Run around at pool store

[miker1755]

I am here because I am clearly confused and the local pool store seems to be just consuming my wallet. First of all, my water looks great but I have this re-current algae problem, clearly due to my real problem....I can't seem to maintain a chlorine level. I have used 3 bottles of "Blackout", I shock, I load my feeder, I add an additional floating feeder...still I can't seem to maintain an acceptable chlorine level, which explains why I keep having an algae issue. Getting really tired of brushing the pool and spending money on shock. I seems to have escalating phosphates but understand that nothing matters if I can't maintain the chroline level. One store says my phosphates are 1000+, another says "0"......No wonder I am confused! Any big ideas out there? Also, can I use phosphate removers for ponds and lakes in my pool at reduced amounts? The stuff at the pool store is waaaay over priced IMO....or do phosphates really matter? I have back washed my fiilters, broke down and cleaned my filter innereds and still growing algae. My pool needs to be replastered but I don't really think it that bad. White plaster pool, 17,500 gallons in the greater Houston area

[Watermom]

First off, welcome to the Pool Forum! Secondly, stay out of the pool store. They exist to make money so of course, they are going to keep finding products for you to buy. My guess of what is going on with your pool is that you have used stabilized chlorine for a long time (trichlor pucks, dichlor shock powder) and the CYA level in your pool got really high. Then, over the winter, the CYA biodegraded and left you with a pool full of ammonia and an unsatiable chlorine demand. We see this every year and this year has been particularly bad. Any idea what your CYA reading was when the pool closed in the fall? Any idea what the CYA level is now?

We really can't do too much without a good set of current water testing results taken with a drops-based kit. The kit we really prefer is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C which you can get through the test kit link in my signature below. However, it is only available online so you'll need something to use while you await its arrival.

For now, get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

While you are at Walmart, buy several jugs of plain, unscented bleach (generic is fine) and a couple boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax (laundry aisle).

It's much easier to answer your questions, when we know something about your pool. We often 'waste' the first few posts back and forth collecting information. So, please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds, but will save much more than that.
Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

Repost and let us know which test kit you get and give us some current numbers and someone will try and help you go from there.

[miker1755]

I am still locked out of a number of items in your signature, like test kits, pool chemicals using muratic acid etc.

[miker1755]

I wrote a detailed explantion of where I am but lost it! I think I have posted my pool spec 2 times and clearly don't know how to edit the info. Bottom line is I got the 6 way test from Wal mart with the following:

Cl=5.0 after adding some granular Cl as the reading was 0.
pH=7.3
Hardness 540
CYA 90+
Alk 110


Tap / fill water: Cl 3.0
pH 7.6
hardness 170
Alk 230
cya 0


I am waiting on your recommendation with bleach and borax in hand. My pool is 17500 gallons 19' wide x 35 ' long with 5' depth in the middle & 3.5' at both ends. 2 hp pump, Nautilus ns-60 DE filter, Polaris 380 cleaner with booster pump.

[PoolDoc]

I've got to leave for a couple of hours -- I'll post more when I return.

For now, read the "Best Guess" page linked in my sig -- it explains a lot that's relevant to your situation. And, if you would, go ahead and complete the pool chart. The output makes it easy for me to see what you've got.

One other question: are you showing any scale formation? Your hardness is high enough to cause problems, especially if you have a heater or SWCG.

OK, I lied. One more thing: test your fill water. I need to know where all that hardness came from.

[miker1755]

My post of yesterday at 10:42 pm has my pool and TAP water test results from the HTH 6 way test......Tap / fill water: Cl 3.0 pH 7.6 hardness 170 Alk 230 cya 0. Regarding scale, I have some but not extreme in my opinion, primarilly on tile around the spillover from my raised spa into my pool. I have a heater but only use it to heat the spa in the winter so it doesn't get much use but I do have some heater questions I will save for when I am an admitted member off probation. I do not have a SWCG! Clearly with my level of knowledge I am no spammer or industry expert trying to show off my knowledge! It is really kind of funny as I have heard others complain about their problems with their pool and mine has always been relatively easy to take care of.....until now! I will re-complete the pool data chart but I already have, twice I believe, but am not able to edit for corrections / mistakes / missing info at the time. Sorry if that's a nusiance so delete the prior data found there under my screen name!

