Caltreat for lowering calcium hardness in pools

[Linda needs help]

Has anyone heard of this product or used it to reduce calcium levels? Saw it online but not really sure if it works or we are throwing money away.

[Watermom]

I know nothing about it. Maybe Ben has heard of it, but I sorta doubt it or I think we would have had it mentioned on the forum before now. I'll ask him.

[Linda needs help]

Are there other ways of eliminating/ significantly decreasing high calcium and hardness levels if you do not have the ability to vacuum to waste? Or are there companies you can bring in to vacuum to waste? We have been using Sustain for >10 years. Our pool is now cloudy, and the only measurement out of whack is the hardness/calcium. My husband already did 1 water exchange- drained most of the pool and refilled, but it is still high.
We are also considering changes chemicals. What chemicals work without adding calcium/hardness?
We have a vinyl pool/ Hayward filter (not allowed to use sand in our area), 22000 gal inground pool.
Is salt system better?

[aylad]

There are lots of choices for you that don't include calcium. However, we really need a little more info to accurately answer your questions. Can you post a complete set of water tests for us to see? Preferably drop- based results-- strips don't count!!

[Linda needs help]

Total chlorine 2.8
free chlorine 2.4
pH 7.6
Total alkalinity 90
Calcium Hardness 475
Stabilizer 30
Water appearance cloudy

We added 10 lbs of alka plus to raise alkalinity, which then looked OK by strip testing.
These numbers are after the drain/refill.
Cleaning filter on daily basis (filter is new). Get lots of white/ cloudy stuff/ milky coming off of filter when hosed down.
This has been with pump on 24/7 for about 1 1/2 -2 weeks, and still can barely see the drain on the bottom.

[PoolDoc]

Total alkalinity 90
Calcium Hardness 475

We added 10 lbs of alka plus to raise alkalinity, which then looked OK by strip testing.

Who in the world told you to add 10# of baking soda, with a calcium level of 475?? They did you no favors. Were you having scale or cloudiness problems with the pool before you drained & replaced, or did the same pool store tell "YOU HAVE TO DRAIN, OR THE SKY WILL FALL!"?

Anyhow, do all these things:

1. Add 4 gallons of PLAIN 6% household bleach, and then turn off your pump. Wait 24 hours and see if the stuff will settle.

2. If you don't have one, order a K2006 so you can test for yourself. Read the kit instructions, but IGNORE their water treatment guidelines!

3. Post your pool data again, but include what test kit you are using AND your EXACT pump and filter info (you're probably going to need a new cartridge!).

4. If at all possible, take some pictures of your pump, filter, and piping . . . and then mail them to poolforum@gmail.com. You may be able to vac-to-waste more easily than you think.

Regarding Cal Treat, United Chemical has NOT made an MSDS sheet available. Historically, that company has used both phosphates and oxalic acid in their products. Both can be used to precipitate calcium, but oxalic acid is toxic so I think they would have to make an MSDS sheet available. Consequently, I assume that Cal Treat is phosphate based. UC's products tend to work, but it's been my impression that they mostly are a devil's bargain: you get what you want, now, but you pay a price, later. Phosphate precipitation could work that way, helping you remove calcium at the price of a phosphate laden pool that is VERY algae friendly.

However, the calcium carbonate cloud you've got right now can also be filtered . . . . if you have a filter in good condition. Ironically, using Sustain to chlorinate would help get filter out out.

But, gimme the data, and I'll give you some more info, once I see what is likely to work on your pool.

[Linda needs help]

We will add the bleach now and get back to you after we recheck the numbers.
We have figured out how to vacuum to waste. Do you still need the pictures of the pump/filter/piping?

(the pool stores told us to add the baking soda and a second store told us to drain the water)

We are currently using an Aquacheck meter in addition to strips to check the pool chemistries. Is this good enough or do we need to get the K2006 test kit (AquaChek® TruTest® Digital Test Strip Reader)- it gives actual numbers.

We are currently using Sustain and know that it produces calcium as a byproduct. The pool stores are telling us to add scale inhibitor to control the calcium levels. This does nothing for the hardness. When the last heater died- the heat exchanger was caked with calcium (this was both of our heaters). No water could get through. This is why we are looking to move away from Sustain once we get the calcium under control. We believe all of our lines are probably coated with calcium.
We do not use a solar cover. We use the heater a fair amount, but have been reluctant to turn it on until the calcium is controlled. We probably use the heater on a more frequent basis than most, since we are in a cooler climate and don't use a cover because of pool shape, and difficulty putting it on easily.
What chemical should we use for chlorination, once we fix the current problem that will not produce calcium so that we do not destroy yet another heater?

Thanks for the feedback.
Will get back to you with numbers.

[aylad]

Most of us use plain, unscented, generic bleach for chlorination. It only adds chlorine and a little bit of salt water to the pool, as opposed to the other forms of chlorine that all add something different (dichlor and trichlor drive pH down, add C YA, cal-hypo adds calcium, etc). Some states sell carboys of liquid chlorine, which is the same thing as bleach, only in twice the strength but much cheaper.

Janet

[PoolDoc]

We will add the bleach now and get back to you after we recheck the numbers.
We have figured out how to vacuum to waste. Do you still need the pictures of the pump/filter/piping?

