Question about orange/brown stain...

[PopcornGirl]

Ok, we're still trying to figure this one out...

I have an in-ground, gunite pool (almost 5 years old) & I live in Southeast Louisiana. For the first 3 years, we used an electric, copper ionization system. At the end of the 3rd season, we removed the copper bars and tested the water; it showed almost no copper in the pool. As it was nearing winter, we let the pool filter just run but did not add chlorine until the following spring.
All last summer, we used chlorine with great success! It was SO much easier than the copper ionization system!
This winter, we did not neglect our pool as we previously had, but we didn't keep it completely *up* either... When we opened it 3 weeks ago, there was some leaf debris and algae, but we could see the bottom of the pool and the chemistry was not WAY off...
We vacuumed the pool thoroughly, soaked and rinsed the cartridge filters, and then added acid & (after 3 hours) shocked the pool. Two days later, I added black algetrine because I noticed the black algae trying to come back (a problem that was introduced during our copper ionization days). Our calcium hardness was a bit low, so we added that a couple of days later. All of our levels are now *perfect*, and the black algae is all but gone, but there is this stubborn, orangish-brown stain on the bottom of my pool and at the base of the walls (where the floor curves up into the wall). The walls are pristine; no algae or stains at all.
I have scrubbed and scrubbed. The local pool store is baffled. Then I reminded them that we used to use copper so they tested for that and it came back positive! HOW is that possible??? It's been almost 2 years since we have actively added copper to the pool. I know some algaecides use copper; did the black algaetrine do this? Is this stain even related to the copper level in my pool or is it something else entirely?
I could really use some input here; I'm still a bit of a novice at all this and I don't want to do anything wrong & really screw up my pool.
One final note (sorry to be so long-winded): Yesterday (per my pool store's instruction), I added 1 quart of Metal-Out to my pool with the instruction to wait 2 days, rinse my cartridge filters, and then repeat the process. It has been nearly 24 hours since I added the Metal-Out and there has been no noticeable change in the stain so I'm wondering if this is even the right course...
I truly appreciate any help or direction you can give me!
Thanks in advance,

[PopcornGirl]

Here are some pics I took the other day of the stained areas...
Any thoughts???

MyPool (http://www.herstorygirl.com/myPool.html)

:confused:

[waterbear]

I am not an expert on metals in pools but I do have bit of a chemistry background. Your stains look more like iron than copper based on the color. Copper strains are usually blue to black. I am sure your water tests positive for copper unless you have drained and acid washed your pool you probably have a coating of copper deposited in your pool from your ionizer. Could your fill water have a high iron content? I have read posts on here on using ascorbic acid (vitamin c) to remove the stains and I know that many of the commercial stain removing products the pool stores sell are just ascorbic acid. Try taking a vitamin C tablet and holding it on the stain and see if the stain goes away. If it does then you know what you need to treat the stain. A sequestering/chelating agent usually will not remove a metal deposit. It only ties up metal ions in the water so they do not percipitate out as a stain.
Hope I've been of some help.

[duraleigh]

Hi, Summer,

I have never had a metal issue but I think "Waterbear"'s post has it just right. It certainly looks like iron to me and the cure I see on this forum time and time again is vitamin C. It's available in bulk and I've seen folks here post where to get it but I can't remember. Someone will post soon, I'm sure.

Dave S.

P.S. be cautious about shocking 'til you get the iron (if it's iron) out of the pool.

[PopcornGirl]

Thanks so much for your replies, Waterbear & Dave! I really appreciate your help.
I had not considered iron...
But where is it coming from??? We are on municipal water and Baton Rouge's water is notoriously SOFT (aggravatingly so!).
Also, I am not a scientist (my degree is in history :) ) but why wouldn't Metal Out remove iron from the water?
Finally, I know NOTHING about using ascorbic acid... do I need to stop the chlorine (I use a feeder with the discs) and do I need to let the chlorine level drop before adding the asc. acid?
I'm sorry to be such a novice; this is all still very new to me!
Thanks again,

[waterbear]