[PoolDoc]

My bad. Sorry; I should have searched the chart. This is something new, for us, and I've had no time to organize it further. Regarding the restrictions, we seem to have the spammer problem under control. Frankly the reason I haven't lifted the restrictions is just to keep people out, period. There are more of y'all than there are of us, and traffic has gone through the roof here. We're not sure why, but we can not keep up.

And, I'd rather keep people out altogether -- they can still lurk and read -- then let them in, and ignore them. We're trying to figure out how to handle the increased interest, without cutting quality, but it looks like any real answers will have to wait till next year. However, you now are among those with access.

Anyhow, here's what you should do, short term with your pool:

1. Make sure you understand the Best Guess chart.

2. Get some muriatic acid, maybe 2 gallons, at Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Read the muriatic acid page, and then lower your pH to near 7.0, and keep it there. This will help stop scaling, and will gradually lower your TA. However, once you get to pH 7.0, it will require repeated additions of acid to keep it there. That's OK.

3. Do NOT add any baking soda (alk up) or sodium carbonate (pH up). If you should need to raise your pH, use 20 Mule Team borax ONLY.

4. Find a CLEAN white 5 gallon bucket, and get a gallon of fresh PLAIN 6% household bleach, so we can do a bucket test on your pool water.

5. Continue to shock each evening. If you currently have no algae, 1 -2 gallons of plain bleach nightly should be sufficient.

6. Let me know when you are ready to go on the bucket test. We can use that, to get an idea of what's wrong with your pool, and what it will take to fix it.

7. Finally, make as complete list with EXACT chemical names, of ALL chemicals you've used since opening. I'm particularly looking for info on the 'shock' material you've used AND any granular algaecides.

[PoolDoc]

This thread had lost its way, so I moved all the discussions about missing posts here:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16908

[miker1755]

Pool Doc-

My answers to your questions follow your questions below....(in bold)

1. Make sure you understand the Best Guess chart....(I have printed it out and studied it and I believe that I do. With my CYA in the 100 range if I interpert the chart correctly it tells me that my CL level needs to be between 8 to 15 for FC and 25 to truly "shock". Of course this begs the questions if I should drain and replace water to bring down CYA?)
2. Get some muriatic acid, maybe 2 gallons, at Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Read the muriatic acid page, and then lower your pH to near 7.0, and keep it there. This will help stop scaling, and will gradually lower your TA. However, once you get to pH 7.0, it will require repeated additions of acid to keep it there. That's OK. (DONE)

3. Do NOT add any baking soda (alk up) or sodium carbonate (pH up). If you should need to raise your pH, use 20 Mule Team borax ONLY. ( Got it. Ususally doing nothing raises my pH.)

4. Find a CLEAN white 5 gallon bucket, and get a gallon of fresh PLAIN 6% household bleach, so we can do a bucket test on your pool water. ( Ready and awaiting further instructions...I think. Is CLEAN the real requirment as I have a brand new but BLUE bucket. I have clean but not new white buckets that chlorine came in. Which is preferred?)

5. Continue to shock each evening. If you currently have no algae, 1 -2 gallons of plain bleach nightly should be sufficient. (How long should I expect to do this? Should I buy out the local WalMart of bleach?)

6. Let me know when you are ready to go on the bucket test. We can use that, to get an idea of what's wrong with your pool, and what it will take to fix it. (Ready NOW!)

7. Finally, make as complete list with EXACT chemical names, of ALL chemicals you've used since opening. I'm particularly looking for info on the 'shock' material you've used AND any granular algaecides. (Did this before but it got lost. I'll save a copy and cut & paste as necessary in the future which of course means it won't be necessary! Here goes.....


