Newbie with MAJOR problem...

[MyBlueDog]

Hi Everyone,
Not going to believe this...

but my 18x36 inground marcite pool, built in 1986 (I just bought the house in '03), has what appears to be CONCRETE chunk stuck 3 inches inside of the main drain! Pool drain depth is 6'. YES... it is definitely concrete, and boy is it HARD.

For about 6 months, the vacuum side of my pump continued to pull in air. I couldn't figure this out. So I replaced literally everything above ground, with. still no luck. Until....:eek:

Amazing....

I stapped on the scuba gear, took a dive, popped the grill on the main drain, and put a mirror down there to see the clog in the 2" pipe! :eek:

Now for about 1 week, 4 tanks of air, and countless times trying to "break" the clog with a screwdriver, files, small saw blades, I got the thing about 1/4 of the way down. But it's a royal pain in the @#$.

And I can't get any leverage to try to lightly hammer on the clog with a hammer and screwdriver being under water.

1. Anyone have ANY ideas? :confused:
I'm trying to come up with anything without having to resort to draining the pool.

2. How the heck could a piece of concrete nearly 2 inches in diameter get in there in the first place? :confused:

Please help a newbie...
Daryl
Florida

P.S. Since hacking away and busting my knuckles underwater, the water circulation has improved, and the air resistance in the pump has started to dissipate.

Lesson: The clog is causing the air to be pulled from the water into the pump!

Now: How do I get rid of the frickin' concrete clog? :mad:

[CarlD]

Short of draining your pool and using a hammer-drill and concrete bit to cut through it, I don't know....

If there was something that would break the concrete down chemically, like salt or acid.....I dunno...

[MyBlueDog]

I tried injecting some acid onto it and letting it sit, and that definitely helped. But I'm reluctant to put a whole bunch of acid in there for obvious reasons, including fitting that contain PVC glue.

I think I know the answer, but anyone know if the big acid injection is doable?

[beary]

What about changing the plumbing temperarily and reverse the flow to push it out?

[MyBlueDog]

Thanks. Tried that already. No luck. It's almost as if the concrete got inside of the pipe and it dried in there.

Plus, 20 years of crap flowing through the main drain on the suction side, means every other spec of sand, rock, etc pool probably got captured by the clog and the whole thing calcified.

I wish I could snap a picture of this thing, cuz it's really an eye sore.

[Laguna Joe]

Buy an 8' long piece of angle or channel iron, or all-thread rod. Have someone position and hold the end against the concrete, while a second person uses a small sledge hammer on the end that juts out above the water level to drive the iron rod into the concrete chunk.

Pre-arrange a method to signal the top-side person so you can control or stop the hammering in the event of a problem or the need to reposition the iron rod.

And keep your fingers clear.

[roxy]

How about an electric plumber's snake? These electric augers can be rented from any rental store, and are usually at least 100 feet long. You can have someone above operating the motor as you feed the auger into the drain. I would again reverse the water flow to blow out any debris that may break up. Not very familiar with the construction of the main drain, so this is a shot in the dark! Good luck!
P.S. If you use anything electric be sure to plug it into a GFCI protected outlet and make sure the operator is familiar with the tool....those snake can easily get away from you!!

[waste]

Dog, welcome to the forum:) You say you have air bubbles in the pump, is there a chance that the pipe itself was breached allowing the concrete in, in the first place? If so, have care removing the obstruction as you might cause a fatal leak in the pipe (using power equipment or excessive force is also not a good idea as the pvc pipe will probably give before the concrete). If the crete was just a glob that ended up in the pipe a good poke should have freed it, I fear the pipe was compromised before the crete was poured/ shot (pvc & crete don't bond very well).
I would suggest keep doing what you have been (I know, pain in the @$%& and all those trips to the dive shop to refill). If you want to get a hammer and 1/2" cold chisel involved, have someone topside hold you down with your wallbrush, but be careful about the pipe. Once you get it down to ~ 1/4" mix up some 2 part epoxy (any plumbing store will have some) and generously coat the entire area, making sure that you have a good layer over the remaining concrete and adjacent pipe. Wish I could offer a better solution, but I believe this will take care of the problem. GOOD LUCK! - Waste

[duraleigh]

Dog,

Listen to "Waste"!