Soft water just removes calcium hardness. It has nothing to do with any possible dissoved metals which can come from numerous sources such as pipes, the ground your water source comes from, pollution, etc. It is possible to have soft water with a high iron content. First step would be to check your water for all metals. I have a big distrust of pool store testing from my own experiences. One time I brought in two different samples, one from my spa and one from my pool, and did not tell them that they were a connected system and that I had my spillover running for 4 hours right before I took the samples. One sample tested as having very low CYA and the other sample was low on CH and had very high TDS. I suspect it was error on the part of the (what looked like) high school girl who was doing the testing. There is a compnay that is supposed to make a metal stain identifying kit (I think it's Jack's Magic but I don't know anything about it) and Taylor sells kits for testing for varous metals as do other testkit companies (LaMotte). There might even be test strips that will at least tell you if metals are present but I would not trust them to tell you at what concentration. Iron is your most likely culprit and you probably still have a lot of copper in your pool. It might not be in the water but it is deposited on the surface and can leach back into the water if your pH drops.
Good luck on fighting the stains!

[PopcornGirl]

Oh, wow. Ok, that makes sense. Guess I'll be going to buy a metal test kit.

I don't really trust my pool store completely, either. Although, I do not go to a national chain store (whose name I won't mention) that seems to be run by uneducated teenagers -- we do have one nearby, but I won't go there!
My store is a family-owned business that has been around for about 20 years and the owners (mid-50's couple) do all the testing themselves. But I still don't trust them implicitly because they are running a business and they profit from my *needing* more chemicals. That's why I joined this forum. ;)

I think you have a excellent point & I will get that water tested right away!
BTW, it's now been nearly 36 hours with the Metal Out and there is NO change in the stain. DEFINITELY the wrong course of action...
Thanks!

[PopcornGirl]

Alright, I did a little *research* and read about a "vitamin C test" to see if ascorbic acid is what I need...
I took a handful of Vitamin C (chewable orange juice tablets) and put them in a white sock and secured it with a rubber band. Then I used a hammer to break the tablets down to a large gravel (not powder). I then tied this sock on to my pool brush and used the brush to hold the sock against the stain for 30 minutes.
There doesn't appear to be any difference in the stain! :confused:

Now, does that mean I do NOT need to use ascorbic acid or was that a total waste of my time (and my expensive Vit. C tablets)???
HELP! I don't want to spend any more money on this than I have to...

[waterbear]

I think the first step you should take is test the water for everything including metals so you will know what is going on. Also my understanding is that ascorbic acid is very pH dependant for it's use as a stain remover. I am not that familiar with it's use. I know several companies market it as a stain remover (reading a MSDS will usually tell you what is in the product). Perhaps the second step is to do a bit of internet searching and looking at the various products and what is in them and how they are used. Above all, DON"T GIVE UP! ;) Like I said before I am not an expert on stains in pools but I know that there are several on this board!:) I'm just a guy with a little knowledge and a big mouth! :D

[vgg659]

I think we're neighbors.

I'm on Baton Rouge Water, use the same pool supply store, and we have the same problem. Sounds like water problems.

In the past, Parish Water (a.k.a. Baton Rouge Water) used local wells purchased from Capital Utilities to augment their water supply when necessary. These wells are notoriously high in iron; I know, because I used to be on one of them before becoming a Parish Water customer.

Anyway, back to your problem. I have the same stains, but I originally thought that it was tanic stains from live oak leaves and such. During Mardi Gras, we went to Colorado for a week. Upon returning, I had a large amount of live oak leaves in my pool. After cleaning it up, the stains appeared. So, I shocked at high levels, which is the prescribed method for getting rid of tanic stains. No luck.

So, I took a water sample to my friendly local pool supply store, but they were closed for the Easter holiday. I happen to have a quart of Metal Out, so I dumped it in. A day later, my stains have faded to the point of barely visable. I plan on another quart or two of Metal Out.

I have not had to top off my pool much, so I didn't think the iron came from the tap water. But, given your and my problem, and the common tap water source, I guess we have too much iron in our tap water and pool.

Good luck.

[PopcornGirl]

Whew! What a RELIEF!
I had NO idea about BR's water supply! That definitely explains a lot...
What a small world it is! :)

SO, I have another question for you... (did you read my post in the pool chemistry problems forum yet?) I have 2 bottles of METAL OUT and some OMNI Filter Aid. Can I go ahead and use those -- even with all the algae in my pool and my pH being so high??? What do you think?
I was thinking I might soak my filters overnight and spray them down really good tomorrow, then add the Metal Out & filter aid, then reclean the filters...
But there is SO much algae (live & die-off) in my pool right now, I'm kind of immobilized by fear of doing something out-of-step.
Thanks so much for your input! That helps clear up the metal mystery! :)

[duraleigh]

Summer,

Keep your info under one thread. Since you've started under the "pool water chemistry", I'd keep it there. It'll help everyone track your problem better.:)

Dave S.