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
Note that I am in Houston Texas so we do not open and close our pools with the seasons. We heat and use our spa in the winter and that is about it.

I "normally" chlorinate with 3" pucks sold by my local store under their brand name...but it's Trichloro-s-triazinetrione 99%

I historically did not ever shock much but have needed to more recently (last year or 2) with something sold under the name of "Zappit 73". It's Calcium Hypochlorite 73% I have used a ton of this stuff (2+ 25# buckets) lately but to no avail although I have determined that I probably was not using enough to really get the FC level where it needed to be to "shock" especially considering the Best Guess chart as I understand it.

I was never as regular as I probably should have been but I did a weekly maintenance does of Metal Out / Stain Blocker but no where are ingredients listed but the stuff is clear and looks like water. Could be just a scam to get money from me but I didn''t bother to taste it to be sure just the same.

Of late, I have been using the HTH brand of chlorinating granuals (Calcium Hypochlorite 47.6%) just to try and quickly establish a chlorine level when it appeared there was none as I know why I have algae when there is no chlorine. I bought a 16 pound bucket and still have not used all of it so obviously I have not used that much of this stuff.

My store sells something called "Blackout" and per the website it is: CHEMICAL NAMES & SYNONYMS: Trichloroisocyanuric acid; Trichloro-s-triazinetrione compound CHEMICAL FAMILY: Chlorinated Isocyanurates CHEMICAL FORMULA: 81% - C N O Cl TRADE NAME: Nuclo Shock, Ortex Pool Shock and Private Label DESCRIPTION: White crystalline granules having a chlorine odor.CAS NO. 87-90-1 NFPA RATINGS (SCALE 0-4): HEALTH=2 FIRE=0 REACTIVITY=2 HMIS RATINGS (SCALE 0-4): HEALTH=2 FLAMMABILITY=0 REACTIVITY=2
It was sold to me as some sort of "Super Chlorinator" that will kill whatever is haunting you but it hasn't solved my current problem. It has been used on occasion, more so recently. Not in relative huge quantities. I was originally sold this stuff to kill the small black dots of what I was told is "black algae" that are nearly impossible to get rid of in my experience. I stll have the small black dots of algae and would welcome any advice on getting rid of them!

Note that my pool is 13 years old and I am still on my original plaster but am looking at re-plastering at the end of this season unless told otherwise. Generally I have been told that I have already gottem more years out of my plaster than is typical but not sure if that is true!

Of last the local pool store told me my phosphates were + 1000 so I used something from Natural Chemicals out of Canada called "Phos Free Commercial Strength" as well as "Pool Perfect+ PhosFree" for weekly maintenance. No where on either of these bottles does it tell me what this stuff really is.

Quite some time ago I used stuff marketed under the name of "No Mor Problems". It seems widely available so you probably know what is in it but I was told that it was an algecide mostly. I had a half gallon of that stuff laying around that was so old it lost it color so I dumped it in the pool just to get rid of it thinking it couldn't hurt. Golf courses would be jealous of the beautiful green it turned my pool, almost immediately. I won't do that again! I have also sparingly used the liquid HTH Algecide sold by Home Depot occasionally but not reallt that much. That I know of I have never used any granular aglecides.

Typically my pool water is crystal crear so I have very rarely used clarifiers.

I did recently completely break down and clean my DE filter but that hasn't really helped either.

Even now with 2 or 3 days of a gallon or 2 of bleach in the evening and my chlorine feeder full and maxed open, when I get home in the afternoon, my FC level is O or negligible.

That is about it. Hope that helps in your diagnosis Doc. I await further instructions!)

[PoolDoc]

1. Please start using this form. I've already entered your 6/12 tap water and pool results. You please enter any subsequent results + chemicals used. The 2nd link takes you to the output.

