Advice Needed - High CYA, High Nitrates, and Lots of Algae

[capshockeyfan]

Hi Folks,

We live in Southern Maryland and have the following:

20' x 48' gunite pool
36,000 gallons
Jacuzzi tri-clops filter
Jacuzzi pump (3/4 hp I believe, I can confirm this if important)

We had a local pool company open the pool June 15; the water was clear, but there was a heavy algae growth on all sides and bottom. They added 5 lbs of dichlor at opening; we have used dichlor as our pool shock for several years with no problems. I put two 3-inch chlorine tablets in each skimmer and brushed the pool. The walls came clean but the water turned into a green mess.

I have been running the filter 24/7 and have had to clean the filter cartridges after 12 hours of filtration due to pressure going up 10psi (filter cartridges are covered in algae each time I changed them). I have 2 sets of cartridges, but it is a pain to change them out and clean the cartridges 2x a day.

The water stayed green through the weekend and we had the water tested June 18. The CYA was over 160 and I was told to drain 60% of the pool and refill with fresh water. We are on a well, so there is no way I could drain that much water at once, so I have drained about 2 inches of water the past two evenings and and added water via the hose to replace.

We had the water retested today; the pool company did some additional tests and here are our results:

free chlorine - 0.37
total chlorine - 0.88
combined chlorine - 0.51
ph - 7.47
hardness - 161
akalinity - 115.03
CYA - 163.62
copper - 0
nitrates - 80
phosphates - 50

The test printout today recommended a 90% drain of existing water and replacement with fresh water.

Is there anything besides a full drain and refill that will fix our pool water? If not, do you recommend that we gradually drain and replace the existing water with fresh? Should I bite the bullet and drain the whole thing and start from scratch?

I am concerned about potential "pool popping" as there is a lot of clay in our soil; we have a 6' fence around the pool and one of the fence posts "popped" last year and I don't want to risk having the same happen to an empty pool. Pool trucks in our area can deliver a max of 6,000 gallons at one time; would a drain and refill of 1 truckload every couple of days be a good way to gradually add the water if we don't go for a complete drain and refill?

Also, should I try adding lots of liquid chlorine (generic store bleach) to the pool at this point to try and get the CYA and the chlorine lined up to hopefully kill off some of the algae?

Please let me know if any additional info is needed and thanks in advance for your advice!

[waterbear]

Nitrates are algae food and the only way to get rid of them is by replacing water. Your test readings are suspect, btw. There is NO pool water testing that has a precision of 2 decimal places and I suspect that yours was done with test strips in a reader, correct?
Assuming that your CYA IS above 100 ppm (which is probably is if you have been using dichlor and trichlor exclusively) yo need to use bleach or liquid chlorine to get your FC above 25 ppm (and it probably needs to be closer to 100 ppm). In a 36000 gallon pool this would be about 15 gallons (or 19 96 oz jugs) of 6% laundry bleach so if 12.5% pool chlorine in refillable carboys is sold in your area it will probably be a more economical solution. The carboys are normally either 2.5 or 5 gallons and I would suggest 3 of the 2.5 gal size ( or 1 and a half of the fivers).

It's much easier to answer your questions, when we know something about your pool. We often 'waste' the first few posts back and forth collecting information. So, please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds, but will save much more than that.

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

A few more things:

+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)


+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.


+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16551) )

Welcome to the forum! We are glad to have you here!

[aylad]

I typed a very long response to this thread about 1/2 hour ago, but when I tried to post, I got a message saying that the forum wasn't accepting new posts. So...I emailed it to Ben, but it's not here yet. Later this evening, when I can get back to the computer I was on at the time, I'll try again.

_________________________________________
OK, here it is...

What testing method did you use to come up with your test results? We very highly recommend drop-based testing here, because it is much more accurate than strips or computers are. Do yourself a favor and take a look at the K-2006 test kit in the link in my sig--it's going to be required if you're going to manage this pool with your CYA level that high.

You can fix the pool water in two ways...first, you can drain/refill part of your water to lower that CYA, or you can simply run a high CYA/high chlorine pool (which would be my pick of the two). Take a look at the "best guess chlorine chart" in my sig for a better explanation, but basically because your CYA is so high (due to the dichlor/trichlor use), you have to maintain higher chlorine levels to compensate. In your case, with a CYA of 160-ish (are you sure that's right?) you need to shock the pool up to a chlorine level of 25 ppm and hold it there, brushing daily and cleaning the cartridge as your pressure indicates, until the pool clears. It will become blue/cloudy at first, and then you can finish filtering out the dead algae After all the algae is gone, then you just have to maintain your chlorine levels between 8-15 ppm and you shouldn't have any further problems. (At this point, I'd switch to bleach, liquid chlorine, or a SWCG, though--if you keep using the dichlor or trichlor, that CYA is just going to skyrocket to the point where draining/refilling isn't an option).

