Looking for pool shocking information from Ben Powell.

[burtom]

Hi:

Came here from pool solutions looking for pool shocking information from Ben Powell article on operating your pool at a high pH. New pool owner and took advice from someone who had me over shock with Trichlor now of course I am having trouble getting my Chlorine level down and my pH level up but am working on it. He mentioned a method of shocking that has improved results and I would like to know where that discussion is located.

Thanks
Burtom

[Watermom]

Hi and welcome to the Pool Forum. We'll need more information to be able to help. First off, we need actual current water testing results. What kind of kit did you use? Test strips don't count. The only kit we truly recommend is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C which you can get through the test-kit page in my signature below. But, it is only available online so you need something to use in the meantime. Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

It's much easier to answer your questions, when we know something about your pool. We often 'waste' the first few posts back and forth collecting information. So, please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds, but will save much more than that.

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

Once we have the requested information, someone here can try and help you get your pool in good shape. Hope this helps!

[PoolDoc]

I wrote that page about 15 years ago, and need to re-edit it again.

The better shocking method requires that you have a sand filter and use calcium hypochlorite, which is MUCH harder to find than it was 15 years ago.

Also, it won't do anything to solve your current problems. You need to start adding a box of 20 Mule Team borax (slowly, via the skimmer, pump running) every 4 hours for every 10,000 gallons in your pool, till you get your pH above 7.0.

And, you probably do NOT want to bring your chlorine level down. If it's been at all sunny, and your chlorine level hasn't dropped on it's own, it's probably because your stabilizer is very high . . . and in THAT case, you NEED high chlorine. Read the "Best Guess" page linked in my signature, for the explanation.

And get a kit. You can NOT do a good job with your pool, without good info, and 'guess strips', even when read by a dealer, do NOT count!

[burtom]

I have posted everything but the pump model. I have been using guess strips and a drop kit for Chlorine and PH. I will be looking asking my wife about buying the K2006 or K2006C from Amazon this weekend.
Current readings from guess strip are PH 7.2 after adding a box of Borax, Total Alkalinity 120, Chlorine about 9 and Stabilizer 100. With the drop kit Free and Total Chlorine both are off scale and PH reads about 7.5 after a box of Borax. Next question are the chemicals good for more that one year in the K2006C?

Thanks
Tom

[Watermom]

Next question are the chemicals good for more that one year in the K2006C?

Yes.

Also, your stabilizer could actually be much higher than 100. Tests can't differentiate readings past that value. Order the K-2006 and then run the CYA test on a diluted sample. Take one part pool water and mix it with one part distilled water. Use that water for the CYA test and then multiply the results by 2. If you still get a reading of 100, repeat it but use one part pool water and two parts distilled water and multiply the results by 3. That will help to give a better idea of what your CYA level actually is.

[PoolDoc]

I'd recommend starting with a 1:3 dilution (multiply x 4). He'll use up his CYA reagent getting there, otherwise. (One of the weak points in the K2006A is that it contains only 6 x CYA tests.)

[burtom]

Thank you everyone I have ordered the K2006A kit and will be back with results.

Tom

[Watermom]

Good deal!

[burtom]

Hi Everyone:

I did my testing with the kit and the results are:
1.6 PPM Free Chlorine
.2 PPM Combined Chlorine
7.7 PH
160 PPM TA
140 PPM Calcium Hardness
228 CYA

Thanks
Tom

[PoolDoc]

That's a really odd reading for the CYA. How did you get that result?

Here's the Taylor video: K2006 Cyanuric acid (CYA) test (http://youtu.be/8whkC5WtS8g)

Check again, and if that result is correct, you need to read the Best Guess page, linked in my signature, right away.

Good luck!

[burtom]

That's a really odd reading for the CYA. How did you get that result?

Here's the Taylor video: K2006 Cyanuric acid (CYA) test (http://youtu.be/8whkC5WtS8g)

I added 3 cups of distilled water to 1 cup of pool water and did the test as described. 7 mL of the diluted water and 7 mL of the agent and multiplied the point where I could not see the black dot by 4.

Thanks
Tom

[PoolDoc]

results are:
FC 1.6
CC 0.2
pH 7.7
TA 160
CH 140
CYA 228

Ok. Well, your water is OK, except for the super high CYA. Here are your options, 2 with draining, and 2 without:

1. Drain and refill. This is NOT recommended on a 20 year old vinyl pool.

2. Do an in-pool drain and refill. Slow and requires a vinyl winter cover that's about 12' wider than the pool on all sides.

3. Run a HiC2 pool -- high chlorine to compensate for your high CYA. That's OK, but it means NORMAL chlorine levels will be around 15 ppm on your pool and shock levels will be about 30 ppm. This should be pretty easy with the K2006, so long as you have no algae. But, to get rid of algae might require FC = 60 ppm!

4. Run a sorta HiC2 pool -- high normal chlorine (15 - 20 ppm) but with sodium bromide and polyquat on hand to use, instead of having to push FC levels to 30 or even 60 ppm.

If I were you, I'd opt for #4, but it's up to you. Regardless, with options #3 or #4, you don't want your CYA level to keep climbing, so you've got to switch to bleach (or 10 - 15% 'liquid pool chlorine', if it's available) OR calcium hypochlorite granular. Using calcium will require special methods -- not hard, just different -- to avoid replacing high CYA levels with high calcium levels.