Bangin' on that PVC with power equipment or a sledge is an invitation to a much larger problem.

As an aside, it doesn't seem to me this is the source of a suction side air leak. It's not clear to me how air could be entering the system that far underground

[CarlD]

Dog,

Listen to "Waste"!

Bangin' on that PVC with power equipment or a sledge is an invitation to a much larger problem.

Hey! I was gonna suggest dynamite next! Are you saying that might not be a good idea?:confused:

[MyBlueDog]

Thanks.

Question for the engineers/scientists: Wouldn't a main drain suction blockage at 6' underwater, and a pump surface side 2' above cause the pump to pull oxygen from the water.

My thinking is since water contains O2, that any blockage in the main drain would restrict flow, causing the pump to work at the same rate, yet pull O2 from the water at a faster rate than it actually sucks the water.

Make sense?

[JJ in Tx]

How about a air chisel like on this page (http://www2.northerntool.com/cat-1/1625.htm),used very carefully of course.

[MyBlueDog]

How about a air chisel like on this page (http://www2.northerntool.com/cat-1/1625.htm),used very carefully of course.


Can you run an air chisel underwater? :rolleyes:

[JJ in Tx]

Never tried but was figuring that the "power" was all coming in thru the air hose and everything happening on/at chisel was exhaust from the operation. would make sure i oiled tool prior to and after use as well as run it a bit once it was out of the water to make sure it was "dry" before storing it.
JJ

[KurtV]

Thanks.

Question for the engineers/scientists: Wouldn't a main drain suction blockage at 6' underwater, and a pump surface side 2' above cause the pump to pull oxygen from the water.

My thinking is since water contains O2, that any blockage in the main drain would restrict flow, causing the pump to work at the same rate, yet pull O2 from the water at a faster rate than it actually sucks the water.

Make sense?

I don't think you can "pull" dissolved oxygen from water with suction. If you could oxygen from water that easily, you probably would have been using a device that does that instead of a tank for your dives.:rolleyes: (There are some devices for diving that allow you to extract breathable oxygen from water but I don't think the methodology is simple suction.)

Trying to think a little out of the box, is there any way you could drill a hole in the concrete chunk, insert a lead anchor, thread a lag bolt into the anchor, and pull the chunk out with a big pair of pliers?

[mshumack]

Can you run an air chisel underwater? :rolleyes:
yes, an air chisel will work underwater but you won't be able to see what your doing with all the bubbles from the exhaust (the ones I've seen all exhaust through the handle or body). If there was a way to vent the exhaust through a hose to some distant location ...

[MyBlueDog]

Trying to think a little out of the box, is there any way you could drill a hole in the concrete chunk, insert a lead anchor, thread a lag bolt into the anchor, and pull the chunk out with a big pair of pliers?

I don't know. I think I'm going to try to keep chiseling on it with a long screw driver and take my chances with air refills at the dive shop. What a nightmare. I really don't want to have to drain the pool, but that's what it's sound like the only solution may be.

**One note: When my skimmer level is nornal l(half way up with water), and the pump is set on main drain, the air coming into the pump seems to disappear.

I have a simple 2-way Jandy, turn on way for the skim, one for the main drain. It is a brand new valve. 1 week old.

This makes no sense to me.

Why would a correct water level in the skimmer (or lack thereof) dictate me getting air in the pump when the valve is set on main drain???:confused:

[KurtV]

**One note: When my skimmer level is nornal l(half way up with water), and the pump is set on main drain, the air coming into the pump seems to disappear.
...
This makes no sense to me.

Why would a correct water level in the skimmer (or lack thereof) dictate me getting air in the pump when the valve is set on main drain???:confused:
Maybe there's something to your theory about somehow pulling the dissolved O2 from the water...

More likely, the skimmer and the main drain are connected before the Jandy valve. I'm NOT a pool plumbing expert, but I know that skimmers can be plumbed with two outlets; one goes directly to the pump and the other connected to the main drain plumbing. Maybe one the builders will weigh-in and explain the reasons for that. If yours is plumbed that way, and the water is not at the proper level in the skimmer, the system could be sucking air in through the skimmer and into the main drain piping on the main drain side of the Jandy valve. (There's a picture of what I'm inadequately trying to explain about half-way down on the right side of this page:http://www.howibuiltmyownpool.com/modules.php?name=Construction&phase=plumbing-first-day.)