I run a higher CYA pool than most folks around here--80-90 ppm, sometimes higher--and I like it that way. I don't have to dose everyday, and there are zero complaints from the swimmers I have about the water quality,.

[capshockeyfan]

Thanks much to the folks who have responded to this thread!

A local pool store is where I have obtained the results I posted in my initial message; I believe they use a computerized tester. My wife stopped by the store today to get the water tested and gave me the results over the phone; I'm home now and everything I posted above matches the printout.

On my way home from work, I picked up six 96oz jugs of 6% bleach. I brushed the pool when I got home, changed out the cartridges, lowered the water level a couple of inches and refilled with tap water from our well. I then poured all of the bleach into the pool; I will get more bleach in the pool starting tomorrow. (Hopefully it is okay to not add all of the bleach at once.)

I will get the pool water re-tested tomorrow morning on my way to work and will post a follow-up message here ASAP. I will also get a sample of the well-water tested. My wife will stop by our local Walmart and get the recommended testing kit... I'm not chemically savvy, so hopefully it's simple to use!

I have added my pool info into the pool chart as per Waterbear's request. (I was way off on the HP of our pump in my initial post! )

Thanks again for the quick replies; you have given me some hope that my "swamp" might actually become useable again! :)

[aylad]

If my math is correct, 6 96 oz containers of bleach = 4.5 gallons, which will raise the FC in a 36K gallon pool by 7.5 ppm, which is not nearly enough to clear up an algae bloom. Each gallon of 6% bleach in a pool that size will raise your FC by 1.7 ppm, and with your high CYA you need to get it up to (and keep it at) 25 ppm.However, you need to take a look at your well water analysis before you do this, because if you have metals in the water, then raise the chlorine that high, you may end up with a tea colored pool. So post your metals analysis here before you shock the pool!

The hth kit is not hard to use, but you'll have to force the chlorine test to read higher than it's supposed to by diluting your sample and multiplying (see this thread http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html). That's why you need the K-2006--it will accurately test chlorine levels to at least 50 ppm without guessing.

[waterbear]

As I said in my post you will need 19 96 oz jugs of 6% bleach!

[waterbear]

(Hopefully it is okay to not add all of the bleach at once.)



Nope, Won't do the job. It ALL has to be added at once, the water retested, and more added as it is consumed to maintain the chlorine level at 25 ppm or greater.
A Taylor K-2006 will make things much easier for your. The kits from Walmart are just an inexpensive stopgap measure unti you get a good kit which will have to be ordered on the internet most likely.

[capshockeyfan]

I stopped by our local pool shop this morning on my way to work and they tested samples of our pool water and well water for nitrates. They are using a computerized system and it only gives out readings on nitrates up to 80, which is where our pool water is at... so at this time, I do not know how high our nitrates actually are, just that they are at least 80.

The good news is that our well water was clear of nitrates, so the new water I can add is not making the problem worse.

Aylad - Unfortunately, I did not see your post until I got to work, so I did not have the well water tested for metals yet; I will do so tomorrow. Just to confirm, the metals you are referring to are the iron and copper that the pool shop included in the test yesterday? (Are there any other metals I need to have tested for?)

The pool shop folks said it was useless to add chemicals to the pool until the nitrates were lower and the only thing I can do is replace the water. They were really busy and did not have time to run a full water test; their thought was that if the nitrates are through the roof, it does not really matter what the other results were.

My wife is picking up one of the Walmart pool water testing kits today and I will post those results here tomorrow; I will also order one of the Taylor K-2006 kits you are recommending. Given that it will take a few days for that kit to arrive; I'm hoping I can make some progress on the pool situation while waiting for the better kit.

I have thought about possibly running a high CYA/chlorine pool; before I make that call, can you tell me if people with sensitive skin might have a reaction to this type of water?

Waterbear - Sorry I screwed up with only adding a partial amount of the bleach; my plan was to add the full amount over the weekend when I have more time to devote to the pool. I thought it would be okay to pick up a portion of the bleach on my way home from work last night to get things started and then add the rest over the weekend. Lesson learned!

