the TA as well??...that is main reason I joined this forum...if you read my second entry on this thread...that is what I am confused about....how do I lower my pH without affecting my TA??...at the time back in early July, I thought I had low TA as well, but now I see I am good there...

CYA - I performed the test as instructed in the manual and as you described above...but for some reason, even though the pool company test showed I was good on CYA...the Taylor test did not show enough to register...(I still saw the black hole at the bottom)...I guess I'll add another pound of CYA....I'm nervous about adding too much without allowing what i've added already to fully dissolve...

I only use trichlor pucks and then the combination of cal-hypo and 6% bleach...

I'm going to test the FC level tonight to see if I could back off the two bags of cal-hypo or two 1.42 gallons of 6% bleach every other day....does that seem like too much???

[BigDave]

Lowering your pH will lower your TA. Shouldn't be a problem unless you see your pH moving quickly (couple days) to 7.0 or 8.0. If pH is bouncing, add some Baking Soda to raise TA - pH will go up a little but not much from the Baking Soda.

[PoolDoc]

Don't worry about TA. Adjust the pH, till it's just below 8.0. The reason is not that 8.0 is bad, given your low CH and TA. The reason is that an 8.0 reading -- except with a pH meter proper calibrated using 2 pH buffer solutions -- usually means 8.0 OR HIGHER, and not 8.0 EXACTLY.

After that, we'll need to take a look at your CH level, and then your TA level. But, you'll need to keep your pH below 8.0 the whole time. Just below is fine, but at least a little below.

Also, until you have a significant level of stabilizer (CA, or CYA as we use it here) you can't back off on the chlorine UNLESS you have a completely cloudy day. Given that you have low TA and a low CH, using cal hypo would be preferable to bleach, if you have both.

[fairfieldmania]

wait...I have low CH and TA now??

Or are you saying once I lower the pH with MA, they will come down? The first reply to my numbers was to decrease my pH and everything else was fine...but now are you saying my CH and TA are low?? Based on Taylor's manual and information around the web, TA of 90 and CH of 190 are in range no???

[PoolDoc]

You reported 2 sets of numbers:

alkalinity - 71 ppm
Hardness - 110 ppm

TA 90
CH 190

Both are on the low end of things. They are not too low, with a pH of 7.8, but they are too low for a concrete pool, if the pH is 7.2. I don't trust the pool store readings, but I've learned to be cautious about test results the first few times someone uses a K2006.

So, I want to you to keep the pH low enough so that we know for sure it's not REALLY 8.8, and then look at things again.

[fairfieldmania]

ok, I added the muriatic acid Tuesday night...I winged the amount....I also added a pound of CYA on Tuesday night...I don't feel it is fully dissolved...as I see a bump in my DE filter pressure, but it hasn't come back down....and then added two bags of cal-hypo last night....readings this morning:

FC 8.8
CC 0.4
pH 7.8
Alk 100
CH 200
CYA still didn't register, although it did seem a little cloudier based on memory from the first test
Sat Index 0.5
Water Temp 80

Suggestions???

[Watermom]

How does your water look? I'd suggest using cal-hypo a little while longer to bring your calcium hardness reading up some. Did you and Ben ever agree on the volume of the pool? Either way -- you have a large volume pool and the best I can tell from a quick scan through this long thread is that you have added 3 lbs. of CYA and used a few pucks. Is that right? You're gonna need to get some CYA in there or it is going to be a pain in the rear to keep chlorine in this pool.

Did you fill in the pool chart like Ben asked you to do back in post #7? I looked in the chart, but unless I missed it, I didn't find your info. If you haven't done so, please add it. It helps people be better able to advise you.

[fairfieldmania]

pool is perfect...great color...clean....

i have some left over bags of calcium hardness from the pool store..that I can throw in...sounds like you are saying to take care of that first? before solving low TA and high pH...