[PopcornGirl]

Yes, I agree, Dave; Sorry about that!

I actually started THIS thread a couple of weeks ago... I just wanted to respond to my *neighbor*. ;)

[vgg659]

Puzzling. My water test doesn't show any metals, including iron.

I'm now second guessing my iron deposits diagnosis, but my stains didn't seem to respond to high chlorine levels, and did seem to respond to 1 Qt Metal Out.

I decided to continue treating these stains as though they were iron deposits.

Yesterday's water test results are as follows:
FC 4.9 ppm
TC 4.9 ppm
CC 0 ppm
pH 7.8
Hardness 170 ppm
Alkalinity 140 ppm
Cyanuric Acid 30 ppm
Copper 0.0 ppm
Iron 0.0 ppm

My FC this AM was 2.0. This afternoon, it will be approaching zero, and I'll add the Stain Out, per the label directions. I'll repost.

Given the water test indicated no iron, the lingering question in my mind is that these stains could be tannins from the oak tree leaves, but I can't explain the lack of response from my high chlorine treatments.

[vgg659]

This AM, after allowing my TC to fall to .5 ppm, I added 4 lbs of Stain Out to my pool. Per the label directions, an hour later, I added two quarts of Metal Out. This afternoon, my pool is stain free.

Even thought the water test indicated no iron, my treatment for metal stains worked.

I do not know how I got the iron got in my pool, but I can only imagine I got it through the tap water, even though I haven't added that much water lately.

[PopcornGirl]

YAY!
That's great to hear. :)
My stains are gone now, too, and I'm praying that they don't come back because I have to add water frequently in the summer.
Good luck with yours; hope they are gone for good!

[Lenny]

I also used tap water to fill and I've had a few streaks, which look like iron, and a patch in the middle of the shallow end that looks like dirt but I can't brush it out. Also, the plaster doesn't look as clean overall as I think it should. It's less than 6 months old.

My levels are all good and the water is sparkling. I did use a bottle of "d-iron" which was left over from my friends at the pool store last year. It didn't help much. But I didn't intentially let me chlorine drop first.

I'm wondering whether I should do the same thing vgg659 did?

[vgg659]

>> I'm wondering whether I should do the same thing vgg659 did?

Absolutely. But, don't forget what I did.

1. First, I brushed and brushed.

2. Then I treated with elevated chlorine levels. Pretty standard advice on this forum.

3. Then, I got my water tested for metals (well, I tried, but the pool store was closed).

Since I had to wait the holiday weekend for the store to open, and I already had a quart of Metal Out, I dumped it in. I haven't done any maintenance treatments lately of Metal Out, so I figured it couldn't hurt.

4. Since I had already treated for biological stains (elevated CL), and nothing happened, and my stains responded to the Metal Out treatment above, I treated for a metal stain even though my water test (sample taken prior to Metal Out treatment) ultimately showed no metals. I used 4 lbs of Stain Out and 2 qts of Metal Out to treat my 25,000 gal pool, following label directions. By the way, following label directions is important when dealing with metals and chlorine.

So, begin at step 1, and I'm sure that you'll do fine. I'd be particularly interested in the results of your water test.

[Lenny]

Will do, vgg659. Thanks. I'll give it a shot and report back.

Lenny

[gwrace1]

I can tell you what I did to prevent the Iron staining. We are on a very hard water iron/magnesium rich south Texas well.

I initially filled our pool from the water softener where I had installed a 2 micron whole house filter. While the pool was filling I added the prescibed amount of metal out and polyquat. These two products seem to work great together to allow your filter system to remove metals. Since I was going to be using an SWG I didn't mind the added sodium in the water. It took a lot of regeneration cycles and several bags of salt to fill our 26K gallon pool.

I'm using a 26" sand filter with Zeolite as the filter medium. I allowed the filter system 2-3 days to filter the water before turning on the SWG.

By day 4 the SWG was switched on and has been maintaining 3PPM FC ever since. Water is crystal clear with no staining.

Since I now have my salt levels where I want them I fill directly from the well with the same 2 micron whole house filter attached to the end of the hose. It seems to be working as I have not seen any signs of staining. I do watch the PH and TA levels and keep them in check with Muriatic Acid.