One other thought, try a small brick chisel or the like instead of a screwdriver; much harder steel.

[waste]

Hey Dog and others! RE: turbulence from an obstruction causing air bubbles - yup, it happens, I had a customer 5 yrs ago who had air in his hairstrainer but only when he vacuumed. My first thought was a pin hole in the vac hose, but using ours produced the same result. A pressure test revealed no leaks, however we got lucky and relieved the pressure at the skimmer and a bunch of acorn remains perked up into the skimmer. It seems he had vacd up ~5 lbs of acorns the previous fall with out the skimmer basket in place - they all collected at the first 90. The pertinent point to this story is that if the obstruction is lagre enough and you are only using that line for suction, the turbulance 'cavitatets' the water, hence the bubbles in the pump. This could be what was happening in your pool if you were only using the MD. As for the skimmer being fuller correcting the bubbles, if the obstruction was large enough - I'd be like having the MD valve off or the drain plugged, more work for the pump and skimmer line. What I picture happened was, with the water in the skimmer a little low, the 'extra' suction made the water vortex, sucking in a little air which appears as bubles in the pump (or the suction on that line was strong enough to drain the water out of the skimmer before the pool water could refill the skimmer - same thing happens when the weir is stuck in the vertical position) The only thing that comes to mind on the ? of why more water in the pool (higher on the skimmer) would aleiviate the MD bubbling is that the extra pressure from the water is enough to increase the boiling point of water, it would seem that if my theory is right you were on the margin of having the problem. (That's as scientific as I get :) )
Kurt(good to see you again,how was your winter?) Some builders do plumb the main drains into the second port of the skimmer and use a valve they place in the skimmer to regulate the 2 suctions(IMHO - very stupid for at least 2 reasons, 1. If the skimmer line fails you'll have no suction from the pool until it is fixed and can't run the system 2. If the water falls below the skimmer, you can't run the pool). However, as there is a valve for the MD, it must be running on it's own (clogged) line.
Carl, I too thought of the dynamite route, but I figured Dog would want some 'closure' on the issue and it would be really hard to identify that particular glob of crete and the pipe it was sitting in amidst all the mud, crete chunks and plastic shrapnel :D
Dave, I should have had you write my tag line - 'Listen to "Waste"' - I like it;)

[MyBlueDog]

Waste/Everyone,

Three points:

1. I think you are dead-on with your statements about "cavitation", the main drain obstruction. Keep in mind, the MD is a 2", and all I could get inside of the drain when inspecting it was my pinky. It is solid rock there (less what I've busted out recently). When I have the MD 100% turned on, cavitation.

2. The pool is definitely losing more than 1/2 inch a day here in Florida, at 87 consistent temp, and 82 water temp, over the last 48 hrs. I have bucket tested this. I am pretty confident there aren't any leaks, as I've spent the last month hunting done tiny leaks and filling them with A+B epoxy. Even the light has tested fine after removing it.

3. Point 3: I'm starting to think the crete was put there intentionally to plug a previous leak. Luckily, I tracked down the original owner here in town, who had the pool installed in 1986, and I'm waiting (hopefully) for them to call me so I can ask: Did you ever have a leak in the MD (and hopefully they can remember).

One more thing: I'm gonna take another dive, plug the MD for 24-48 hrs and see if that affects the bucket test.

This has truly been a tedious bizarre one.

[MyBlueDog]

Ok... I plugged the main drain for 24 hours using one of those PVC plugs with the wing nut on it that I got at Home Cheapo, and still I have over 1/2 of water loss.

So much for my theory that main drain was leaking and the crete was put their on purpose. :eek:

I'll plug the skimmer also and see if that slows it down.

Speaking of "slow" --- a slow process of elimination, huh? :mad:

[duraleigh]

Hi, Dog,

Thanks for keeping everyone posted. You've got lots of interested folks.