Given that my pool has very high CYA and nitrates, it is looking like at least a partial drain and replace will have to be done. If so, do you folks feel it is best to just drain the whole pool and start over with trucked in water; or would a gradual drain and replacement (6,000 gallons at a time) be a better way to go?

If we go with a gradual refill, my thought was to try and kill two birds with one stone if possible... get the chlorine levels up high right now to kill the algae bloom; I can then vacuum out the dead algae when I lower the pool water in preparation for the arrival of the trucked-in water. If I go this route, at least my pool will be free of algae once we have the nitrates and CYA in check.

[aylad]

I would stop worrying about the nitrates. If you kill the algae in the pool, then the nitrates don't matter. If you want to drain/refill part of the water, then I would drain/refill before killing the algae so that you're not wasting all the chlorine to kill the algae, then draining that nice, clean water out of the pool. However, I still think you could just stop using stabilized chlorine and run a higher Cl pool,, especially if you want to get swimming during this season. Folks with sensitive skin shouldn't have any problem with this type of water--a pool with a CYA of 160 and Cl of 10 is no more irritating to the skin than a CYa of 30 and Cl of 5. The chloramines are normally what will irritate the skin, but if you keep your chlorine at the appropriate level, you shouldn't have those anyway.

It's your pool and you are the one to ultimately make the decision. However, I want to caution you that completely draining the pool, if you have a high water table, can cause the pool to literally float out of the ground. If you decide to go that route, I'd make sure you have some professionals to help do the job.

[AGPoolNewbie]

I was reading your thread and although I am not knowledgeable enough to offer any insight directly to help with your problem, it did raise a question in my mind, and I hope I am not wrong in asking it here. Capshockeyfan has a problem with CYA levels being very high. I understand that you can maintain high levels of CYA as long as the chlorine levels are in somewhat of a proportionally high level. My question is this; Does CYA ever break down or go away through its normal chemical process or reaction with chlorine? Is it ever consumed? If so, how long does it take for CYA to break down and what chemicals does it break down into?

[aylad]

It takes a long, long time for CYA to break down under normal chlorination levels--I believe it's something like 2-3 ppm per month. CYA can and does break down under algae/swampy conditions--it breaks down into 2 or 3 different things, but one of the most prominent here is ammonia--which creates a HUGE chlorine demand to overcome.

If this OP will stop using stabilized chlorine products, the CYA will eventually come down on its own through splashout and filter backwashes--but it will take awhile.

Janet

[capshockeyfan]

Aylad - thank you for your advice! FYI; the folks at my local pool store are the ones concerned about the nitrate level... they just tested the water for nitrates and told me nothing else matters until that problem is solved.

My wife is picking up one of the Walmart kits today, so I'll have those results tomorrow. I've checked on Amazon and eBay for the K-2006 kit; just to confirm, this is the one: Taylor Complete FAS-DPD Pool Water Test Kit K-2006 I found a new one on eBay for $63 postage paid, but it will take a week before I receive it.

I am aware of the potential "pool popping" if I fully drain my pool (please see the bottom of my initial message); being as I have had a pool fence post pop already, I am hesitant to fully drain the pool. If I do wind up draining the pool at some point, I will hire a professional.

Regarding the killing algae before/after draining some water; at this point, I have been staring at a green swamp for a week and would love to see some improvement (actually, I would really love to see the bottom of my pool)! :)

A new question: Can one gradually switch to the bleach, borax, baking soda method of pool maintenance or do you have to start this method with totally fresh pool water?

[waterbear]

A new question: Can one gradually switch to the bleach, borax, baking soda method of pool maintenance or do you have to start this method with totally fresh pool water?

Nothing to switch. BBB is just good pool maintenance. In your case it means stopping all forms of stabilized chlorine (trichlor and dichlor) because your CYA is high and only using an unstabilized chlorine source. Sodium hypochlorite (liquid pool chlorine/laundry bleach) happens to have the fewest side effect at a decent price. Your other options are cal hypo which can cloud a pool and will raise calcium hardness or lithium hypochlorite, which is just ridiculously expensive.
AS far as baking soda goes, if you have ever bought total alkalinity increaser from the pool store you bought very expensive baking soda! I don't care if the label says sodium hydrogen carbonate or any of the other chemical synomyms for sodium bicarbonate, it is still just baking soda and not as pure as the stuff from the grocery store!
As far as borax, well you can buy that in the pool store also under such sames as Bioguard Optimizer and Proteam Supreme but 20 Mule Team works exactly the same. We recommend using borax for raising pH instead of soda ash (pH increaser, which is also available at the grocery as Arm and Hammer Super Washing Sods...once again exactly the same chemical) because soda ash raises both pH AND TA and often (usually) causes the TA to go too high so it needs to be lowered after the pH is in line.
So, the only change you really have to make is to change your chlorine source because you do not want any more stabilizer in your water, start testing your water, and balance as heeded. We are here to help you learn how. It really isn't very hard at all and you will save a lot of money in the process and have a really easy pool to care for.