Miker1755 form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dE1mLW5RaDRxUmNRcGpqbkZ5SXF1cGc6M A#gid=0)
Miker1755 results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdE1mLW5RaDRxUmNRcGpqbkZ5SXF1c Gc)

2. A blue bucket may be OK, so long as it's not so dark blue you can't seen the bottom clearly.

3. Bucket test for lime softening:

fill the bucket w/ ~4 gallons of pool water.
add 1 tablespoon of bleach & mix.
add 1 tablespoon of either pH UP (sodium carbonate) OR Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Arm-Hammer-Super-Washing-Soda-Detergent-Booster-Household-Cleaner-55-oz/19407690)
cover and wait 24 hours
inspect; note results; recover & wait 24 hours
inspect again; report results


4. Pool test:
Add 2 cups of washing soda directly to the skimmer (first remove any tabs present)
After 1 hour, check filter pressure; clean if needed; repeat dose.
Repeat 2 more times (8 cups total)
Wait 4 hours; test pH *and* total alkalinity.

5. Order a K2006 -- to run down your chlorine demand, you'll need a more accurate test than the HTH 6-way

Lemme know if you have any problems.

[miker1755]

Arm & Hammer Washing Soda? Is that different from 20 Mule Team Borax? Or no difference?

[Watermom]

They are not the same thing. Washing soda is sodium carbonate. It will raise pH and alk. Borax is sodium tetraborate. It will raise pH without affecting alk much.

[miker1755]

k2006 kit received today. Bucket test and pool test results added to history remarks along with latest test details. FC & CC 111. Algae bloom seems to be under control. Chlorine level seems to be being maintained. Will continue to monitor closely. For pool of my size, what should normal expected liquid chlorine addition on what basis should be expected to be added? (1 gal per day, 1/2 gal every other day etc.?)

[Watermom]

In your pool, each gallon (4 quarts) of 6% bleach will add 3.6ppm of chlorine. Use that as a reference to help you figure out doses of bleach to add. With a CYA of 90, you need to be keeping your chlorine between 5-10 all the time or risk an algae bloom. And, when you do need to shock, your shock level will be 20ppm. Test the chlorine (and pH) each evening. At that time, add enough bleach to get the chlorine back up to 10ppm. With a CYA as high as yours is, you may find that you can add bleach every 2 or 3 days instead of daily without the cl dropping below 5ppm. You'll soon learn how your pool behaves through testing with your kit and through observation of your water.

By the way -- you might want to try those chlorine tests again. You don't have a FC and a CC reading of 111. This testing demo may be helpful to you:

http://www.taylortechnologies.com/ChemistryTopicsCM.ASP?ContentID=11
http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_choose_slideshow.asp

[PoolDoc]

Try this link, instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZvF5q_amVs

[Watermom]

Huh. How come I didn't know about that link? Y'all hiding stuff from me again? :p;)

[PoolDoc]

Uh, I uploaded all the Taylor vids, because they are so hard to view, and can't be directly linked. I meant to put them in sticky in testing, but I forgot about them. Here are all the ones I've put up:


K2006 FAS-DPD FC & CC test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZvF5q_amVs

K2006 pH test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ZNiyhfyiU

Taylor pH test interferences
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3nFLchjGN0

Taylor total alkalinity (TA) interferences
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpS--VsNrY

K2006 calcium hardness (CH) test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAQyi4QYtP0

K2006 Cyanuric acid test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8whkC5WtS8g

K2006 Cyanuric acid test
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8whkC5WtS8g

[miker1755]

At some point in the recent past, Pool Doc said to keep my pH at 7.0. Now that my basic problem is maintaining a CL level SEEMS to be under control, should pH stay around 7 or the more normal typically recommended of 7.4 -7.6?

[AnnaK]

Hi Mike,

In post #7 in this thread Ben advised to drop pH to 7 using muriatic acid. His goal, if I understand it correctly, was to avoid further scaling since your calcium hardness was very high.

I just looked at the numbers you posted in your chemical chart. The FC and CC look great! Yes, it makes sense to have CC = 0. That's the entire point of it! Good work. Unfortunately, there were no test results for alk (TA) and CH. Ben was hoping to be able to determine why your CH is so high. Until he can look at this thread again and refresh his memory it would be best to keep the pH low. One of the mods will make sure Ben takes a look at this and advises you further.