[South_Texas_Sun]

How about using an air drill with a masonry bit, putting a bit of electrical (waterproof) tape at a fixed depth on the bit (to avoid drilling through the bottom of the chunk and through the PVC) and drilling a hole for a concrete fastener?

Best case, you drill a pilot hole for a concrete screw (don't know the right name for them, but they have 'em at Lowes, etc) Then you use a wratchet/socket and install the screw. Grab screw with vise-grips and gently tug it out.

Worst case: Drilling and tapping breaks chunk in half and comes out in pieces.

CYA disclaimer: Be sure to unplug the air compressor before starting to drill, just in case the air hose has metal sheathing all the way down to the coupling! :)

[waste]

Ok... I plugged the main drain for 24 hours using one of those PVC plugs with the wing nut on it that I got at Home Cheapo, and still I have over 1/2 of water loss.

So much for my theory that main drain was leaking and the crete was put their on purpose. :eek:

I'll plug the skimmer also and see if that slows it down.

Speaking of "slow" --- a slow process of elimination, huh? :mad:
Dog, 'slow and steady wins the race' Finding a leak in a pool is an inexact science, but doing a 'process of elimination' will eventually find the problem. You are fortunate in that you dive, hiring a diver is $$$. If you chip away at it slow and steady, you'll save yourself sooo much trouble.
1st step is to do a vessel test, plug off all inlets and suction ports (using the bucket as you've done) and check the bucket vs pool loss. If no discernable difference is detectable, the leak is in the lines and that's where you need to focus your attention. Pressure testing each line isn't too hard and can further isolate the leak. Should you need more specifics, don't hesitate to ask, you seem to know the drill, so I'm not bothering to get too specific. Happy Mem Day!!

[MyBlueDog]

UPDATE *** UPDATE *** UPDATE

1. Plugged main drain with a 2" plug, complete with a wing nut. (Got it from Home Cheapo, dove the drain, and plugged the thing tight.)

***After 30 hrs, still water loss of about 1"

2. Kept the main drain plug in, bought another plug and plugged the skimmer. ***After 30 more hours, only about 1/8" water loss.

3. Bucket shows about 1/8 water loss after 30 hours.

4. I am going to pull the main drain plug now, and see if I've found the problem: The skimmer lines.

Let you know.

[waste]

Dog, sounds like you found the problem. Dry off, have a drink and don't run the skimmer. :)The repair on the skimmer will prbably involve a good bit of work, but if you need any help, just ask - you've done enough this weekend, sit back and enjoy the last few hours of it!

[HAYMAN]

I don't think you can "pull" dissolved oxygen from water with suction. If you could oxygen from water that easily, you probably would have been using a device that does that instead of a tank for your dives.:rolleyes: (There are some devices for diving that allow you to extract breathable oxygen from water but I don't think the methodology is simple suction.)

Trying to think a little out of the box, is there any way you could drill a hole in the concrete chunk, insert a lead anchor, thread a lag bolt into the anchor, and pull the chunk out with a big pair of pliers?



You guys are good........................lots of good stuff here. As I sit up here on the fence though, I would have to say I like the drill and pull method the best..........I would try that.

[PatL34]

MyBlueDog

Check your Inbox. Sent you a private message.

Pat

[MyBlueDog]

Hey Waste (and everyone),

Thanks for the advice. You said if I need help to write. So I am.

Now that I believe I've found the leak, and there's a temp. plug I placed in the skimmer, should I call out a leak detection service to pin point the thing...?

My goal is to try to keep my pool holding water. Mainly so I can use my skimmer.

My pool is screened, so I've never really used the skimmer since most of the debris stays out. I use my main drain, cuz I've been forced to. But more importantly, it's never held water. So I want the thing will hold water permanently!!!!

I'd rather not abandon the skimmer entirely by permanently plugging the skimmer hole until I determine fixing the thing may be either too costly or labor intensive. Know what I mean?

I am seriously thinking of buying some of that liquid leak sealer and following the instructions for 29 bucks and dumping that into the skimmer to see if it plugs it up.

Where would you start next? A leak company??

Ideas and advice, please.

Thanks,
Daryl Bluedog
Florida

[Tredge]

Well I'm no Expert....but I am dealing with the same/similar problem.

If that liquid leak sealer works it would be the first actual case I've heard. Not that it doesnt work....I just never heard of any confirmed reports.

An Alternative that I am currently considering:
Fish a tape through the skimmer back to the pump and pull a smaller hose through. You wouldnt get as much volume through the skimmer but this would be a cheap alternative to digging up and patching the broken pipe.

My Main drain is leaking badly and I'm considering pulling a hose this week through it. If it works I'll post in this forum with pictures.

I think you'd want to run a flexible hose rated for pool chemicals. A simple garden hose wouldnt stand up from what I've read.

[MyBlueDog]

Why use a hose? What does that accomplish? Please explain.

[Maxout]

What he's talking about is basically sleeving the existing pipe by running the hose through the inside of it. The tricky part would be sealing it at both ends so that water does not leak back along the outside of the Hose/Tubing and out the original leak. I would think that the loss of volume and added restriction would not make this a very good alternative.

[MyBlueDog]

What does the hose accomplish? Please explain!

[Maxout]

The hose does not have a leak in it. Your existing underground pipe you are running it through does. You would push /pull the hose through the entire length of your pipe then the hose would be sealed to the pipe at both ends and essentially becomes a new pipe, eliminating the leak. The problem is that in order for the hose to fit inside the existing pipe it must be a smaller diameter, this would restrict flow and total volume.

[Tredge]

Correct, The hose would replace the inside of the pipes.
Not as good as replacing the pipes but it's a lot cheaper than digging them up.

Sealing both ends should be fairly straight forward with proper fittings. I'll post any pictures when I get it finished.

Yes, it would be smaller diameter but it wouldnt leak :)

In my case the smaller diameter hose is an acceptable alternative. If anyone has a better Idea or reason not to try this I'm all ears.

[waste]

Hey Waste (and everyone),

Thanks for the advice. You said if I need help to write. So I am.

Now that I believe I've found the leak, and there's a temp. plug I placed in the skimmer, should I call out a leak detection service to pin point the thing...?

My goal is to try to keep my pool holding water. Mainly so I can use my skimmer.

My pool is screened, so I've never really used the skimmer since most of the debris stays out. I use my main drain, cuz I've been forced to. But more importantly, it's never held water. So I want the thing will hold water permanently!!!!

I'd rather not abandon the skimmer entirely by permanently plugging the skimmer hole until I determine fixing the thing may be either too costly or labor intensive. Know what I mean?

I am seriously thinking of buying some of that liquid leak sealer and following the instructions for 29 bucks and dumping that into the skimmer to see if it plugs it up.

Where would you start next? A leak company??

Ideas and advice, please.

Thanks,
Daryl Bluedog
Florida
Daryl, how to proceed depends on what you can afford vs. how badly you want the repair made and how quickly you want it made. For the most part, pool repairs are done on a 'time and materials' basis, you pay an hourly rate for the guys to come out and diagnose and make the repair + the cost of the materials they have to use to perform the fix. When your talking about having to dig under a deck to get to the problem, the price can skyrocket, just in digging time. There are some things you can do to lessen the time they are there, if you'd like me to fill you in on them, I will, gladly (however, no guarantees on 'workability' for your particular situation). If you want the skimmer for next weekend and can afford it, call in your local experts, it'll be one less thing on your mind. As per before, if I can be of any help, I will do all I can for you - Ted (a/k/a/ -WASTE)

[MyBlueDog]

Hi Ted,

So.... what do you recommend?

a. Try the 29 dollar quick sealer and run it through the skimmer to see if that solves the leak?

b. Call in a leak company to confirm what I know -- the skimmer is leaking somewhere below the skimmer line, and to pinpoint the leak.

Permanently fill my skimmer with concrete?

What??