Don't need them; would be glad to have them for the photo library (something I'd like to have here, eventually)


the pool stores told us to add the baking soda and a second store told us to drain the water

Why am I not surprised?


We are currently using an Aquacheck meter in addition to strips to check the pool chemistries. Is this good enough or do we need to get the K2006 test kit (AquaChek® TruTest® Digital Test Strip Reader)- it gives actual numbers.

Yeah, it does. Unfortunately, they are partly RANDOM numbers! In most cases, if you collect ONE sample of water, and then test it 3 times, with 15 minutes or so in between, you'll get 3 different results! Actually, if you do this, I'd love to have the results! If you want to play completely fair, collect a sample in a water bottle or container you can close; refrigerate it, then test it every 2 hours.

But . . . yes, you need the K-2006.



We are currently using Sustain and know that it produces calcium as a byproduct. The pool stores are telling us to add scale inhibitor to control the calcium levels. This does nothing for the hardness. When the last heater died- the heat exchanger was caked with calcium (this was both of our heaters). No water could get through. This is why we are looking to move away from Sustain once we get the calcium under control. We believe all of our lines are probably coated with calcium.

How were you adding the Sustain? If you added it via the skimmer, AND had a sand filter, AND didn't lower you pH, your pH, TA and CH would have all reached a maximum level, and stayed there. I ran a commercial pool for 3 years with cal hypo . . . and had ZERO scale build up. I also used virtually NO other chemicals. I think I may have added a gallon of muriatic acid once, but that was the ONLY other chemical used for the entire period.


What chemical should we use for chlorination, once we fix the current problem that will not produce calcium so that we do not destroy yet another heater?

Bleach is easiest, at least conceptually. But the cal hypo is very easy, too . . . but you have to stay the heck away from the pool store, and you can't listen to their ideas about how it should be run (or the ideas on the Sustain label, for that matter.) That's hard for most people to do, so bleach is easier.

[Linda needs help]

Thanks so much for the help so far! The pool is finally clear- it has not been this clear in years! Couldn't believe how much precipitate came out of the water.
Just got the test kit in and tested the pool.
Did the test:

pH 8; Calcium 340ppm; alkalinity 130 ppm; Chlorine, free 1.0 Chlorine 2.0ppm; CYA 25 ppm?

Will stick with bleach for now.

Do we need to add a stabilizer for the chlorine? If so,what type?
1. How often, and how much bleach should be added?
2. How often should we test the water?
3. What do you recommend for raising/lowering pH and alkalinity?
4. How do i attach pictures for you- I have the pictures downloaded, but do not see how to attach.

Edited by Watermom to number your questions to make it easier to answer them.

[Watermom]

Answers to your questions.

1. I would raise the CYA up to 40-50. You may find it at Walmart or may have to get it from a pool store. It may be labeled as conditioner or stabilizer. Check the ingredients. You want to see cyanuric or isocyanuric acid and not a bunch of other ingredients. You'll want to add about 3.5 lbs. Put it in an old sock and hang it in front of a return jet. Give the sock a squeeze every now and then to help it dissolve faster. Don't retest the CYA for a week after you add it so you won't waste your reagents.

2. Test your water every evening --- chlorine and pH. (Other tests don't need to be done daily.) Each time you test, add enough bleach to take your chlorine level back up to about 6ppm. If you find that by the next evening when you test again, that you have dropped below 3ppm, take it up to 7 instead of 6. You don't want the chlorine level to ever go below 3ppm. In your pool, each 3 quart jug of bleach will add 2ppm of chlorine. use that as a reference to help you figure out doses of bleach to add each evening.

3. You don't need to raise your pH or alk. Your alk is ok where it is. Your pH is too high. You want pH to be 7.4-7.6 although anywhere 7.2-7.8 is ok. You use muriatic acid to lower it. Please read the link in Ben's signature above about how to use muriatic acid safely.

4. You can either use Picasa, Flicker, Photobucket or the like to add a picture or email them to poolforum@gmail.com and reference the URL of this thread.

Hope this helps. Glad your pool looks better!

[kmo98]

Hello;

I have actually just used CALTREAT.

My results were no change.
I have a plaster salt pool.
My data:
FC=3.5
CC=.5
TC=5
Ph=8.2
Alk=60
Cal=700
Cya=80

Initially my Cal was 980 but I did a 25% (approx) drain which dropped it to 700.

I was hoping the caltreat would further reduce it but no luck.
To supplement the generator I use ChlorBrite.

Other than draining some more is there anything else I can do?

Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Draining and refilling may -- or may not -- help. You need to test your FILL water, to find out. Some water systems supply water that is quite high in calcium.

I'm not sure what's in Caltreat and I've never trusted United Chemical's products enough to test them on my customer's pools. The reports I've seen on results have been very spotty, ranging from "made things worse" to "worked, but took much more product than the literature suggested".

Lime softening -- explained here [ http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16992 ] -- does work, but requires careful attention to detail. If you are willing to follow the process, it's fully explained in that thread. Just be aware it will take awhile to clean all the particles out of the pool and water.

If your filter is in poor condition, I would repairing it, first.