One HUGE downside to the HiC2 method: if you let your pool get slimed over the winter, there is an good chance that the CYA will be converted by bacteria to ammonia over the winter, leaving you with so much ammonia that it would literally take 400 ppm FC to clean up in spring. So, you can NOT allow the pool to slime over the winter. Closing clean, plus using repeated polyquat doses over the winter, plus Minnesota temps should make this easy, if you just pay a bit of attention to the pool after closing.

Lemme know what you want to do.

[burtom]

Hi Ben:

The pool is 20 years old but I did have the liner replaced last year so I would like to hear about option 1 at least and what it consists of if the new liner helps. The question I have is how did the CYA get this high? Was it using the Trichlor shock and Trichlor tabs? I mean the water in the pool is only 2 years old. What steps should I take to keep this from happening again assumine we get it straightened out?

Thanks
Tom

[burtom]

Hi Ben:

I guess I would also like infomation on 3 and 4 like what special procedures with the Calcium Hypochlorate and will the CYA ever drop?

Thanks
Tom

[aylad]

Your CYA got as high as it is from the use of stabilized chlorine like trichlor--with trichlor, for ever 10 ppm of chlorine it adds, it also adds about 6 ppm of CYA, so over a 2 year period it can get quite high.The only way to lower it is through water waste (splashout, frequent filter backwashes, partial drains, etc). It will come down, eventually, if you do not use any more stabilized chlorine, but it will be very, very, very slowly. You can do several partial drain/refills to help it along without hurting your liner too much, but if you completely drain the pool, the liner will float and will not be able to be refilled, in most cases, which is why Pooldoc stated that #1 above wouldn't be recommended. However, you could drain some of the water--a foot or two at a time, and refill that, and shouldn't hurt anything.

For more information on 3 and 4, take a look at the best guess chlorine chart linked in Pooldoc's sig above. It will explain the chlorine/CYA relationship and specify where your chlorine levels will have to be in order to run the pool with the CYA that you have.

Regar

[burtom]

Your CYA got as high as it is from the use of stabilized chlorine like trichlor--with trichlor, for ever 10 ppm of chlorine it adds, it also adds about 6 ppm of CYA, so over a 2 year period it can get quite high.The only way to lower it is through water waste (splashout, frequent filter backwashes, partial drains, etc). It will come down, eventually, if you do not use any more stabilized chlorine, but it will be very, very, very slowly. You can do several partial drain/refills to help it along without hurting your liner too much, but if you completely drain the pool, the liner will float and will not be able to be refilled, in most cases, which is why Pooldoc stated that #1 above wouldn't be recommended. However, you could drain some of the water--a foot or two at a time, and refill that, and shouldn't hurt anything.

Ok so I would drain the pool until there is 3 or 4 inches of water in the shallow end refill the pool and repeat this 3 or so times and then check the CYA level again. When it has normalized which is between 10 and 50 PPM how would I avoid this problem in the future? A friend helping me this spring had me do 4 separate shocks with 4 full containers about Gatorade sized of granulated Trichlor to kill my algae and that is when I saw the stabilizer level go way up on my test strips. Is using Stabilized chlorine at all a bad idea? How does one use calcium hypochlorite appropriately?

[PoolDoc]

You can drain that way, IF you make sure (a) the ground water level is BELOW the level you drain down to. (Not a problem in most of the country, right now!) and (b) that there's at least 8" of water above the HIGHEST horizontal liner covered point. (So, if you have vinyl covered STEPS, you can't drain at all!)

Chemically, you usually have to use a mixture of both stabilized and unstablized chlorine, in order to avoid stabilizer level creep.

Get a K2006, learn to use it, tell me what your test results are . . . and then I'll explain using cal hypo without CALCIUM creep. Till then, use PLAIN 6% household bleach.

[Watermom]

Ben,
He's got a K2006 and his test results are in post #9 above.

[burtom]

Chemically, you usually have to use a mixture of both stabilized and unstablized chlorine, in order to avoid stabilizer level creep.

Can a person just use 6% household bleach or is there an advantage to using stabilized Chlorine and Calcium Hypo Chloride instead of household bleach?

Thanks
Tom

[burtom]

I have another question about beach, how do you add it to the pool? Pour slowly into the skimmer would be the obvious way to me. The next best I can think of is to pour in front of a return.

Thanks
Tom

[PoolDoc]

Using bleach alone is fine; you just have to manually add enough stabilizer to maintain good levels (probably, 40+ ppm).

Adding it via the skimmer is good, SO long as you have ZERO other chemicals anywhere in your system. Adding chlorine that way, can help avoid certain filter problems, since you regularly super-super-chlorinate your filter.

[burtom]

Using bleach alone is fine; you just have to manually add enough stabilizer to maintain good levels (probably, 40+ ppm).

Adding it via the skimmer is good, SO long as you have ZERO other chemicals anywhere in your system. Adding chlorine that way, can help avoid certain filter problems, since you regularly super-super-chlorinate your filter.

Thanks for the help. The only other chemicals I have in my system are already in my pool and my stabilizer level is through the roof so I should be good this year.

Tom