I've thrown in the following up to now after I previously had the pool drained and acid washed....3 lbs of CYA...10 lbs of alk...19 lbs of hardness...and then several pucks and bags of cal-hypo...

no, we never agreed on the size...i actually found the original drawing for the pool in my files...how do I provide that info?? it only shows l, w, and d

I did fill out the pool chart...i rushed the numbers in and the later posted correct numbers..not sure if any moderator updated my information...

forgive me for being blunt...but I am still searching for the answer of how do I bring up my ALK without bringing down the pH? That is the answer I am looking for and the main reason I have joined this forum...it's been almost two weeks and that is the one answer I am looking for...I know have my proper test kit and much better understanding of pool issues in reading through the forum, so many thanks for that...but I'm trying to figure out how the relationship of low TA and high pH....which one do i take care of first...how much should I put in...how long do I wait to take care of the other parameter...that type of guidance.....

Also, I clearly am not a spammer...I am a dedicated pool owner who respectfully has posted on this site....does the approval process by a moderator still need to be in place??...i believe that is one of the reasons...almost two weeks have passed....obviously waiting for the taylor kit coming in the mail is the other...

thanks ahead of time

[BigDave]

To be equally direct, you question was answered on July 2.
...Since your alk is going to come down with the ph when you add acid (read the "using muriatic acid" link in my sig, before doing so), you can raise the Alk using arm & Hammer baking soda, which will raise the alk with very little effect on pH. Then when you have the alk up, you can use the muriatic acid to bring the pH down. The alk will come back down with it, but if it only comes back to 70 or so, then that's fine...Welcome to the forum!!

[fairfieldmania]

yes, I had read that the first time, but I had posted some follow-up questions to that post that I was looking for some guidance....please see below...

just to be clear...are you saying to add MA first or add alk first??? I believe you are saying to add alk first and then add MA, correct? I have both on hand....in terms of the calcium...how long should I wait after I add the alk and MA?? Better question...if I add the alk now (7 PM EST), when should I add the MA??? and then how long to add the calcium???

that direction back on Jul 2nd actually had me adjust the ALK first and then the pH and a couple of days ago, I was advised to get the pH down and then worry about the ALK....I was looking for some specific guidance...I lowered the pH to 7.8...and now the suggestion is to use baking soda? How much? in skimmer?? again, just looking for some direction on this forum....thanks ahead of time...

[PoolDoc]

This is the order of priority:

1. Maintain an adequate chlorine level
2. Maintain a pH level of 7.8 or below, but not much below.
3. Establish an adequate stabilizer level.
4. THEN look at your calcium and alkalinity levels and see if adjustments are necessary.

Attention mods and support team members: there is a LSI calculator, here:
http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/langelier/index/langelier.htm
If you run her numbers (TA:100; CH:200 with a TDS of 2000 and a water temp of 85F (note the F/C selector!) you'll see that she's LDI neutral at 7.4 and slightly OVERsaturated at 7.8. So currently there is ZERO need to add calcium OR alkalinity. In general, a high TA is NOT a benefit, and with her pH, any corrosion that occurred, even with much lower TA and CH would be VERY slow.

[fairfieldmania]

ok, readings this morning...didn't add any shock last night as I thought the 8.8 from Thursday morning would last another day...I was sort of right...there is a little chlorine in the pool but not much....

FC 1.2
CC 0.0
pH 7.6
ALK 110
CH 210
CYA N/A
SI 0.05
TEMP 80

at this point, I think I am ok with parameters other than FC and CC...just keep up with the chlorine? is that the suggestion?? I do need some CYA so I will add another pound tonight...the test still didn't register...

[PoolDoc]

Add chlorine!!

+ If you need stabilizer, and have access to a Sams Club, buy their 24 pack of 1# bags of dichlor shock (www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=108822). Each bag will add about 7 ppm of chlorine, and about 6 ppm of stabilizer, per 10K gallons of water. Otherwise, order dichlor from Amazon:
Kem-Tek Dichlor 22 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZA/poolbooks)We do NOT recommend buying dichlor locally, otherwise, at least until you are an EXPERT reader of chemical labels. The chlorinating pool chemicals sold at Walmart, Kmart, Costco, and most other local stores are diluted blends, sometimes with copper and other products with bad side-effects.