[capshockeyfan]

A quick update on my pool water situation; Friday evening, I added the balance of bleach to my swampy pool water and had a sample tested Saturday morning at a different pool company a few miles away; here are the results:

Free chlorine - 3.3 ppm
total chlorine - 3.7 ppm
combined chlorine - 0.3 ppm
ph - 7.8
hardness - 180 ppm
akalinity - 75 ppm
CYA - OVR 150 ppm
copper - 0.06ppm
nitrates - 80ppm
phosphates - 2500ppb

Their advice was the same as pool company # 1 (drain and refill the pool) due to the high CYA and nitrates. I was surprised to see the chlorine levels looked pretty good, but there was no noticeable improvement in the algae/green color of the water. I was also surprised to see the phosphate levels were so much higher with the new test (they went from 50ppb to 2500ppb); is this a side-effect of using liquid bleach?

I have decided to bite the bullet and have pool company # 1 drain and refill the pool; I just felt I was in over my head trying to fix things and if my family is to have any time in the pool this year, I had best start from scratch with fresh water. They are going to do a full drain of the pool and also clean the plaster (not using acid) for $650 + cost of water. I specifically requested the co-owner of the shop be the one to do the work and I have faith in him (although they did have me fill out a waiver of damages in case the pool "pops")!

I do have one of the recommended Walmart 6-way kits, but figured I'd hold off using it until the new water is in since there are only 2 test of CYA in this kit.

I've got a few questions for you folks now as I prepare for the new water:

1. Is BBB a good choice for the person with limited time to devote to the care of the pool water? My wife and kids can help out with the pool brushing, but taking care of the water itself is up to me. I am leaning towards liquid bleach as my sanitizer method; I have previously used Arm & Hammer baking soda as the alkalinity increaser and it worked like a charm. The liquid bleach certainly got my chlorine levels up quickly last week. If we go with BBB, is there a dosage chart on this site that will let me know how much of each ingredient to add to the new pool water?

2. Since I am starting from scratch now, can I update my pool chart info on your site with the new sanitation choice? I may also adjust the # of gallons as the 36,000 figure was what I was told by the pool builder; I will know the exact capacity once the pool is drained and new water is added.

3. My filter cartridges are a bit discolored after processing all of the algae over the past week; should I just continue to hose them off and use "as-is" with the new water or is there a recommended cleaner to prepare them for use in the new water? (Pool company # 2 recommended using diluted muratic acid to soak the cartridges, but I did not want to go this route without double checking with the folks here.)

[aylad]

BBB is a good choice for the person with limited time to take care of the water. It may take a day or two to get the whole pool balanced, but once that's done, you can test/add bleach in 5 minutes a day--you just need to make sure that's every cay. :) Here's a chart that may help you with your doseages...
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?11418-bleach-calc If you'll open it and save it to your desktop, it's an invaluable tool! It will calculate more than just bleach--look in the upper left corner for a drop-down box with more calcs in it.

As far as updating the pool chart info, Watermom has started a thread here http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16913-Corrections-Needed-on-Pool-Chart for corrections to be made. Unfortunately, we'll have to go edit them, and it probably won't happen til the end of the busy season (at least til after July 4) but we'll eventually get it done.

If your budget can handle it, if you're starting with new water, I would start with new cartridges. Thre is a way to clean them, but I'm not a cart person--one of the others will have to chime in here. You can also search the forum and find plenty of threads about cleaning them (and ordering new ones) with the google link in either my or Watermom's sigs above.

Janet

[Watermom]

The thread Jan linked above is the top thread in the "Notes and Announcements" section of the forum. (since you won't be able to follow that link)

[PoolDoc]

I was surprised to see the chlorine levels looked pretty good, but there was no noticeable improvement in the algae/green color of the water. I was also surprised to see the phosphate levels were so much higher with the new test (they went from 50ppb to 2500ppb); is this a side-effect of using liquid bleach?

No, it's a side effect of using bogus testing from 2 different companies! I have no idea what your actual PO4 levels are; either number might be right, but it's more likely that they are BOTH wrong!