Daryl

[waste]

Dayrl, I can't see how a $29 product could fix the leak, if you put it in with the system running, the air being drawn into the line would keep the sealant from getting where it needs to be, without the system running it could cause the same thing to your skimmer line that the concrete did to your MD. I'm thinking that getting the leak guys in there to let you know ~exactly where the problem is (again... IF THE COST OF HIRING THEM IS WORTH HAVING THE SKIMMER USEABLE) Depending on what they find, you may be able to fix it yourself or you may have to call in a pool company (but even if you have to 'call in the pros', you might be able to save some $ by doing some of the work yourself). If you decide to try the $29 fixit, don't let it in your filter, by it's nature that stuff will kill the filter. Wish I could check it out in person, but the next time I see Fla. will be out the window of the airplane when I go to the Bahamas in '08 ;) - Good luck, keep us informed -- Ted

[MyBlueDog]

**UPDATE EVERYONE

I have determined that I have two separate things going on.

1. My 2" main drain is 50% blocked by concrete, left over from a resurfacing job done in 1992. Tihis is causing restricted water flow, and cavitation in my pump. (top 1/8 of my pump is continual air)

2. My skimmer line is broken, somewhere underground, anywhere from the bucket to the pump. (This is causing my water loss.)

I am hiring a reputable leak guy for $150 to pressure test the skimmer line and find the link using compressed air and the electro-detection.

So I've got two pretty good problems to contend with. To me, the most important is keeping water in the pool.

I'll keep working at the main drain crete using a screwdrive and dive tanks. My red knuckles, even with dive gloves, thank you.

D.L.

[MyBlueDog]

** PROBLEM(s) ISOLATED & LESSONS FOR EVERYONE

According to a local, reputable leak detection service, and the owner of that company who I know has done over 1,000 leak detections in the past 2 years, I have two (2) completely separate issues occuring with my in-ground pool.

1. Main drain 60% blocked with concrete and cause cavitation in pump, return bubbles into pool, a loud, noisy pump, and top 1/8 of pump lid to have air in it.

Cause: Shoddy construction 20 years ago, confirmed by previous pool owner.

Lessons Learned
a. Do as much as you can on your own... but know when to fork out cash to get an expert.

In my case, the leak detection cost me $150, and the company found what was happening in less than 45 minutes.

b. Attempt to contact the previous owner of your pool.

In my case, my neighbor told me the name of the people who built the pool. Since they were NOT the previous owner I bought the house from, I looked them up in the phone book. I got lucky and they still live in my town. I called him, and he was very nice and said he had all kinds of problems with the pool contractor. So much so he never paid them (until they filed a lien against him.) His words to me, "I am not at all surprised you found concrete in the main drain.

2. Skimmer is broken at or near top 90 PVC fitting.

a. Leak company found this via pressure test. To double cjeck, they even drilled a pilot hole into my pool deck next to the skimmer, inserted a rod about 12 inches through the concrete into the soil. It was soaking wet.

Lessons Learned
Whenever you suspect a leak, start plugging holes! In my case, I plugged the skimmer and the leak stopped. This helped the leak company save time and isolate the problem, and only cost me $150 (vs. many other services that charge 300-$500).


What's Next? What Are The Costs?

1. Continue very gently to pick at the concrete in my main drain using a screwdriver and my dive tanks. Or leave it alone. (Cost: Free, just my time and air refills. Note: Leak company won't touch this, due to concerns about harming main drain.)

Once I get my skimmer repaired (below) I can abandon the main drain, if I want.

2. Cut out my skimmer and replace/repair it. This will involve cutting the deck around the skimmer, approximately 2x2', with a concrete saw, jackhammering the concrete, and getting underneath approximately 12-18" below the deck to attempt to make the repair. No... I'm not fooling with this. Cost: $700-$1,500. Repair/replacement is guaranteed by the leak repair company.

While I could use the $700-$1,500 elsewhere, that's for sure, it's worth making the repair for the long-haul and not fooling around with this.

[Waterworks]

I've had many customers use Fix-A-Leak. This product is poured into the water and disperses itself in such a way that it will seal tiny leaks just by circulating in the water. I am not sure if this is what you are talking about. I see a success rate of approximately 33 - 50%. I can think of one spa customer that was losing 40-60 litres per day over the winter and tried this product in March. They haven't lost any appreciable amount since. I would certainly say that it is worth a try. We only started selling it this year, and maybe sold 10 bottles with 4 or 5 being successful.

Brad
Waterworks Pools