New to pool forum - TA problem

[Gregg]

Hello all, new pool owner here, but have owned a hot tub for awhile so know most of the simple chemistry issues with water balance.

New 33' round pool (28,000 gallons).

We are on pristine blue.

I took my water in for a sample today, my TA is still sky high, like 240. My pH is 7.2 and Calcium is good at 220.

I just added another gallon of muriatic acid, running my pump on high presently with my outlet aimed at the surface to aerate. I'm hoping to get my pH back up once it drops from the additional acid.

Two questions:

I was told not to add acid in quantities more than 3 cups at a time, 3 times a day. A chemist from prestine bluetold me nonsesne, just dump an entire gallon at once. This is my 3rd gallon in 3 weeks I've added and I don't see any issues doing this.

My second question is that I added my normal weekly chemicals to my pool this morning after vacuuming, and this afternoon my water is cloudy. Any ideas what would cause my water to become cloudy? What should I do to correct?

Weekly chemicals are: 3lbs of prestine power (potassium monosulphate) 8 oz of prestine clear and prestine clean. Weekly prestine blue additions are around 17-20 oz.

Thanks in advance!

[waterbear]

We are on pristine blue.
This is just copper sulfate and is NOT an EPA approved primary sanitizer!
I took my water in for a sample today, my TA is still sky high, like 240. My pH is 7.2 and Calcium is good at 220.

I just added another gallon of muriatic acid, running my pump on high presently with my outlet aimed at the surface to aerate. I'm hoping to get my pH back up once it drops from the additional acid.

Two questions:

I was told not to add acid in quantities more than 3 cups at a time, 3 times a day. A chemist from prestine bluetold me nonsesne, just dump an entire gallon at once. This is my 3rd gallon in 3 weeks I've added and I don't see any issues doing this.

My second question is that I added my normal weekly chemicals to my pool this morning after vacuuming, and this afternoon my water is cloudy. Any ideas what would cause my water to become cloudy? What should I do to correct?
You have a vinyl liner pool. Low pH can and will damage the liner. Period! You do NOT want to drop the pH below 7.0 at any time so lowering TA becomes a process of:
1. drop pH to 7.0
2. aerate the water to ougas CO2 which causes pH to rise
3. When pH is above 7.4 test TA If still to high repeat from 1.

I would not really trust a 'chemist' from a company that sells copper sulfate as a pool sanitation system and it is obvious that he does not understand the effects of low pH on a vinyl liner!. Pristine Blue is EPA registered as an algaecide (because copper sulfate is registered as an algaecide). It is NOT a sanitizer.

My second question is that I added my normal weekly chemicals to my pool this morning after vacuuming, and this afternoon my water is cloudy. Any ideas what would cause my water to become cloudy? What should I do to correct?
Yeah, your water is most likely cloudy because you don't have any sanitizer in there and something is growing. Copper is not a santizer, MPS is not a sanitizer at pool temperatures (but is one at hot tub temperatures in the presence of silver ions)
Weekly chemicals are: 3lbs of prestine power (potassium monosulphate) 8 oz of prestine clear and prestine clean. Weekly prestine blue additions are around 17-20 oz. You have been putting in copper sulfate--pristine blue (an algaecide) MPS--prisitne power (an oxidizer), Pristine clear-- a clarifier, and pristine clean--a scale treatment to help stop copper stains BUT you have nothing in your water to stop the growth of microbes quickly. Copper has very slow kill times. THIS is why they also sell Pristine Extra, which is just dichlor (chlorine) and why they say that their system is 'compatible' with bromine and chlorine. It is because it MUST be used with a primary residual fast acting santizer if you want safe and clear water!



Thanks in advance!

Hope this helps!

[Gregg]

So, do i need to go and purchase some chlorine and how much should I be adding?? I'm sorry - new to pool chemicals, and didn't get ANY guidance other than the chemicals I mentioned on what to use :(

Do you even recommend using this pristine blue stuff??

Can I switch over to a product like Baquicil?

Thanks in advance!

[Watermom]

We do not recommend Pristine Blue and we also do not recommend Baquacil. I'm going to let Ben or Waterbear (who are more familiar with Pristine Blue than I am) talk to you about switching to just chlorine. I don't think there are any 'gotchas' about doing so, but not sure.

Welcome to the Pool Forum, by the way!

[Gregg]

Our pool was recently set-up. The water has only been in for about 3 weeks now. I know my metal (copper sepcifically) are high. I know one thing: draining the pool is NOT an option. 28,000 gallons by truck was $1000.00 - so i need to either make prestine blue work with adding this prestine extra stuff or hopefully straighten out the water with other chemicals. :(

[Watermom]

Did you know ........ contrary to popular belief, it is not chlorine that turns blonde hair green and stains pool surfaces green, it is copper that does it.

[waterbear]

Pristine blue does not work. Period. It is NOT an EPA approved santizer and they have been recently told by the EPA to change their weibsite but they are still trying to skirt around the law.
There are 3 EPA approved primary sanitizers for pools:
Chlorine
Bromine (not suitable for pools exposed to sunlight (i.e. outdoor pools) because it cannot be stabilized against loss from UV light
Biguanide/Peroxide (Baquacil, SoftSwim, Revacil, etc.) falling out of favor because of the very high cost and the major problems associated with its use such as pink slime, white water mold, cloudy water, lung irriatation, etc. It can for a a few years before it stops. At that point most people convert to chlorine.

Coppper sulfate is an algaecide. Period. It MUST be used with either chlorine or bromine for santized water. It stains pool surfaces and is what turns hair green.
Silver with MPS does not have sanitizing action at pool temperatures but it does at spa temperatures.

What we need right now is a full set of test results including your copper levels

[waterbear]

BTW, how are you sanitizing your hot tub. You said you did understand water balance because you have owned one for a while. Also, how are you testing your hot tub water? FWIW, I am a moderator of a forum that deals mostly with hot tubs and spas (and a bit with swimming pools) as you can read in my signature.

[Gregg]

I owned a hot tub quite awhile ago (had it for 5 years), in that system I was using bromine. I've not been doing any chemical water maintenance for at least 10 years!

My wife is concerned about her dyed hair turning green and insisted on pristine blue as it's "non-chlorine".

If I try to go full chlorine now, how much do I add and what do I do about my relatively high metals in my water now?

Thanks in advance!!

[PoolDoc]

My wife is concerned about her dyed hair turning green and insisted on pristine blue as it's "non-chlorine".

Unfortunately, you are now in a "darned if you do, and darned if you don't" situation. Copper can turn hair green by itself, but adding chlorine makes it MUCH more effective at staining. Essentially, your wife needs to keep her hair out of the pool till ALL the copper is gone. Here's what I'd recommend:

1. Buy some polyquat (info page (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat.html)) and use it to keep your pool algae free, till the copper is gone and you can use chlorine without causing copper stains.

2. Keep your pH below 7.2, till the copper is gone. By the way, high TA also makes the copper more likely to stain, and interferes with its ability to kill algae, which is probably why the Pristine people wanted to get it down quickly: they would get blamed for algae, but not for a damaged liner!

3. Run your pump & filter 24/7 -- the metal will tend to eventually come out on the filter.

4. Consider using CuLator packets to strip the copper from the water.

The CuLator product is a special patented plastic material, contained in a bag that goes into the skimmer, that can slowly take metals OUT of your pool water. We think it works, and have some evidence that it does, but not proof yet. (Not likely to be available locally.)
1 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003C5PNUW/poolbooks) @ Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004Y6RK3Q/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007AHDMTM/poolbooks) sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004XUIRQW/poolbooks) @ Amazon (to protect CuLator from being damaged by scum)

5. If you use the CuLator, then you can ALSO use HEDP to keep the copper in a soluble form, so you can chlorinate AND let your wife swim, without a high risk of staining:

HEDP is a liquid phosphonate that is pretty chlorine stable, and very good at keeping dissolved metals IN the water, instead of ON your pool surfaces. It can lift recent stains, OR it can be used along side of ascorbic acid, to keep the metals in the water, after the ascorbic acid is consumed by chlorine.
Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003MYEU3E/poolbooks) @ Amazon
20% KemTek HEDP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI22/poolbooks) @ Amazon


6. Maintain low levels of chlorine, 0.5 - 2 ppm, while using polyquat.

7. After a month, the copper should be gone. (The CuLator units work slowly, and only as the water passes over them.)

By the way, if your wife is skeptical about the copper being the source of stains, have her cut off a bit of hair where it won't show. Separate it into two parts. Mix 1 cup of water with 1/4 teaspoon of Pristine Blue. Put 1/2 of the hair in that cup, and then add 1 teaspoon of baking soda (alkalinity increaser) & mix. Mix another cup with 1 teaspoon of bleach, and add hair. Add 1 teaspoon of baking soda to that cup, and let stand. After 24 hours, remove the hair from both cups, and dry on a paper towel. Compare the colors.