You can test this for yourself, once you get your pool refilled, by taking a 1 gallon water jug (not milk jug -- it would contaminate the sample) filling it with pool water and then refrigerating it. After 24 hours, take a sample out of the jug "from your pool" to both dealers. Wait 48 hours, and then do it again. All 4 sample results should be identical. If you want to get an idea what the real results are, go ahead and order a K2006 test kit and learn to use it. Then, do a set of K2006 tests on the refrigerated gallon when you take them to the dealers.

By the way, the water in the gallon will NOT test exactly like your pool. Sitting for 24 hours will change it. Refrigerating it should hold any further change to minimum.

Do NOT soak your cartridges in acid, unless you want to have to buy new ones. Acid can 'set' oils, so they can't be removed. It's very, very unlikely you need to clean them in acid. Instead, buy a garbage can that the cartridges will fit inside of, and fill it with enough water to cover the cartridges. Add 1# of trisodium phosphate for every 2 gallons of water. Get PLAIN trisodium phosphate (not: substitute) from Lowes paint department, or this link:

1lb Savogran Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001GOGQW/poolbooks) @ Amazon
5lb Savogran Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000AXE7CY/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Add 1 cup of bleach for each # of TSP. Spray off the cartridges, soak for 24 hours, then rinse thoroughly. If any scale is visible after soaking, you can ask about acid cleaning. But it's VERY unlikely you need it.

[PoolDoc]

upgraded membership and moved your post where you can access it. -ben

[capshockeyfan]

Hi Folks,

I just wanted to extend a sincere "thank you" to everyone who posted replies to my previous questions; this Forum is a wonderful resource! I figured the least I could do to show my appreciation was to subscribe and have done so this afternoon.

Since my last post, we did bite the bullet and had our pool drained, cleaned, and refilled; it now looks beautiful. When the water was added, the pool company told me they added 5 lbs. of dichlor as an initial shock. This was not my plan, but was an honest mistake on their part as that is what we had been using the past couple of years when our pool was opened by the same folks. Since the water was added, I have been using Arm and Hammer baking soda for pH adjustments and 6% plain bleach from Walmart as the chlorine source. I have also been using stabilized chlorinating tablets in the skimmer buckets (two tablets in each bucket). I had the water tested this morning and here are the results:

Free chlorine - 1.8 ppm
total chlorine - 1.8 ppm
combined chlorine - 0.0 ppm
ph - 7.7
hardness - 200 ppm
akalinity - 97 ppm
CYA - 10 ppm
nitrates - 0 ppm

I see my chlorine is still a little low and will add some more bleach this evening. My CYA is pretty low and I need to get this level boosted; is it okay to do so via more dichlor shock and or tablets added to the skimmer buckets? If it is best to just add CYA by itself, is there a recommended source? (Our pool is 36,000 gallons.)

I plan to gradually switch to a full BBB pool; and am wondering if it is okay to use up my previously purchased chemicals (tablets and dichlor shock) as long as I am keeping close watch on the pool chemistry? I purchased a 50lb bucket of tablets and a 25lb bucket of dichlor this past spring in preparation of our pool opening and hope to be able to finish them as long as I'm not messing up the pool chemistry.

Sorry if these questions have already been answered; now that I'm a full-member of the Forum I will be able to access previous threads, but I was hoping to get some quick help to these questions. Now that we have basically started from scratch, I'll post new threads when I have additional questions.

[aylad]

Thank you for subscribing to the forum!! The subscriptions go a long way toward helping keep this site up and running. ;)

Keep in mind that baking soda is used to raise alkalinity, rather than to control pH--we recommend Borax to raise the pH and muriatic acid to lower it. HOwever, dichlor and trichlor tabs both are acidic and drive pH down, so if you'll test for it daily, you'll probably find that you don't have to adjust the pH too much. Just don't let it get below 7.0. It is fine to keep using the trichlor tabs and dichlor to keep your chlorine levels up, as long as you stop at the point where you have targeted your CYA. The dichlor will add 9 ppm of CYA for every 10 ppm of chlorine, and the trichlor will add 6 ppm of CYA for every 10 ppm of chlorine--so I would test for CYA every couple of weeks or so, and just switch to bleach when your CYA levels get where you want them to be. Pay attention to the chlorine chart, though--remember that your chlorine levels have to rise when the CYA rises...so once your CYA gets to 20 ppm, your chlorine levels will have to stay between 3-6, no lower!!

Glad your pool is in good shape--now just be diligent about testing, and it should stay that way through the summer! Happy swimming :cool: