Spring Pool Opening Problems

[JRDLEE]

I'm still trying to get my in-ground pool open for the summer: 21K gal plaster, Polaris 380 pool cleaner with PB-4 booster pump, Sta-Rite P4-R6 pump, Triton II TR60 sand filter. The pH level hovers around 7.6-7.8, alkalinity at 80 ppm, and Cl shock level of 10 ppm. The pool filter runs 12+ hours each day, and the water is still a milky white with suspended solids. Use of a clarifier flocculant doesn't seem to do anything. I test twice a day, morning and evening with new OTO reagents so I don't think the test kit is faulty.

Last year, this milky white state only lasted for 1-2 days before the water turned clear and blue. This year, it's been almost a week and no clear blue water in sight as of yet.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Watermom]

Actually, the kit we recommend is a FAS-DPD kit which is better than a DPD kit. The Taylor K-2006 or 2006C is the one we suggest and you can get it through the test kit page in my signature below.

You should only backwash the filter when the pressure rises 8-10psi over clean filter pressure.

What kind of shock did you use -- meaning ingredients. What is your CYA level and your calcium hardness level? Your OTO kit won't be able to test for those two.

If available at YOUR Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)
Also, please fill in your pool's info in our pool chart to make it easier for us to help you.


Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

[JRDLEE]

Today's OTO test results:

Poolwater: pH 7.8; Cl ~8 ppm; alkalinity ~80 ppm; CYA estimated at 40 ppm after adding 4 lbs. of stabilizer for 21K gals. (assuming zero CYA level to begin with as only regular liquid chlorine was used for the past 2+ years)
Tapwater: pH 8.2; Cl < 0.5 ppm; alkalinity ~30 ppm
Water appearance: white with suspended solids, somewhat better than yesterday

I'm definitely getting a FAS-DPD test kit as recommended. Has anyone used any of the Lamotte Color Q test kits? These use a digital colorimeter tester than seems to be easier (and perhaps more accurate) than using color charts.

[Watermom]

Something Ben wrote recently in regards to the LaMotte kit vs. Taylor K-2006: There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16551) )

Do you know what hp your pump is and how much sand your filter holds?

[aylad]

One thing that has been covered in this forum in the past is the fact that the ColorQ doesn't do very well with hardness levels--and it sounds like that may be part of your problem. Have you by chance been chlorinating with cal-hypo, and what is your calcium hardness level in the pool?

Janet

[JRDLEE]

From the Triton II Owners Manual: TR60 uses 325 lbs. of sand or sand/pea gravel for 3.14 sq. ft. of filtering area, 63 gpm flow rate @ 20 gpm/sq. ft. The Sta-Rite P4-R6 pump is 3/4-hp rated. If there's an upload area, I can upload the PDF docs for future reference as I've gathered all of the relevant guides, manuals, etc. for my particular pool configuration.

No idea what the Ca hardness level is by testing, but the annual water report from the SF Public Utilities Commission states the Ca level ranging from 2-26 ppm, with an average of 12 ppm. I've only been chlorinating with Sodium Hypochlorite (Clorox regular bleach in the bulk 1.42 gal. containers from Costco). Never used Ca Hypochlorite in this pool to best of my knowledge.

Today's OTO test results: pH 7.8; alkalinity ~80 ppm; Cl ~6 ppm. Water is still cloudy white but less so than yesterday. Progress seems to be made, albeit quite slowly. Filtration is still being run 12+ hrs. each day for about 1.5 total filtration cycles of the 21K gallon pool.

The links in the replies above don't seem to work for me being a new forum user. If possible, could alternative links be posted that newbies (i.e. me) can access? Many thanks.

[Watermom]

Which link isn't working for you?

Your pump and filter seem to be a pretty good size match.

Good decision to order the good kit. Two things I want you to try. Shock your pool up a little higher. With a CYA of 40, shock level would be 15ppm. Go ahead and take the chlorine up to that level and let's see if that makes any difference for you.

Also, can you let a reputable pool store test your CC and calcium hardness for you and post the results. You're probably right that the calcium isn't high by looking at the info you posted above, but let's just double check it to be sure. Plus, since it is a plaster pool, you really need to know the reading.

Actually, one last thing to do. This evening, test the chlorine after the sun is off the pool. Add enough bleach to get back to chlorine level of 15ppm. An hour or two later, test the chlorine again. Then, in the morning within two hours of sunrise, test the chlorine again. I'm trying to determine if you are losing chlorine overnight. When you lose more than 1ppm of chlorine overnight, that tells us you are fighting something in the water.

Your OTO kit isn't going to test cl levels higher than 5ppm. Until you get your good kit, you can force your kt to read higher with a dilution method described below. Each dilution does lose some accuracy, but it is better than nothing for now.

Testing Without a Good Kit (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html )

(A gallon should add about 3ppm of chlorine to a 21K pool.)

Run your pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear a pool.

[PoolDoc]

membership upgraded. -ben

(you can follow links, now.)

[JRDLEE]

Thank you for the membership upgrade! Much appreciated!

Tonight's update (Wed, Jun. 27 late evening):

pH: 8.0
Cl: 15+ ppm (with addition of 4.25 gals. of Clorox bleach at 9 PM, tested at 12 midnight)
alkalinity: ~80 ppm
water appearance: still cloudy white with "foamy" bubbles on the surface

What's with the foamy bubbles? First time I've ever seen this happen in this pool. The filtration pump is running 24 hours now, new test kits ordered, more bulk Cl on the way. The higher pH seems to be fine (as per the Pool Solutions guides) and the alkalinity is staying around 80 ppm with no effort. I'll test the Cl levels tomorrow early morning. Since I don't have the FAS-DPD test kit yet, the Cl test will be estimated by the 2:1 dilution method.

If the pool doesn't start clearing up soon, I may rethink trying to "open" it. Lily pads and salmon farming may be the way to go . . .

[aylad]

How's the pool looking now?

Janet

[JRDLEE]

Boy oh boy, does the Taylor K-2006 test kit ever make a difference! After several weeks of fighting cloudy water with mega-gallons of chlorine, the pool is finally looking pristine! Some of the lessons I've learned throughout this summer:

1. A really, really good FAS-DPD test kit is absolutely required. Don't even begin to think about clear blue water if you can't test it to see what's happening. The OTO kits are basically useless.

2. At times, chlorine is cheaper as "pool chlorine" rather than regular Clorox. Price comparisons in my area: 3x - 182 oz. jugs of 6% Clorox for $8.99 from Costco, versus 2x 128 oz. jugs of 10% Kem-Tek for $6.86 from Home Depot.

3. Not using stablized tri-chlor tablets means getting the CYA levels high enough to support effective chlorine sanitization. I try to maintain an CYA level of 40-50. Now the chlorine really works well!

4. pH levels are much easier to maintain if the alkalinity level is correct. My pool seems to stay in the 7.6-7.8 range with an alkalinity of about 80.

5. So far, I haven't had to use any borax for raising the pH at all. Have had to use about 1-gallon of muratic acid to adjust the alkalinity first, then the pH. And only about 2 lbs. of baking soda to raise the alkalinity.

6. The pool sand filter needs to be backwashed about once a week, even though the pressure gauge doesn't really indicate a higher pressure. Looking at what gets backwashed out via the sight glass and seeing algae build-up starting is enough for me. I am thinking about replacing the sand in the Triton II filter with zeolite for better performance without having to install a cartridge or DE filter. Any suggestions?

Thanks for all for helping out with your advice!

[PoolDoc]

A really, really good FAS-DPD test kit is absolutely required. Don't even begin to think about clear blue water if you can't test it to see what's happening. The OTO kits are basically useless.

It's a little more accurate to say that the OTO kits are not very helpful for troubleshooting. Once you've got a routine down, you can do a quick-n-dirty test with an OTO kit, so make sure you're still 'in-range'.

But, collecting the Pool Chart data has made is VERY clear that people who don't get the K2006 end up having a much harder time solving their problems.




2. At times, chlorine is cheaper as "pool chlorine" rather than regular Clorox. Price comparisons in my area: 3x - 182 oz. jugs of 6% Clorox for $8.99 from Costco, versus 2x 128 oz. jugs of 10% Kem-Tek for $6.86 from Home Depot.

This can definitely be true. The problem is that in many parts of the country, pool chlorine is stored all summer in hot warehouses. The higher the temp, and the higher the %, the faster bleach breaks down. 15% bleach can lose 1/2 it's strength in less than 2 weeks, if stored at summer time temps!


3. Not using stablized tri-chlor tablets means getting the CYA levels high enough to support effective chlorine sanitization. I try to maintain an CYA level of 40-50. Now the chlorine really works well!

Trichor is one way of adding stabilizer, and can be a good one. Stabilizer is definitely necessary on outdoor pools.



4. pH levels are much easier to maintain if the alkalinity level is correct. My pool seems to stay in the 7.6-7.8 range with an alkalinity of about 80.

I'm glad you've found your pool's 'balance point', but it tends to vary from pool to pool.



6. The pool sand filter needs to be backwashed about once a week, even though the pressure gauge doesn't really indicate a higher pressure. Looking at what gets backwashed out via the sight glass and seeing algae build-up starting is enough for me. I am thinking about replacing the sand in the Triton II filter with zeolite for better performance without having to install a cartridge or DE filter. Any suggestions?

We've not seen ANY evidence that zeolite media does anything better than sand.

However, you do not want to backwash your sand filter without seeing a pressure increase. Check your gauge to make sure it works, and then backwash after you've seen at least a 3# increase. If you have seen green in the backwash, put a tab in the skimmer OR add bleach to the pool via the skimmer. (Do NOT add bleach on top of a tap or anything else in the skimmer.