[miker1755]

I have reposted additional testing stats as requested to include TA & CH. When testing for CH, titration to change sample from red to blue. Mine is really kind of purple more so than blue, but blue after sitting for a few minutes. Additionally the sample seems to have something that appears to not totally dissolve and I'm wondering of my chemicals are ok or is what I am seeing "normal"

[AnnaK]

Thanks Mike. Chlorine looks good. Ben may have some comments about the TA and CH.

[miker1755]

While waiting for the Pool Doc's comments and recommendations, can someone opine regarding the tradeoff between maintaining a higher FC level due to higher CYA levels and draining and replacing pool water to reduce CYA levels making higher CL levels un-necessary?

[aylad]

I run a high CYA pool on purpose. (80-90 ppm). I lose less chlorine daily, and I can dose every 2-3 days instead of daily.

[miker1755]

Does a high CYA level actually mean you loose less CL daily or is your CL level high enough that even after 2-3 days your CL level doesn't drop to the point where an algae bloom can get started?

[aylad]

I lose less chlorine. For example. When my CYA is 40-50, I lose 4-6 ppm per day. At CYA of 90, I lose 2-3 ppm per day. My baseline Cl levels have to be higher, but my chlorine loss to the sun is half by running the higher CYA.

[PoolDoc]

Regarding calcium and alkalinity -- did you watch the Taylor interferences videos? How did those results compare to yours?

Regarding high CYA + high chlorine (HiC2) -- we had a pro & con discussion among the moderators and the PF Team members, and the downsides most people were concerned with were

1. The need to use EXTREMELY high chlorine levels to clear mustard or black algae, possibly over 50 ppm. These levels can take a very long time (3+ weeks) to drop.

2. Difficulties with pH testing (see the Taylor pH interferences video -- stickied in the Testing section)

Janet (Aylad) runs a near HiC2 pool (CYA levels almost identical to yours) with few problems, but otherwise, I was the only one completely comfortable with the HiC2 approach. However, since that debate, we've done some testing that suggest the pH test IS accurate with high chlorine levels, IF you read the test within 5 - 10 seconds. If you let it sit, before reading it, you'll get bogus results.

For what it's worth, I've been running a large (200,000 gallon) commercial pool at CYA ~90 and FC ranging from 5 - 25 ppm (typically 12 - 20 ppm) this season, with ZERO complaints. No one has noticed, except the health inspector, who commented that the chlorine was "a little high - 10 ppm" (it was really about 20 ppm that day!). I've repeatedly asked the lifeguards if anyone has the pool being irritating, and none of them have.

This pool has always been extremely prone to mustard algae, possibly because it's right on the Tennessee River, and I've noticed the algae will try to return with levels get below FC=10ppm.

Regarding the algae problem, my preference is to take the chlorine to 30 ppm, and hold it there. If that doesn't solve the problem, the next step is to add small amounts of sodium bromide, creating a small unstabilized bromine residual. Without the presence of DMH (dimethyl hydantoin, used in formulating bromine tabs), bromide is converted to bromate (non-regeneratable) in a matter of days.

So . . . personally, I would NOT recommend trying to lower your CYA level. But, not all my moderators and Support Team members agree. (Yet. ;) )

I did want to ask a question about your bucket test: when you added the soda ash, no clouding occurred? No sediment formed on the bottom? Can you try again, with these guidelines: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16992 ?

[miker1755]

Regarding high CYA + high chlorine (HiC2) -- we had a pro & con discussion among the moderators and the PF Team members, and the downsides most people were concerned with were

1. The need to use EXTREMELY high chlorine levels to clear mustard or black algae, possibly over 50 ppm. These levels can take a very long time (3+ weeks) to drop.
My black algae seems to survive no matter what but I haven't trield CL levels that high!

2. Difficulties with pH testing (see the Taylor pH interferences video -- stickied in the Testing section)
Do you recommend I keep my pH around 7.0? My saturation wheel readings indicate that my pool will be better off (I can't remember if it was to be corrosive or otherwise) at 7.4 - 7.6

I saw no cloudiness and assumed the sediment on the bottom was the soda ash (washing soda) so I assumed that was to be expected. I will re-review the thread and re-run this weekend.

After having dumped so much borax into the pool, should I be backwashing my DE filter even though my pressure remains acceptable?
Just FYI, I took back 40# of pucks and 25# of shock to the pool store today so I am pleased with the PF approach. KUDOS TO THE TEAM! ;-)

Currently it seems I have to add 1/2 gal of CL ever 2-3 days but am still trying to fiddle with it to get a better baseline.

Does a high CYA level actually mean you lose less CL daily or is your CL level high enough that even after 2-3 days your CL level doesn't drop to the point where an algae bloom can get started?

[PoolDoc]

We don't have good data on chlorine loss, if you follow the Best Guess chart, at different CYA levels. What seems to be true is, the chlorine loss is similar, regardless of CYA levels. However, at HiC2 levels, you have a much, much larger reservoir of chlorine present, so there's a larger safety factor, if you miss a day or have a pool party. And, at levels around CYA=150 ppm, you can usually dose with chlorine just 1x per week.

[miker1755]

No wonder that I am confused...

On 6-16-12 @ 10:04 am, regarding a bucket test I was told....

3. Bucket test for lime softening:
fill the bucket w/ ~4 gallons of pool water.
add 1 tablespoon of bleach & mix.
add 1 tablespoon of either pH UP (sodium carbonate) OR Arm & Hammer Washing Soda
cover and wait 24 hours
inspect; note results; recover & wait 24 hours
inspect again; report results

In the forum stickys reagarding Alkalinity & Calcium problems it says:
To perform a lime softening test, you'll need the following:
A white 5 gallon bucket.
A 1 gallon or 1/2 gallon clean milk jug or orange juice container (to measure with).
A Taylor K-2006 test kit -- you will need most of the tests in that kit. (Test kit info page)
A jug of plain 6% household bleach.
A box of Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (from Walmart)
Lids or towels you can cover to cover the buckets.
A plastic or stainless steel tablespoon measure
A clean household long-handled stainless or plastic cooking spoon
The capability to vacuum to waste. <= This is CRITICAL!

To carry out the test:
Use the gallon or half gallon measure to collect pool water.
Fill the first white bucket with 4 gallons of POOL water.
(Measure by adding 4 measured gallons OR by adding 33 lbs of water to the buckets).
Add 1 tablespoon of bleach, and mix.
Test your POOL water's hardness; round result up to nearest 100 ppm
Add 1 tablespoon of soda ash to bucket for each 100 ppm of hardness, plus one more tablespoon.
Mix thoroughly, and cover.
(The water should turn very cloudy, after you add the soda ash. If it does not, ask us what's going on!)
Inspect after 24 hours, and again after 48 hours for settling.
If mixture does settle, test clear liquid from top for calcium hardness.
10. Verify that sediment is a thin layer that can be vacuumed up.

I am re-conducting a bucket test and am using 5 TBS of A&H Washing Soda but my original test only had 1 TBS....which is correct?
(My CH is at 400, which according to the abbreviations listing is "in range" although clearly at the high end.
Also, is soda ash and sodium carbonate the same? My bucket water is cloudy, that's for sure!

[PoolDoc]

Yeah.

For better, and for worse, PoolForum content is 'in motion'.

I can pretty much guarantee you that those bucket tests will be at least slightly different next year than they are now. You got one of the early, "Hey, we can probably solve problems this way!", before I realized, "Hey, we can solve a BUNCH of problems this way, and I need to write a more careful sticky!"

[miker1755]

So please clarify what the current thinking is and which should I be doing now and the other questions posed previously (soda ash v. sodium carbonate etc.)

[PoolDoc]

The posted sticky is latest and best.